Report: Elliott reported to camp overweight

[Idgit]

Who would you have picked at #4? Who, to you, was a better option at that selection given a) the available talent and b) the landscape of our roster as constructed prior to the start of the draft?

This is the question that none of you Zeke haters will ever answer with a convincing argument. Because he was literally the best player available at that selection.

edit: @Toruk_Makto would love to hear your cockamamy answer to this too.

I'd have traded down if I could, and then added a front-7 defender in the middle of the round (eg, Floyd, Rankins) and another with whatever we got in compensation and then looked to pickup somebody like Prosise or Perkins or Dixon later on. Failing that, I'd have taken Ramsey at 4. I would have taken Bosa before Zeke, too, if he were available.

And I'm pretty clearly not a Zeke hater just because I don't believe in taking a RB with the #4 pick overall with this offense already in place.

Now let me ask: how much production (how many yards and how many TDs) does Zeke have to get to justify using that much draft capital at RB on a team that's already a top running team but is sorely in need of defensive talent? Say for argument's sake we're able to get production from Alfred and company equal to his 2013 season (not is big rookie year, but year two). Ie, about the production McFadden would have had if we'd given him the snaps all year we started giving him in week 6. You're looking at a ~1300 yard/ 7 TD back. Zeke needs to outproduce that by a fair margin to offset the opportunity cost of not having, say, a decent rookie S and another first round.

And he needs to stay on the field, because you've got all that capital tied up in one pick where you could have spread it over two players, two contracts, two positions of need. All in a league where teams win by outpassing each other. Just not an effective use of limited resources.

 

[casmith07]

I'd have traded down if I could, and then added a front-7 defender in the middle of the round (eg, Floyd, Rankins) and another with whatever we got in compensation and then looked to pickup somebody like Prosise or Perkins or Dixon later on. Failing that, I'd have taken Ramsey at 4. I would have taken Bosa before Zeke, too, if he were available.

And I'm pretty clearly not a Zeke hater just because I don't believe in taking a RB with the #4 pick overall with this offense already in place.

Now let me ask: how much production (how many yards and how many TDs) does Zeke have to get to justify using that much draft capital at RB on a team that's already a top running team but is sorely in need of defensive talent? Say for argument's sake we're able to get production from Alfred and company equal to his 2013 season (not is big rookie year, but year two). Ie, about the production McFadden would have had if we'd given him the snaps all year we started giving him in week 6. You're looking at a ~1300 yard/ 7 TD back. Zeke needs to outproduce that by a fair margin to offset the opportunity cost of not having, say, a decent rookie S and another first round.

And he needs to stay on the field, because you've got all that capital tied up in one pick where you could have spread it over two players, two contracts, two positions of need. All in a league where teams win by outpassing each other. Just not an effective use of limited resources.

Here's the thing -- with the way the NFL rules are, and the way our roster has been constructed around the run and the offensive line, there is no player that you could've traded down for that would have provided the kind of impact necessary to carry us further than previously thought. Even less so with McFadden breaking his elbow after the fact.

Production, by yards and TDs, is something that I am not overly concerned with. I said it after DeMarco Murray left for Philadelphia -- I primarily want a running back that can step in and have the offense run as intended, similar to how it was run in 2014. The yardage and touchdown totals don't concern me as much as effectiveness of running, generally measured by yards per carry when examined in concert with yards per attempt in the passing game.

A "decent rookie S and another first round" would not have the same team-wide impact as Zeke would, even at 1300/7 as you suggested. 1300/7 from Zeke, along with another 1000 or so plus 7 from Alfred Morris is 2000+ (unlikely) with 14 rushing touchdowns on the year from the running back position. That's more than enough. It will allow the offense, as a whole, to run as intended. addition: which in turn allows the defense, as a whole, to run as intended and to look way, way better than it was on paper, similar to 2014. The defense also wasn't as terrible as everyone thinks last year.

Zeke Elliott is the pick that the team felt would make the entire team better, not just one position like adding a "decent rookie S" and some non-elite middle-1st talent on the defensive line. It's mind-boggling to me how far this is lost on so many around here. You guys act like the next DeMarcus Ware was just sitting there ready to be picked at any point - ever - in the last three drafts. It just hasn't been there. What's so wrong with taking BPA?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

you were right the first time...it is a complete cop out.....he 'hates' the pick but knows Elliott can be a huge difference maker....he just didn't want to spend the 4th to get him...well that was what it cost, too bad.......were Ramsay or Bosa worth the 4th but not Elliott.....it all because his pet cat didn't get picked or that we didn't take a terrible trade back

I do hate the pick. I wouldn't pick any RB in the 1st round. They get injured a lot. And it's the most fungible position in all of football. We turned Dmac into a 1k rusher with no passing game. Literally none. Alfred Morris looked like one of the top backs in the league the first two preseason games. Why? Because we have invested in our line.

We would have had a dominant rushing attack with a passing game if @casmith07 was our RB. We could have gotten Lamar Miller for 12M guaranteed. A ton of RBs with ability are always available in the middle rounds. It was an inefficient use of resources. It just was.

None of that negates the fact that Zeke is a really good football player. Why this is so hard to understand is amazing.

And yes I would have rather taken a DE or CB at 4. Those are harder positions to fill. They are more expensive in free agency. And great ones are not as routinely found in the latter rounds.

What part of opportunity cost don't you understand?

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Here's the thing -- with the way the NFL rules are, and the way our roster has been constructed around the run and the offensive line, there is no player that you could've traded down for that would have provided the kind of impact necessary to carry us further than previously thought. Even less so with McFadden breaking his elbow after the fact.

Production, by yards and TDs, is something that I am not overly concerned with. I said it after DeMarco Murray left for Philadelphia -- I primarily want a running back that can step in and have the offense run as intended, similar to how it was run in 2014. The yardage and touchdown totals don't concern me as much as effectiveness of running, generally measured by yards per carry when examined in concert with yards per attempt in the passing game.

A "decent rookie S and another first round" would not have the same team-wide impact as Zeke would, even at 1300/7 as you suggested. 1300/7 from Zeke, along with another 1000 or so plus 7 from Alfred Morris is 2000+ (unlikely) with 14 rushing touchdowns on the year from the running back position. That's more than enough. It will allow the offense, as a whole, to run as intended. addition: which in turn allows the defense, as a whole, to run as intended and to look way, way better than it was on paper, similar to 2014. The defense also wasn't as terrible as everyone thinks last year.

Zeke Elliott is the pick that the team felt would make the entire team better, not just one position like adding a "decent rookie S" and some non-elite middle-1st talent on the defensive line. It's mind-boggling to me how far this is lost on so many around here. You guys act like the next DeMarcus Ware was just sitting there ready to be picked at any point - ever - in the last three drafts. It just hasn't been there. What's so wrong with taking BPA?

I....I don't even know what your point is....other than only Zeke could make this offense run as intended. Or similiar to how it ran in 2014. And comparing it to 2014 as a benchmark is curious...because...you know...we had a 3rd round running back that year. But somehow we need a 1st round 4th overall running back this year? That seems...well...not like an intelligent bedrock for you to be building your argument on.

 

[Idgit]

Here's the thing -- with the way the NFL rules are, and the way our roster has been constructed around the run and the offensive line, there is no player that you could've traded down for that would have provided the kind of impact necessary to carry us further than previously thought. Even less so with McFadden breaking his elbow after the fact.

Production, by yards and TDs, is something that I am not overly concerned with. I said it after DeMarco Murray left for Philadelphia -- I primarily want a running back that can step in and have the offense run as intended, similar to how it was run in 2014. The yardage and touchdown totals don't concern me as much as effectiveness of running, generally measured by yards per carry when examined in concert with yards per attempt in the passing game.

A "decent rookie S and another first round" would not have the same team-wide impact as Zeke would, even at 1300/7 as you suggested. 1300/7 from Zeke, along with another 1000 or so plus 7 from Alfred Morris is 2000+ (unlikely) with 14 rushing touchdowns on the year from the running back position. That's more than enough. It will allow the offense, as a whole, to run as intended. addition: which in turn allows the defense, as a whole, to run as intended and to look way, way better than it was on paper, similar to 2014. The defense also wasn't as terrible as everyone thinks last year.

Zeke Elliott is the pick that the team felt would make the entire team better, not just one position like adding a "decent rookie S" and some non-elite middle-1st talent on the defensive line. It's mind-boggling to me how far this is lost on so many around here. You guys act like the next DeMarcus Ware was just sitting there ready to be picked at any point - ever - in the last three drafts. It just hasn't been there. What's so wrong with taking BPA?

Clearly, I didn't consider Zeke the best player available at #4. If the team did, after adjusting for their needs, then they should have stuck to their board and taking Zeke. I just don't happen to agree.

Either way, you can't just take the carries we'd otherwise give to Morris, double them, and conclude we'd end up with double the efficiency in the running game. There's a limited number of running situations in an NFL season. Even if you run wherever possible, there are limits. If you can get excellent production from a vet and a mid-rounder--and we would have--you don't need to spend the majority of your draft capital at that same position.

Meanwhile, we don't need to add a Demarcus Ware (and nobody said we need to add a Demarcus Ware) to improve the talent we're trotting out on defense. There were a bunch of players in the top 100 of the draft who'd have improved this defense significantly this upcoming season. We added one in Maliek Collins.

 

[Denim Chicken]

So now he's fat, and he smokes weed?

That doesn't add up.

Actually, it makes perfect sense.

 

[casmith07]

I do hate the pick. I wouldn't pick any RB in the 1st round. They get injured a lot. And it's the most fungible position in all of football. We turned Dmac into a 1k rusher with no passing game. Literally none. Alfred Morris looked like one of the top backs in the league the first two preseason games. Why? Because we have invested in our line.

We would have had a dominant rushing attack with a passing game if @casmith07 was our RB. We could have gotten Lamar Miller for 12M guaranteed. A ton of RBs with ability are always available in the middle rounds. It was an inefficient use of resources. It just was.

None of that negates the fact that Zeke is a really good football player. Why this is so hard to understand is amazing.

And yes I would have rather taken a DE or CB at 4. Those are harder positions to fill. They are more expensive in free agency. And great ones are not as routinely found in the latter rounds.

What part of opportunity cost don't you understand?

Remember when just anybody could play safety?

So we cut Ken Hamlin in favor of Alan Ball?

"a DE or CB" -- not impactful enough to propel this team to greatness nor would've been the best value at #4. You also fail, again, to offer specifics.

At least you finally admit that you hated the pick. Admission is the first step towards recovery.

 

[casmith07]

Clearly, I didn't consider Zeke the best player available at #4. If the team did, after adjusting for their needs, then they should have stuck to their board and taking Zeke. I just don't happen to agree.

Either way, you can't just take the carries we'd otherwise give to Morris, double them, and conclude we'd end up with double the efficiency in the running game. There's a limited number of running situations in an NFL season. Even if you run wherever possible, there are limits. If you can get excellent production from a vet and a mid-rounder--and we would have--you don't need to spend the majority of your draft capital at that same position.

Meanwhile, we don't need to add a Demarcus Ware (and nobody said we need to add a Demarcus Ware) to improve the talent we're trotting out on defense. There were a bunch of players in the top 100 of the draft who'd have improved this defense significantly this upcoming season. We added one in Maliek Collins.

I said that it was "unlikely" if you actually read my post.

Do you think it is entirely unlikely that a combination of Elliott and Morris cannot run for approximately 1800 yards, as did DeMarco Murray? We'll use your yardage standards since you like numbers. And since we're pretending the only thing that matters is stats, and nothing else involving 52 other guys on the roster.

Third - sorry. If you're going to spend a 4th or middle rounder on an edge rusher, he better be rated highly on the board. And you say we got Maliek Collins, a T100...so what is your complaint?? The need was addressed.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

Remember when just anybody could play safety?

So we cut Ken Hamlin in favor of Alan Ball?

"a DE or CB" -- not impactful enough to propel this team to greatness nor would've been the best value at #4. You also fail, again, to offer specifics.

At least you finally admit that you hated the pick. Admission is the first step towards recovery.

Please pay attention. Everybody on this board...except for you apparerently...know I did not like the pick. And it had nothing to do with the player. It had more to do with the position.

And you're so obtuse you don't realize that your Ball vs. Hamlin argument plays right into what I believe. Secondary players and edge rushers are not fungible positions. You need elite talent to get elite production from those positions. That is not true for the RB position as we proved last year and proved early this camp rejuvenating Morris and as we proved in 2014 landing Murray a monstrous season and deal. That is why you shouldn't waste premium resources at a position where you don't need it.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I said that it was "unlikely" if you actually read my post.

Do you think it is entirely unlikely that a combination of Elliott and Morris cannot run for approximately 1800 yards, as did DeMarco Murray? We'll use your yardage standards since you like numbers. And since we're pretending the only thing that matters is stats, and nothing else involving 52 other guys on the roster.

You are actually arguing we needed a 4th overall pick and a free agent signing to match the production of a 3rd round running back....all while not realizing just how damaging that is to your point. That's impressive.

 

[Idgit]

I said that it was "unlikely" if you actually read my post.

Do you think it is entirely unlikely that a combination of Elliott and Morris cannot run for approximately 1800 yards, as did DeMarco Murray? We'll use your yardage standards since you like numbers. And since we're pretending the only thing that matters is stats, and nothing else involving 52 other guys on the roster.

Third - sorry. If you're going to spend a 4th or middle rounder on an edge rusher, he better be rated highly on the board. And you say we got Maliek Collins, a T100...so what is your complaint?? The need was addressed.

I don't think it's unlikely a combination of Elliott/Morris could get that yardage. But that wasn't the point. The point was adding Elliott doesn't up the productivity you get from the RB position enough to justify making him your single most significant offseason acquisition. Not when we've got a middling-bad defensive team that needs multiple quality players. We were going to get good production at RB already and should have added to the talent elsewhere.

I like Collins. My complaint is we need a lot more help on defense than we got and we missed the best opportunity to address that in order to lock in an incremental improvement at RB.

I'll let you have the last word here because this isn't really a thread about our first round draft pick, anyway.

 

[AsthmaField]

I'd have traded down if I could, and then added a front-7 defender in the middle of the round (eg, Floyd, Rankins) and another with whatever we got in compensation and then looked to pickup somebody like Prosise or Perkins or Dixon later on. Failing that, I'd have taken Ramsey at 4. I would have taken Bosa before Zeke, too, if he were available.

And I'm pretty clearly not a Zeke hater just because I don't believe in taking a RB with the #4 pick overall with this offense already in place.

Now let me ask: how much production (how many yards and how many TDs) does Zeke have to get to justify using that much draft capital at RB on a team that's already a top running team but is sorely in need of defensive talent? Say for argument's sake we're able to get production from Alfred and company equal to his 2013 season (not is big rookie year, but year two). Ie, about the production McFadden would have had if we'd given him the snaps all year we started giving him in week 6. You're looking at a ~1300 yard/ 7 TD back. Zeke needs to outproduce that by a fair margin to offset the opportunity cost of not having, say, a decent rookie S and another first round.

And he needs to stay on the field, because you've got all that capital tied up in one pick where you could have spread it over two players, two contracts, two positions of need. All in a league where teams win by outpassing each other. Just not an effective use of limited resources.

Why you hate Zeke so much?

 

[Kaiser]

I do hate the pick. I wouldn't pick any RB in the 1st round.

So if another Adrian Peterson had been available in the late first when we drafted Byron Jones you would take pass on him?

I agree in the "RBs are interchangable" philosophy in general but Zeke was the top rated player in this draft on the Cowboys board. If you can get a special player at a skill position that will play ten years, you can't pass that up just so you can recycle guys like McFaddden and Randle.

 

[Kaiser]

Why you hate Zeke so much?

 

[Idgit]

Why you hate Zeke so much?

He looks better in a half-shirt than I do.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

So if another Adrian Peterson had been available in the late first when we drafted Byron Jones you would take pass on him?

I agree in the "RBs are interchangable" philosophy in general but Zeke was the top rated player in this draft on the Cowboys board. If you can get a special player at a skill position that will play ten years, you can't pass that up just so you can recycle guys like McFaddden and Randle.

It is more where in the first round though i'd be very wary spending even a late 1st. But if we got All Day where we got Jones lst year...you wouldn't hear me gripe really though I'd probably have gone in a different direction at the time.

But at 4th overall I feel it was a tragedy.

And I keep hearing about how Zeke was number 1 on the Cowboys board. And he was. But him and Ramsey (who i'd have taken) were in the same tier. There the draft philosophy no 1st round rb can win out without you having "deviated from your board."

 

[Kaiser]

But him and Ramsey (who i'd have taken) were in the same tier.

How do you know that? I thought Ramsey would be the pick at the time but I haven't heard where Dallas rated him.

And I said forever that the top QBs were totally overrated if they were taken top five.

 

[AsthmaField]

He looks better in a half-shirt than I do.

I seriously doubt that. I've seen the nudes floating around the interwebs.

 

[casmith07]

How do you know that? I thought Ramsey would be the pick at the time but I haven't heard where Dallas rated him.

And I said forever that the top QBs were totally overrated if they were taken top five.

Because he just knows, man.

 

[Idgit]

I seriously doubt that. I've seen the nudes floating around the interwebs.

Well, he did until he got fat, anyway.