Rewatching Brent

[CyberB0b]

Josh Brent, at his best, was a fringe starter in the NFL. How well do you expect him to play after being locked in a jail cell for so long?

 

[jterrell]

Josh Brent, at his best, was a fringe starter in the NFL. How well do you expect him to play after being locked in a jail cell for so long?

that is patently false.
he was among the best pure run stuffers in the league in 2012.
he was an emerging talent that looked like a long time fixture for us.

we wouldn't draft or even look at guys his size because we hated fatties but this guy was athletic enough to be the exception.
his ability to fill that role was based on size and strength and those are the least of the things you may lose in jail.

 

[CCBoy]

I can see someone calling him a drunk, but I wouldn't push his buttons on standing ground and fighting it out.

 

[Idgit]

Josh Brent, at his best, was a fringe starter in the NFL. How well do you expect him to play after being locked in a jail cell for so long?

I don't think this was the case, though. He had developed from a fringe player to an actual contributor. I don't think there's much doubt that he cost himself a lot of money (on top of a lot more important things) with his decision making. Even at the time, that was a fairly regular topic of debate, iirc. It's not like we're just concluding that now.

He was basically a player like Bishop who had the opportunity to work on his strength and his craft in the NFL for a few years. Those guys are pretty valuable, in the scheme of things.

 

[CCBoy]

He was an upscale model of Stephen Bowen...

 

[jterrell]

I don't think this was the case, though. He had developed from a fringe player to an actual contributor. I don't think there's much doubt that he cost himself a lot of money (on top of a lot more important things) with his decision making. Even at the time, that was a fairly regular topic of debate, iirc. It's not like we're just concluding that now.

He was basically a player like Bishop who had the opportunity to work on his strength and his craft in the NFL for a few years. Those guys are pretty valuable, in the scheme of things.

I think it pretty likely Brent is the best NT type we have day 1. I don't know if he ever reaches a Pro Bowl or gets recognized as a star type player but he is what Kevin Williams was to Minny.
Right now Dallas has zero players on the DL who require a double unless Melton is healthy and playing at his peak.

 

[CyberB0b]

that is patently false.
he was among the best pure run stuffers in the league in 2012.
he was an emerging talent that looked like a long time fixture for us.

we wouldn't draft or even look at guys his size because we hated fatties but this guy was athletic enough to be the exception.
his ability to fill that role was based on size and strength and those are the least of the things you may lose in jail.

What is patently false? The dude started 5 games in 3 seasons. I believe that was due to major injuries/lack of talent, as well. I think we have hyped him up a little more than what reality is.

I don't think this was the case, though. He had developed from a fringe player to an actual contributor. I don't think there's much doubt that he cost himself a lot of money (on top of a lot more important things) with his decision making. Even at the time, that was a fairly regular topic of debate, iirc. It's not like we're just concluding that now.

He was basically a player like Bishop who had the opportunity to work on his strength and his craft in the NFL for a few years. Those guys are pretty valuable, in the scheme of things.

It's not like he was tearing up the league before he left. He was a contributor, sure, but nothing special.

 

[Idgit]

I think it pretty likely Brent is the best NT type we have day 1. I don't know if he ever reaches a Pro Bowl or gets recognized as a star type player but he is what Kevin Williams was to Minny.
Right now Dallas has zero players on the DL who require a double unless Melton is healthy and playing at his peak.

I like him for us, but not as much as you apparently do. I agree, though, that other than Melton and Crawford, we got an empty cupboard and Brent represents a potential upgrade.

It's not like he was tearing up the league before he left. He was a contributor, sure, but nothing special.

Talking Cowboys told a story this week about a game Demarcus Ware played in against Tampa when John Gruden was there where he didn't have a sack, and only had a few tackles where Gruden left the game saying Demarcus Ware was the best player on the field. Now, Josh Brent isn't Demarcus Ware by any ridiculous stretch of the imagination, but the point is sometimes a player's impact on the game isn't fairly measured by sacks or tackles. If healthy and in the right space, Josh would fill a role for us that's still open, as far as I can tell. I'll take that at this point and be ok with it. Give me some impact plays by R McClain, and the rest of our starters, and we're going to have to make-do with that this season. It's going to suck, but it's still an upgrade for us.

 

[JoeKing]

What are you basing that on? Have you watched him play recently or just assuming? Not being smart asking in all seriousness.

Being out of football for as long as he has, it would be logical not to assume this guys picks up right were he left off. Even if he has stayed in good shape, I guarantee you he is not in football shape. It takes time to get that back so I hope the Cowboys coaching staff is patient with him.

 

[CyberB0b]

Talking Cowboys told a story this week about a game Demarcus Ware played in against Tampa when John Gruden was there where he didn't have a sack, and only had a few tackles where Gruden left the game saying Demarcus Ware was the best player on the field. Now, Josh Brent isn't Demarcus Ware by any ridiculous stretch of the imagination, but the point is sometimes a player's impact on the game isn't fairly measured by sacks or tackles. If healthy and in the right space, Josh would fill a role for us that's still open, as far as I can tell. I'll take that at this point and be ok with it. Give me some impact plays by R McClain, and the rest of our starters, and we're going to have to make-do with that this season. It's going to suck, but it's still an upgrade for us.

I didn't mention stats or tackles, because it is pretty irrelevant for a 2 gap 3-4 NT. The only competition Brent had was a beat up old Jay Ratliff, and he wasn't an impact player. I agree, he had potential, and he was a contributor, but I would rather try to develop guys like Bishop at this point. Brent's ceiling was never very high to begin with. I wouldn't expect anything out of him except as a rotational player, late in the year.

 

[jterrell]

What is patently false? The dude started 5 games in 3 seasons. I believe that was due to major injuries/lack of talent, as well. I think we have hyped him up a little more than what reality is.




It's not like he was tearing up the league before he left. He was a contributor, sure, but nothing special.

Brent was stuck behind an All-Pro in Ratliff and it isn't like he was going to play outside at DE.
When he got in the game he excelled and our run stuffing actually improved over when Ratliff played.
Brent was never going to be some JJ Watt but the 320 pound guys who actually get into the back field are insanely valued by NFL teams and he was doing that regularly.
As this thread details from the actual game tape.

 

[CCBoy]

'What is patently false? The dude started 5 games in 3 seasons. I believe that was due to major injuries/lack of talent, as well. I think we have hyped him up a little more than what reality is.'

That was the same period of time that saw the practice squad talent start to see playing time and working into starter roles. That was how Stephen Bowen went onto the carpet from the start. Back when salaries were out of control on older players. Remember Canty...Bowen replaced him as a slot fill. Brent was next in line.

 

[CyberB0b]

Brent was stuck behind an All-Pro in Ratliff and it isn't like he was going to play outside at DE.
When he got in the game he excelled and our run stuffing actually improved over when Ratliff played.
Brent was never going to be some JJ Watt but the 320 pound guys who actually get into the back field are insanely valued by NFL teams and he was doing that regularly.
As this thread details from the actual game tape.

Ratliff was an all pro in 2009, not 2012. Ratliff only played in 6 games in the 2012 season, and his only backup, as far as I can tell, was Josh Brent, who only started 5 games. I am not saying he had no talent, I am just saying I think the CZ hype train had a little too much coal burning. Like I said, at his best, he was a fringe NFL starter. I don't believe that is patently false. He won't be near that level, considering he has been in a jail cell and will be playing a different position.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Josh Brent, at his best, was a fringe starter in the NFL. How well do you expect him to play after being locked in a jail cell for so long?

At least come up with a counter example that involves football actually being played. Your characterization of his role neglects to mention that they guy putting on the 'fringe' was Jay Ratliff who made the pro bowl in Brents first two years.

Was there a game where he played poorly? I am sure in the 10 games he did play in he did not destroy the opposing C every time but if I could get the Brent that destroyed Baas then he would be starting on this roster.

The man gets push on double teams. Most guys kneel down and arch their back trying to hold on. He gets low pops the first guy trying to hit him and just absorbs the other guy. He is unbelievably strong. Hes got that but he has the agility so when the center and/or guard grab him and try to run down the line for the stretch play, he shuffles better and is still shoving them backwards into the area where the RB wants to try and make a cut. He is a nimble 320 lbs man.

He can anchor a run defense and after watching the PS game it is something we desperately need. Bishop and Coleman are not ready. Hayden is there with Alan Ball and Cory Proctor as the worst starters we have had on this team in the past decade.

And the question about how well off he will be after incarceration is valid. What if any training facilities were available to him? Has he been running at all? Nate Newton said he spoke with him and that he looked good. I have heard other reports that his weight is where it needs to be. Thats good but that does not tell us a clear picture of where he is athletically.

His strength would diminish being out of an NFL training program but where he is actually at we do not know.

 

[ConstantReboot]

I don't think this was the case, though. He had developed from a fringe player to an actual contributor. I don't think there's much doubt that he cost himself a lot of money (on top of a lot more important things) with his decision making. Even at the time, that was a fairly regular topic of debate, iirc. It's not like we're just concluding that now.

He was basically a player like Bishop who had the opportunity to work on his strength and his craft in the NFL for a few years. Those guys are pretty valuable, in the scheme of things.

I remember Josh Brent. He was a factor against the Giants in 2012. It was one reason that the Giants wasn't able to run against us even though they gave him the double team. Brent, if he is up to par on playing as he did in 2012 would help this team immensely. He would be that needed run stopper who would command double teams. That will open up a lot of 1 vs. 1 with Melton and Crawford on either side.

Sure he ran into some bad luck and got himself into jail. I say that everyone deserves a second chance. Especially a guy like Brent who may actually be a missing cog to our dline. With him back I can see a dline of Crawford, Brent, Melton, and Lawrence. It may look average at best but if they all reach their potential, thats not a bad Dline to start out with.

 

[CyberB0b]

At least come up with a counter example that involves football actually being played. Your characterization of his role neglects to mention that they guy putting on the 'fringe' was Jay Ratliff who made the pro bowl in Brents first two years.

Was there a game where he played poorly? I am sure in the 10 games he did play in he did not destroy the opposing C every time but if I could get the Brent that destroyed Baas then he would be starting on this roster.

The man gets push on double teams. Most guys kneel down and arch their back trying to hold on. He gets low pops the first guy trying to hit him and just absorbs the other guy. He is unbelievably strong. Hes got that but he has the agility so when the center and/or guard grab him and try to run down the line for the stretch play, he shuffles better and is still shoving them backwards into the area where the RB wants to try and make a cut. He is a nimble 320 lbs man.

He can anchor a run defense and after watching the PS game it is something we desperately need. Bishop and Coleman are not ready. Hayden is there with Alan Ball and Cory Proctor as the worst starters we have had on this team in the past decade.

And the question about how well off he will be after incarceration is valid. What if any training facilities were available to him? Has he been running at all? Nate Newton said he spoke with him and that he looked good. I have heard other reports that his weight is where it needs to be. Thats good but that does not tell us a clear picture of where he is athletically.

His strength would diminish being out of an NFL training program but where he is actually at we do not know.

Jay Ratliff played in 6 games in 2012. Josh Brent was his backup. Josh Brent only started in 5 games that season. I never claimed that Josh Brent was a talentless hack, just that he was never a premier player in the league. I think that is a pretty fair assessment. Did he have potential? Sure. A lot of that has now been wasted, however. Devoting resources to get a guy back to a fringe starter level is a waste of time and is counter productive, when even the 2012 version of Brent could easily be replaced.

Is he better than Nick Hayden? Probably, but that isn't really saying much, is it? The fact that Nick Hayden hasn't been supplanted by one of the guys we have brought in is more damning of our front office than anything. The sad truth is that we are pinning our hopes on a guy who was a C-D level talent in the league, who has been in prison for over a year. It reeks of desperation.

1 techniques aren't really all that important in this defense, and I think even Marinelli has stated something that echos this sentiment.

 

[jterrell]

Ratliff was an all pro in 2009, not 2012. Ratliff only played in 6 games in the 2012 season, and his only backup, as far as I can tell, was Josh Brent, who only started 5 games. I am not saying he had no talent, I am just saying I think the CZ hype train had a little too much coal burning. Like I said, at his best, he was a fringe NFL starter. I don't believe that is patently false. He won't be near that level, considering he has been in a jail cell and will be playing a different position.

You have a pretty poor overall understand of all things related to the guy's actual play on the field.

Firstly, he wasn't some spare lacking potential.
He was on draft boards as a top 100 guy after his true sophomore season where he had a bunch of tackles for loss and at times was unblockable.
Dallas got him when they did because he entered the draft with a DWI.

Secondly, Ratliff was a Pro Bowler in every year UNTIL 2012 when he missed all but the first 6 games.
Brent who only played in 12 games was plugged in after Ratliff went down the the NT play IMPROVED.
Yes, partly because Ratliff was declining but also because Brent brought actual run stuffing and 2 gap control to the team.
Ratliff was 24 at the time. He entered the league at 22.
The other NT was Lissemore who is still a starter in the league for the defense that just kicked our teeth in tonight.

You wanna go back and tell me Tyron Smith in year 2 or 3 was maxed out on potential? That's insane.
Human beings gain size and strength as they near 30. For a run stuffer Brent wasn't near maxing out.

Brent is a better football prospect right now than any DT on the roster and it isn't even close.
Same as Spencer is our best prospect at DE even though he's a long shot to make it back to where he was.
Rusty, banged up guys with talent at least had some talent to start with.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Ratliff was an all pro in 2009, not 2012. Ratliff only played in 6 games in the 2012 season, and his only backup, as far as I can tell, was Josh Brent, who only started 5 games. I am not saying he had no talent, I am just saying I think the CZ hype train had a little too much coal burning. Like I said, at his best, he was a fringe NFL starter. I don't believe that is patently false. He won't be near that level, considering he has been in a jail cell and will be playing a different position.

Are you actually going to talk about actual play on the field or are you just intent on making comparisons to locomotives and nonsense like that? What you are doing is emotional appeal and nothing else. Then you accuse others of hyping? What do you think hype is?

The point of the OP was to talk about specific examples of Brent's play. I really have been hoping that somebody would actually look at the games themselves and have a substantive discussion. Looks like that hope was in vain.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Jay Ratliff played in 6 games in 2012. Josh Brent was his backup. Josh Brent only started in 5 games that season. I never claimed that Josh Brent was a talentless hack, just that he was never a premier player in the league. I think that is a pretty fair assessment. Did he have potential? Sure. A lot of that has now been wasted, however. Devoting resources to get a guy back to a fringe starter level is a waste of time and is counter productive, when even the 2012 version of Brent could easily be replaced.

Is he better than Nick Hayden? Probably, but that isn't really saying much, is it? The fact that Nick Hayden hasn't been supplanted by one of the guys we have brought in is more damning of our front office than anything. The sad truth is that we are pinning our hopes on a guy who was a C-D level talent in the league, who has been in prison for over a year. It reeks of desperation.

1 techniques aren't really all that important in this defense, and I think even Marinelli has stated something that echos this sentiment.

The 1 is the anchor of the run defense. Not important? I don't think Maranelli said what you think he did.

Nick Hayden is starting on this team right now.

More emotional appeal like 'sad,' 'fringe,' 'waste of time,' and 'c-d level talent.' You actually have interest in talking about football as its played on the field?

 

[CyberB0b]

Are you actually going to talk about actual play on the field or are you just intent on making comparisons to locomotives and nonsense like that? What you are doing is emotional appeal and nothing else. Then you accuse others of hyping? What do you think hype is?

The point of the OP was to talk about specific examples of Brent's play. I really have been hoping that somebody would actually look at the games themselves and have a substantive discussion. Looks like that hope was in vain.

Which of the 5 starts in his 3 year career would you like me to review? I'll make a video tomorrow. The Giants?