Rhonda Rousey punched repeatedly

[CalPolyTechnique]

Obviously, you didn't get my point. No one knew how to combat BJJ when he first came along. The family picked him because he was the weakest of the bunch. Rickson was the family champion at the time.

And so that makes him a fraud?

 

[Stryker44]

No. Royce never possessed the skill set required to compete in the modern UFC with the current rules. Royce in his prime would get absolutely schooled by Nate Diaz, nevermind Nick. He would have almost literally no chance of winning. And Nate and Nick are hardly the greatest fighters in the world in their respective weight classes, although they are always great fun to watch.

Did you see Gracie put down Dan Severn??? Severn was a 260 lb wrestler. Did you see him put down Shamrock, the Pancrease Shootfighting World Champion?

 

[JDSmith]

Did you see Gracie put down Dan Severn??? Severn was a 260 lb wrestler. Did you see him put down Shamrock, the Pancrease Shootfighting World Champion?

Yes, I saw them live on PPV. Even UFC 1. And I was studying BJJ with the first American to receive a black belt in (at the time) Gracie Jiu Jitsu in 1994. I'm well aware of what Royce did and how he did it. We were jumping up and down and screaming in my house when he went for the triangle on Severn when the announcer was oblivious to the submission attempt.

Royce was on the bottom for 15 straight minutes against Severn. Severn had no idea what to do in the guard, and Royce was a master at minimizing damage while he had someone in it. Severn also didn't have a clue how to defend a triangle, which is something any decent blue belt knows intimately.

Say Royce fought Nate, how would he win? Nate could box him all day, stuff his take down attempts (that leg stomp to the clinch stopped working for Royce about 1995), and if they hit the ground Nate would submit him. Royce was never great at BJJ, as evidenced by the fact that he never even won any competitions in Brazil, and the way he got choked unconscious by Wallid Ismail with a clock choke in a grappling match. Even when he won the UFC Royce couldn't last one minute against Rickson, Craig Kukuk (my instructor) was in Torrance for almost a decade studying and saw them roll countless times. Royce was not an elite Jiu Jitsu practitioner, but he was good enough that he could appear to be one going against guys who didn't understand BJJ. His Jiu Jitsu was better for combat than many of the guys who came out of Carlson's side of the family, at least defensively, because theirs was more of a top game with less reliance on the guard. So against a good wrestler a lot of Carlson's guys would struggle more battling for position - because their guard games were relatively weak compared to a guy like Royce who played that game all day. But those same guys would roll Royce, because they'd pass his guard and submit him.

And if you put Royce at any point in his life against some of the top guys today he'd get killed. There are a lot more elite black belts around now, because the success of the UFC created an entire generation of BJJ practitioners. And those guys are rolling against each other, Nate and Nick are rolling with Kron (Rickson's youngest son) all the time. For them, Royce's best day would seem like child's play because of the level of competition they're going against daily.

BTW, Kron went to 4 - 0 in his MMA career on New Year's Eve (in Japan, so a day earlier here), with a submission victory over Tatsuya Kawijiri. Go watch it on youtube if you want to see what high level combat Jiu Jitsu looks like, and remember that the guy he was fighting is vastly superior to anyone who entered UFC 1 - 4 (particularly 1). Kron's game is actually very similar to Royce's in that he relies on the basics rather than any crazy sport derived guard work. But Kron does it like Rickson, and it's on another level than Royce's ever was - which is why Kron can use it to submit the very best guys in the world in grappling matches.

 

[CyberB0b]

And so that makes him a fraud?

No. Ronda Rousey isn't a fraud. Do you get it now?

 

[Sarge]

Fork.

 

[mattjames2010]

When someone says, "I was contemplated suicide" directly after a fight. They don't have it mentally. She's mentally broken if she was ever mentally strong.

 

[tyke1doe]

I don't think she's a fraud.

She was good at what she did. Judo.

Good sport, but hopelessly outclassed when against serious fighting and athletes.

When she started there weren't many women that could 'fight.' She probably had a hand in bringing in types of people that could take her out by making the sport popular for woman.

Now that athletes with better skill set than her are in the sport she needs to evolve or continue to get wrecked.

This has been my position regarding Rousey's "dominance." You said it better than I did.

 

[tyke1doe]

I remember when it was believed that she could take on money mayweather... good times

Anyone with a lick of sense and any fighting skills realize she was blowing smoke. I said at another site that Floyd would kill her, and the male women libers wanted to castigate me for not giving Rousey a chance to beat Mayweather. Even though she may be able to beat him at judo, Mayweather is a world-class boxer (very few if any of the MMA fighters are), and he has the footwork not only to dodge punches but take downs by Rousey. And his accuracy with punches, he'd knock her out before she could get in reach of him.

 

[tyke1doe]

Lol! That was kinda outta the blue. We use Gracie techniques in hand-to-hand training in the Army in basic and in PT (if you have a squared away platoon SGT that goes to the course in Colorado )

Gracie is an All Time Great. Didn't Shamrock, in his prime, tap out vs. Gracie???

Yes, he made Ken Shamrock tap out.

 

[Trouty]

Yes, he made Ken Shamrock tap out.

Post 34, my brother, Tyke

 

[tyke1doe]

Royce Gracie would beat anybody in the UFC right now in his prime. So would Rickson and Gokor.

I don't know about that. MMA at its infancy was about one style, meaning it pit jiu jitsu experts against boxers against Muay Thai boxers against wrestlers against judo against sumo, etc. Now, a fighter has to be more well rounded. I don't know if Royce beats a guy like Randy Couture or Anderson Silva or Jon Bones Jones in their prime.
But I will say that Royce was a tough son of a gun. Matt Hughes crucifixed Royce and started hitting him with a barrage of punches, but Royce wouldn't tap. (If my recollection is correct.) The ref had to stop the match.

 

[tyke1doe]

Post 34, my brother, Tyke

I can't see the video because it's blocked at work.

 

[tyke1doe]

Yes, I saw them live on PPV. Even UFC 1. And I was studying BJJ with the first American to receive a black belt in (at the time) Gracie Jiu Jitsu in 1994. I'm well aware of what Royce did and how he did it. We were jumping up and down and screaming in my house when he went for the triangle on Severn when the announcer was oblivious to the submission attempt.

Royce was on the bottom for 15 straight minutes against Severn. Severn had no idea what to do in the guard, and Royce was a master at minimizing damage while he had someone in it. Severn also didn't have a clue how to defend a triangle, which is something any decent blue belt knows intimately.

Say Royce fought Nate, how would he win? Nate could box him all day, stuff his take down attempts (that leg stomp to the clinch stopped working for Royce about 1995), and if they hit the ground Nate would submit him. Royce was never great at BJJ, as evidenced by the fact that he never even won any competitions in Brazil, and the way he got choked unconscious by Wallid Ismail with a clock choke in a grappling match. Even when he won the UFC Royce couldn't last one minute against Rickson, Craig Kukuk (my instructor) was in Torrance for almost a decade studying and saw them roll countless times. Royce was not an elite Jiu Jitsu practitioner, but he was good enough that he could appear to be one going against guys who didn't understand BJJ. His Jiu Jitsu was better for combat than many of the guys who came out of Carlson's side of the family, at least defensively, because theirs was more of a top game with less reliance on the guard. So against a good wrestler a lot of Carlson's guys would struggle more battling for position - because their guard games were relatively weak compared to a guy like Royce who played that game all day. But those same guys would roll Royce, because they'd pass his guard and submit him.

And if you put Royce at any point in his life against some of the top guys today he'd get killed. There are a lot more elite black belts around now, because the success of the UFC created an entire generation of BJJ practitioners. And those guys are rolling against each other, Nate and Nick are rolling with Kron (Rickson's youngest son) all the time. For them, Royce's best day would seem like child's play because of the level of competition they're going against daily.

BTW, Kron went to 4 - 0 in his MMA career on New Year's Eve (in Japan, so a day earlier here), with a submission victory over Tatsuya Kawijiri. Go watch it on youtube if you want to see what high level combat Jiu Jitsu looks like, and remember that the guy he was fighting is vastly superior to anyone who entered UFC 1 - 4 (particularly 1). Kron's game is actually very similar to Royce's in that he relies on the basics rather than any crazy sport derived guard work. But Kron does it like Rickson, and it's on another level than Royce's ever was - which is why Kron can use it to submit the very best guys in the world in grappling matches.

Dang, that Kron is nasty.

 

[maxdallasfan]

It's the same reason Tito Ortiz and Matt Hughes couldn't win anymore. Strikers learned how to defend the take down.

Unfortunately, Tito, Matt and Rhonda weren't able to become excellent strikers. Thus, their downfalls.

 

[JoeKing]

There is something wrong with seeing a woman get repeatedly punched in the face and cheering about it. That was brutal and I can not condone it.

 

[jterrell]

The sport is so varied and complex, I wonder, really, if we'll ever see a fighter pull off a Mayweather and go 40+-0?

Even the best ever (imo) Liddell, lost.

To those calling Rousey a fraud, can you please explain exactly what it is that makes her a fraud?

@DallasDomination I was at Liddell/Tito 2. It was fantastic!

Just like Silva got knocked out by Weidman every fighter runs into kryptonite and once exposed the game plan is there as well as the doubt.

Ronda gave a lot of the s[port but she does appear to be done.

She trained striking with the Diaz brothers and their coach. She's had training. But she's never gonna be a natural striker. She can spend 10 years becoming a better actress.

 

[CATCH17]

Loses.

She blazed a trail for women in the sport for sure.... but was/is she a fraud?

Maybe just a case of failing to adapt?

Of course she was a fraud.

That's been made pretty clear.


There is a reason judo doesn't work in the mens division and if she can't get you in a scramble situation to slap on an arm bar then she will struggle against and girl that has actual striking skills and a little take down defense.

 

[CATCH17]

The point of MMA is that you incorporate all of these practices. The fact that she is such a weak striker and defender shows that she was a paper champion. She is a Judo champion, and that is all she will ever be. Her game is so uneven it isn't even funny. That isn't to even suggest that the women beating her are champions in their own right. I'm sure that title will change hands often.

I think Nunes actually keeps that belt for awhile.

She skilled in several different arts, hits like a dude, and trains at a legit camp.

 

[CATCH17]

When someone says, "I was contemplated suicide" directly after a fight. They don't have it mentally. She's mentally broken if she was ever mentally strong.

Her judo coach said she doesn't handle adversity well.

She's a sore winner, loser, and just a grade A d-bag.

I can understand people liking her that are drive by MMA fans but I can't understand how anyone could like her that follows the sport close.

 

[CATCH17]

What a tool bag.