Rico still dealing with concussion symptoms

[xwalker]

here is a simpler answer. if you can spread the mechanical shock reasonably evently from a 1 ms impact to a 10 ms impact, then you are likely reducing the damage by `10X. it is the high frequency components that do the most damage.

sounds like u r a mechanical guy. so picture the fourier spectrum. if you spread a 1 milli-sec square wave to a 10 milli-sec rounded waveform, you are getting a big win because amplitude is going way down.

My degrees are in Electrical Engineering and Math but racecars and motorcycles were a hobby for many years.

I built a street drag-race car when I was 16 that ran an 11 second quarter mile and would pull the front wheels off the ground.

I could design electronics to measure the forces on the helmet and output control signals to control some type of electro-mechanical damping system. It would create the Fourier transform of the force measurement and output basically the inverse of that such that they cancel each other out. That's basically how Active Noise Cancellation headphones work. Creating the electro-mechanical damping system would be a bigger challenge.

Where an Active system would likely help the most in on the rebound effect. Once the head stops initially, it's going to oscillate within the helmet to some extent. That's where the Active System could really control the high frequency Fourier components.

 

[waldoputty]

My degrees are in Electrical Engineering and Math but racecars and motorcycles were a hobby for many years.

I built a street drag-race car when I was 16 that ran an 11 second quarter mile and would pull the front wheels off the ground.

I could design electronics to measure the forces on the helmet and output control signals to control some type of electro-mechanical damping system. It would create the Fourier transform of the force measurement and output basically the inverse of that such that they cancel each other out. That's basically how Active Noise Cancellation headphones work. Creating the electro-mechanical damping system would be a bigger challenge.

Where an Active system would likely help the most in on the rebound effect. Once the head stops initially, it's going to oscillate within the helmet to some extent. That's where the Active System could really control the high frequency Fourier components.

i still think several layers of crumble zones would do wonders without active cancellation.
the primary reason is if close to 10X improvement is actually needed, then football playing would be knocking all the players out in every game already.

yes, the actuator would be the primary challenge.
you need something that is very high bandwidth to counteract the high frequency components. so the only 2 things i can think of that would be arrays of piezo transducers and arrays of mini air bag. piezo transducers may lack the adequate amplitude. this type of prototype would be very expensive, but could be doable in production volumes.

 

[xwalker]

i still think several layers of crumble zones would do wonders without active cancellation.
the primary reason is if close to 10X improvement is actually needed, then football playing would be knocking all the players out in every game already.

yes, the actuator would be the primary challenge.
you need something that is very high bandwidth to counteract the high frequency components. so the only 2 things i can think of that would be arrays of piezo transducers and arrays of mini air bag. piezo transducers may lack the adequate amplitude. this type of prototype would be very expensive, but could be doable in production volumes.

The 'crumple' has to return to it's original state for a helmet which is unlike the crumple zones in cars.

Ideally the outter shell would be more like a basketball. Imagine kicking a basketball vs kicking a helmet. The basketball has much more "give" and won't break your foot yet the basketball has enough strength that it won't crush on impact.

 

[waldoputty]

The 'crumple' has to return to it's original state for a helmet which is unlike the crumple zones in cars.

Ideally the outter shell would be more like a basketball. Imagine kicking a basketball vs kicking a helmet. The basketball has much more "give" and won't break your foot yet the basketball has enough strength that it won't crush on impact.

well they could have 1 or more outer layer(s) that is easily replaced that does not return to its original state like bubble wrap but with a tougher skin. the crumple zones i am thinking of could have layers of increasing toughness before crumpling as you dig further into the isolation.

in my previous group's microstructures, we would often build in microsprings that would provide shock absorption.

 

[waldoputty]

The 'crumple' has to return to it's original state for a helmet which is unlike the crumple zones in cars.

Ideally the outter shell would be more like a basketball. Imagine kicking a basketball vs kicking a helmet. The basketball has much more "give" and won't break your foot yet the basketball has enough strength that it won't crush on impact.

well, piezo thin films can now be deposited by sol-gel so it could provide shock sensing and compensation if adequate amplitude is available. theoretically they would form an x-y array all over the helmet underneath the crumple zones.

here is an example of multilayer film stack to protect computer screens. in this case, the films are transparent.

https://www.celicious.com/screen-protector/impact.html

 

[waldoputty]

here is an example of a patent https://www.google.ch/patents/US20140173810.
this requires good engineering but not rocket science.
the NFL has no excuse in not spending a lot of $ to help protect the players.
bozos in league office are probably the biggest impediment in having investment made in the area.
the illustration with springs representing an elastic/spring material:

 

[Iago33]

Do you remember the player that had an outer shell that would pop off when he got hit really hard? It was a Bills WR. I think it was Andre Reed.

If the helmet can get bigger without adding weight, then they could do more.

Similar to what you mentioned before, when the players helment and head are travelling in one direction, the point at which the helmet/head first come to a stop in that direction is the key. How long from impact to initial stop or reversal of travel? In your example that time is 1ms for the helmet but 10ms for the head.

That difference should be much higher for a race car because there is much more space to work with. Having said that, race cars are travelling faster than football players.

Don Beebee, I think

 

[xwalker]

Don Beebee, I think

The internet says it was a Bills Safety but I'm almost certain a WR wore one for some period of time.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/arti...shunned-for-his-padded-helmet-in-the-1990s-is

 

[Iago33]

The internet says it was a Bills Safety but I'm almost certain a WR wore one for some period of time.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/arti...shunned-for-his-padded-helmet-in-the-1990s-is

Kelso may have worn one, but Beebe did, too.

 

[xwalker]

Don Beebee, I think

Beebee confirmed.
http://williampennmanship.blogspot.com/2009/12/beebe-to-loan-westbrook-padded-helmet.html?m=1

 

[xwalker]

Kelso may have worn one, but Beebe did, too.

Looks like I posted about this,in 2013 and already forgot. I did have a concussion in 1978...

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/concussions-and-football-gear.254114/

 

[Nightman]

Neck rolls and natural grass

 

[Doc50]

I have none, so I guess you're right, he's fine. It's perfectly OK to play a professional football game a week after getting knocked unconscious. He has no increased risk of further damage. Because theveryone NFL is always above board on this sort of matter.

Doctors and professionals are not immune to scandal or being influenced by big powerful organizations. There are still doctors and researchers trying to convince us cigarettes aren't the cause of lung. And the NFL itself is complicit in this area. I have personal experience with the problem in the NHL area.

This issue is actually very close to me for personal reasons. I just don't want to see him suffer the fate of far too many who gave blazed this trail in the past. I would always, always, always, opt for super conservative treatment in any case of concussion. I was not clamoring for Sean Lee to return anytime soon after his.

Of course, concern for health should be first and foremost — we’re talking about games, and physical sacrifice should not have to be a part of that.

Loss of consciousness is referred to in medicine as a syncopal episode, the most common of which is vaso-vagal faint, which we routinely see as “passing out”. When sustaining a blow to the head and neck, cranial nerves and baroreceptors are momentarily affected, which are likely to at least partially activate this system.
Therefore, for this and other reasons, loss of consciousness by itself is not a good indicator of brain trauma.

In sustaining a concussion, damage occurs to brain cells and vasculature. The type and extent of damage determines how long neurologic effects are present, how much regeneration has to take place. Most post concussive symptoms last hours to days; some last weeks to months.
We have no definitive data that establishes a safe limit for cumulative concussive effects, i.e, a
system that measures total concussions and recuperative time, with known stages of increasing danger. This is being extensively studied, though, associated with the CTE analyses. One might presume that these stages of risk will soon be determined.

Decisions in medicine are made based on a preponderance of evidence, much like decisions we all make every day. If a huge tobacco company wants to invest billions trying to prove tobacco is safe (and they’re not), then they can do that, but it will not be reproducible in other studies and will not be accepted as viable science. Fear and distrust of the medical system due to conspiracy or payola is unwarranted.

 

[Bohuntr97]

well they could have 1 or more outer layer(s) that is easily replaced that does not return to its original state like bubble wrap but with a tougher skin. the crumple zones i am thinking of could have layers of increasing toughness before crumpling as you dig further into the isolation.

in my previous group's microstructures, we would often build in microsprings that would provide shock absorption.

You and XWalker are so far above my pay grade it's rediculous. I'm trying to figure out why there's four football games, on different channels and different networks yet they all manage to be on a commercial at the exact same time

 

[waldoputty]

You and XWalker are so far above my pay grade it's rediculous. I'm trying to figure out why there's four football games, on different channels and different networks yet they all manage to be on a commercial at the exact same time

dont worry about the fancy tech terms. you can think of it very simply. the point of the cushioning is like having a spring. when the shock happens, a lot of the shock's energy is used to compress the spring. that spring loading takes time, so the energy of the shock is applied to the head over a long period of time. by spreading out the shock energy, it is much less damaging.

 

[Bohuntr97]

dont worry about the fancy tech terms. you can think of it very simply. the point of the cushioning is like having a spring. when the shock happens, a lot of the shock's energy is used to compress the spring. that spring loading takes time, so the energy of the shock is applied to the head over a long period of time. by spreading out the shock energy, it is much less damaging.

Yeah, that's where I was going with the racing theme. Most of it is about transfering the energy of impact away from the driver.

 

[Beast_from_East]

Quick story....

I had a mild concussion a couple of years back, was working at a job site and a steel support leg (a steel beam about a foot long) fell from the 3rd floor of the building site and landed on my head. Put a giant dent on the top of my hard hat and gave me a mild concussion. I had headaches, dizziness, blurred vision, and nausea for about 3 days and then they slowly started going away. After about a week, I was totally symptom free and the company doctor cleared me to go back to work. He said if I was not wearing my hard hat that I probably would not be here right now...............valuable lesson guys, wear yall's hard hats!!!

 

[Melonfeud]

The most recent time I (remember) getting clocked was about 3 years ago as I was putzing around with a bigassed heavy anvil, moving it, and had a solid tired steel appliance dolly, I had my left knee holding it up(the dolly) nearly vertical and dropped that anvil down on it's plate,well it was about 2-3" from being flat on the ground when I'd dropped that anvil and it shot up straight vertical then and clocked me right up along the left side of my head,,,ya, that was a rough one, not as bad as being k.o.'d by my mule that one time but it still hurts just thinking about

 

[CalPolyTechnique]

My degrees are in Electrical Engineering and Math but racecars and motorcycles were a hobby for many years.

I built a street drag-race car when I was 16 that ran an 11 second quarter mile and would pull the front wheels off the ground.

I could design electronics to measure the forces on the helmet and output control signals to control some type of electro-mechanical damping system. It would create the Fourier transform of the force measurement and output basically the inverse of that such that they cancel each other out. That's basically how Active Noise Cancellation headphones work. Creating the electro-mechanical damping system would be a bigger challenge.

Where an Active system would likely help the most in on the rebound effect. Once the head stops initially, it's going to oscillate within the helmet to some extent. That's where the Active System could really control the high frequency Fourier components.

I disagree.

 

[xwalker]

I disagree.