Romo Letting the Play Clock Always Run Down

[Idgit]

Its easy to claim the other side is incorrect, saying they don't have factual support for their claims, when it is impossible to have factual evidence to support those claims. Last time I checked, the NFL doesn't keep stats on when the QB takes each snap.

Its something that someone who watches a lot of football can notice.. not something that needs to be analyzed ad nauseam. Its pretty clear to me based on the heavy amount of football I've watched in the past decade, that Romo does wait until there is a second or two left on the playclock to snap the ball MUCH more often than any other QB I've seen in recent years.

Now, does that mean he's a bad QB? Does that mean he has trouble reading a defense? Does he have trouble leading his team?

None of these things are true just because he does take a long time to snap the ball. It could be any number of reasons for why it continues to happen, but it does give the defense a bit of an advantage, and for whatever reason it keeps happening, it needs to stop.

If we need to get smarter players on this team, if Tony needs to see things quicker at the line, if we need to get a new play caller, whatever.. it just needs to stop.

None of that changes the point that if it's not supported by evidence, it's nothing more than an opinion. And opinions are just fine, but they are what they are. It's possible to disprove any opinion, given the proper facts.

And whether or not it's something the NFL itself measures isn't relevant.

That aside, QBs wait to the end of the play clock, not because it takes them so long to read the defense. They do it because at the end of the play clock the defense has to be set, and it's not until then that the QB is able to read what they're intending to do and take advantage of it.

And it doesn't need to stop. It's probably not even in the top ten on the list of things that could change for us offensively to make us more productive.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

None of that changes the point that if it's not supported by evidence, it's nothing more than an opinion. And opinions are just fine, but they are what they are. It's possible to disprove any opinion, given the proper facts.

And whether or not it's something the NFL itself measures isn't relevant.

That aside, QBs wait to the end of the play clock, not because it takes them so long to read the defense. They do it because at the end of the play clock the defense has to be set, and it's not until then that the QB is able to read what they're intending to do and take advantage of it.

And it doesn't need to stop. It's probably not even in the top ten on the list of things that could change for us offensively to make us more productive.

Yet, not all QB's wait most of the game until there is a second or two left on the play clock to snap the ball. Kind of throws a wrench in that logic.

 

[Idgit]

Yet, not all QB's wait most of the game until there is a second or two left on the play clock to snap the ball. Kind of throws a wrench in that logic.

No, it doesn't.

There are plenty of different ways to attack a defense. Maybe you want to catch them before they're set. Maybe you just want to dictate the flow of the game. Maybe you don't think your QB's strength is diagnosing the defense on the fly. It doesn't follow at all that every team has to do it in order for it to be an effective technique that we do on purpose.

How 'bout we work on stuff like red zone offense, short yardage running game, or our edge pass protection before worrying about how the offense philosophically prefers to use the duration of the snap clock?

 

[RoyTheHammer]

No, it doesn't.

There are plenty of different ways to attack a defense. Maybe you want to catch them before they're set. Maybe you just want to dictate the flow of the game. Maybe you don't think your QB's strength is diagnosing the defense on the fly. It doesn't follow at all that every team has to do it in order for it to be an effective technique that we do on purpose.

How 'bout we work on stuff like red zone offense, short yardage running game, or our edge pass protection before worrying about how the offense philosophically prefers to use the duration of the snap clock?

How about we work on all of the things you just talked about, play clock use included? Im sure all of those things mentioned would help us become a better offensive unit.. because im sick of wasting talent, year after year.

 

[Idgit]

How about we work on all of the things you just talked about, play clock use included? Im sure all of those things mentioned would help us become a better offensive unit.. because im sick of wasting talent, year after year.

Oh, because we can't even demonstrate that how the team chooses to use the play clock is even a problem. It might even be helping up.

And because time is limited, so we should tackle the higher order problems first.

And because this offense is pretty efficient prior to getting down to red zone scoring, where the play clock isn't likely to be any more of a problem than it is between the 20's, so, if it ain't broke, don't waste time pretending to fix it.

I'm sick of wasting talent, too. Let's work on getting some turnovers and not turning it over as much, and then at scoring on those extra possessions from the 20 yard line on in.

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Oh, because we can't even demonstrate that how the team chooses to use the play clock is even a problem. It might even be helping up.

And because time is limited, so we should tackle the higher order problems first.

And because this offense is pretty efficient prior to getting down to red zone scoring, where the play clock isn't likely to be any more of a problem than it is between the 20's, so, if it ain't broke, don't waste time pretending to fix it.

I'm sick of wasting talent, too. Let's work on getting some turnovers and not turning it over as much, and then at scoring on those extra possessions from the 20 yard line on in.

Your order of problems may not be exactly what the team has. I agree with most of your points, but considering no other team in the league has their QB wait until a second or two is left on the play clock to snap the ball for a majority of their possessions, assuming we're doing that on purpose I guess, it may not be something that's productive for this offense.

As I said earlier, when its 3rd and 8 and there's one second left on the play clock, that is CLEARLY an advantage to the defense. And that's not the only situation where it is.

 

[Frozen700]

How about we work on all of the things you just talked about, play clock use included? Im sure all of those things mentioned would help us become a better offensive unit.. because im sick of wasting talent, year after year.

Then stop being sick

 

[Idgit]

...As I said earlier, when its 3rd and 8 and there's one second left on the play clock, that is CLEARLY an advantage to the defense. And that's not the only situation where it is.

Obvious passing down. High likelihood they're bringing pressure, and you don't see the positive in letting your QB know what the defensive set is going to be on the snap? As I've said, it's not so clearly a disadvantage, since it doesn't seem to hurt our passing game so much. I'd much rather concentrate on things we don't do well that actually correlate with scoring points.

 

[Frozen700]

Obvious passing down. High likelihood they're bringing pressure, and you don't see the positive in letting your QB know what the defensive set is going to be on the snap? As I've said, it's not so clearly a disadvantage, since it doesn't seem to hurt our passing game so much. I'd much rather concentrate on things we don't do well that actually correlate with scoring points.

Agreed...

 

[RoyTheHammer]

Obvious passing down. High likelihood they're bringing pressure, and you don't see the positive in letting your QB know what the defensive set is going to be on the snap? As I've said, it's not so clearly a disadvantage, since it doesn't seem to hurt our passing game so much. I'd much rather concentrate on things we don't do well that actually correlate with scoring points.

I see the advantage of figuring out what the defensive set is going to be. My point is if we don't do it more quickly, you're negating that advantage, because with one second left on the play clock, obvious passing downs, the defense gets the quick jump and now has an advantage of their own.

 

[Little Jr]

I would like to see our o dictate what the d does instead of letting the d dictate what the o does.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Do you know the difference between a fact and an opinion?

Making the claim that all of those other QB's don't let the play clock run down near as much as Romo is not an opinion. The individual that made that claim stated it as though it was truth, or fact. If such a claim cannot be backed up by some type of actual empirical data, then the person making the statement has no leg to stand on.

I'd be very interested to see some actual figures in regards to which how many times each of these quarterbacks actually lets the play clock run down to the very last moment.

What I'm not interested in is some joker saying "well, I don't have any actual numbers, but I watch TONS of football and I can tell you for a fact that those other guys don't let it run down".

:stop: :bang3: :damn:

 

[hairic]

This is just a bias/meme. Announcers mention crap once or twice, suddenly it happens every play. Almost everyone in this thread's perception is simply wrong/biased.

@NYG: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4713852&postcount=30

TB: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752840&postcount=16

BAL: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4790443&postcount=41

I will not do any others. Though I might go back to the NYG game and refute the claim that defenses can jump the snap based on the play clock, since I already have the pics/times from that thread (http://imgur.com/a/9pH2O & http://imgur.com/a/Uuwwr ) and it'd only take 20-30 minutes to get reaction times from the 22 view. Since that's also gone memetic, again because of announcers, it's probably a waste of my time; it'll just show up the next time a thread for this appears.

You want to know how long it takes Ware to move the half yard into the neutral zone the first play I looked at (0:20, 2nd Q, 37 yard line, 2nd and 10, week 13)? 0.13 seconds. That leaves a lot of room to be wrong in 1 second, not even mentioning the lag for the official to see/react to it...

 

[5Stars]

This is just a bias/meme. Announcers mention crap once or twice, suddenly it happens every play. Almost everyone in this thread's perception is simply wrong/biased.

@NYG: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4713852&postcount=30

TB: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752840&postcount=16

BAL: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4790443&postcount=41

I will not do any others. Though I might go back to the NYG game and refute the claim that defenses can jump the snap based on the play clock, since I already have the pics/times from that thread (http://imgur.com/a/9pH2O & http://imgur.com/a/Uuwwr ) and it'd only take 20-30 minutes to get reaction times from the 22 view. Since that's also gone memetic, again because of announcers, it's probably a waste of my time; it'll just show up the next time a thread for this appears.

You want to know how long it takes Ware to move the half yard into the neutral zone the first play I looked at (0:20, 2nd Q, 37 yard line, 2nd and 10, week 13)? 0.13 seconds. That leaves a lot of room to be wrong in 1 second, not even mentioning the lag for the official to see/react to it...

All I hear now are crickets...

Good job!


:laugh2:

 

[TheCount]

Guarantee they incorporate more hurry-up offense this year when they are not in catch-up mode. fwiw

I don't think they will. Waiting till the last moment is part of the offensive philosophy.

 

[CyberB0b]

This is just a bias/meme. Announcers mention crap once or twice, suddenly it happens every play. Almost everyone in this thread's perception is simply wrong/biased.

@NYG: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4713852&postcount=30

TB: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752840&postcount=16

BAL: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4790443&postcount=41

I will not do any others. Though I might go back to the NYG game and refute the claim that defenses can jump the snap based on the play clock, since I already have the pics/times from that thread (http://imgur.com/a/9pH2O & http://imgur.com/a/Uuwwr ) and it'd only take 20-30 minutes to get reaction times from the 22 view. Since that's also gone memetic, again because of announcers, it's probably a waste of my time; it'll just show up the next time a thread for this appears.

You want to know how long it takes Ware to move the half yard into the neutral zone the first play I looked at (0:20, 2nd Q, 37 yard line, 2nd and 10, week 13)? 0.13 seconds. That leaves a lot of room to be wrong in 1 second, not even mentioning the lag for the official to see/react to it...

Facts? We don't want no stinkin' facts around here.

Good work.

 

[Idgit]

This is just a bias/meme. Announcers mention crap once or twice, suddenly it happens every play. Almost everyone in this thread's perception is simply wrong/biased.

@NYG: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4713852&postcount=30

TB: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752840&postcount=16

BAL: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4790443&postcount=41

I will not do any others. Though I might go back to the NYG game and refute the claim that defenses can jump the snap based on the play clock, since I already have the pics/times from that thread (http://imgur.com/a/9pH2O & http://imgur.com/a/Uuwwr ) and it'd only take 20-30 minutes to get reaction times from the 22 view. Since that's also gone memetic, again because of announcers, it's probably a waste of my time; it'll just show up the next time a thread for this appears.

You want to know how long it takes Ware to move the half yard into the neutral zone the first play I looked at (0:20, 2nd Q, 37 yard line, 2nd and 10, week 13)? 0.13 seconds. That leaves a lot of room to be wrong in 1 second, not even mentioning the lag for the official to see/react to it...

This is a great post. It deserves a response from the posters who had opinions that were opposite to what it reveals in the first place. Especially the ones minimizing the importance of having data to support their positions.

 

[Hoofbite]

This is just a bias/meme. Announcers mention crap once or twice, suddenly it happens every play. Almost everyone in this thread's perception is simply wrong/biased.

@NYG: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4713852&postcount=30

TB: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4752840&postcount=16

BAL: http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4790443&postcount=41

I will not do any others. Though I might go back to the NYG game and refute the claim that defenses can jump the snap based on the play clock, since I already have the pics/times from that thread (http://imgur.com/a/9pH2O & http://imgur.com/a/Uuwwr ) and it'd only take 20-30 minutes to get reaction times from the 22 view. Since that's also gone memetic, again because of announcers, it's probably a waste of my time; it'll just show up the next time a thread for this appears.

You want to know how long it takes Ware to move the half yard into the neutral zone the first play I looked at (0:20, 2nd Q, 37 yard line, 2nd and 10, week 13)? 0.13 seconds. That leaves a lot of room to be wrong in 1 second, not even mentioning the lag for the official to see/react to it...

What part is bias?

Perhaps fans exaggerate the extent but I don't think there's anything bias in saying that Dallas snaps the ball late in the play clock often.

I'd also be hesitant to just assume there are certain amounts of time on the clock because Fox typically shows the clock at some certain point. I've been looking at CBS and they show the play clock basically from the time the team hits the line of scrimmage. I think I've missed 1 play clock and I've now watched 1 game from Manning, 1 game from Brees and 1 game from Romo.

I wish I would have saved Manning's game but didn't think I would actually care to. It was the CBS game against Cincy. I tracked every snap except special teams snaps regardless of game situation. Penalties included. I don't think the negation of a play actually matters in measuring this because a false start at 5 seconds doesn't change the fact that the team couldn't have gotten the snap off any earlier than that and it still shows trends in the clock.

The amount of time that was left on the clock for Peyton was a little over 12 seconds, I believe. They had 6 snaps where 5 seconds or less are showing.

For Brees, I watched the KC game (CBS game) and the Saints averaged 10.77 seconds on the clock at the time of the snap. They had 9 plays with 5 seconds or less on the clock. This was the game where I couldn't see the clock at all so I just excluded that snap.

For Romo, I watched the game against Pittsburgh. Dallas had 32 plays where the play clock hit 5 seconds or less either before the snap or a penalty occurred. 1 was a delay of game, 2 more were false starts. Average time on the clock remaining was 6.43 seconds.

It's a single game for each player so it is what it is, just a small sample. That said, I doubt the game-by-game variance is that great. I wonder if Dallas has some significant differences between halves simply because they were forced to run the hurry-up in the 2nd half so much. It would be interesting to see if that would show up but it would be a lot of work for little reward in tracking all those plays.

Also, the team has said that they use the clock for a reason. If you're saying they don't snap the ball late in the count, what are they talking about? I don't think there's any bias or fabrication, I think Dallas typically uses the clock more than other teams. They've given reasons why they do it.

 

[MapleLeaf]

Everyone on the defense is capable of seeing the clock. All they have to do is move their head and look at it. Just because they can see it doesn't mean they are looking at it.

...you stated that the defence is looking at the offence and not the clock.

That is clearly not the singular case in all defences.

I would argue that defences who played against Romo this past year knew they could rely on Tony running the clock down to the last few seconds and primed themselves on full blitz assignments for the DC to focus primarily on a line of sight path at Romo, but watching the center and the clock in order to time their blitz.

If the call from the DC is for me to dial up a blitz assignment, then I am going to use every advantage to do so. Whether I am a corner on the slot, one of the LBs or a safety who is decoying man or dropping down with Romo the clock is my friend.

For a dialed blitz there is no reason to look at the offence. You look at the center for the snap and the clock to prime yourself for a jump. At 6 or 7 seconds you look away from the clock and zero in on the snap.

This is the problem with Romo. No defender has to worry about a snap at the 15 to 10 second mark. He isn't going to call for the ball. So you move and decoy and then pin your ears back at 6 or 7.

The Dallas offence has been too predictable in this regard and they have not been successful in setting tempo and creating randomness outside of Tony going into "no huddle".

This is the rhythm of their regular offence and at times it has sucked.

You ask for data, well I'm sorry, but I would be happy to chart a game just to end the argument once and for all, but I'm not certain if some of the members who have "all 22" can see the playclock at the intervals prior to the snap.

This is clearly my impression, but if you have followed game threads on this board you will find many frustrated fans screaming for the team to snap the stupid ball.

 

[MapleLeaf]

What part is bias?

Perhaps fans exaggerate the extent but I don't think there's anything bias in saying that Dallas snaps the ball late in the play clock often.

...bias and given the team's record I think they need to consider developing a more random rhythym.

It's not bias when the fans and the announcer is calling for the snap.

Frankly the results justify the method. If waiting for the defence to set is the best way for Dallas offence to play an opponent with the talent they had on the offence how did this work out for the team in the end?