Romo or JC, who throws more TD's this year?

[Mansta54]

So which qb - Romo or Campbell - will have the most turnovers?

Romo probably because he goes downfield with the ball and makes plays. JC doesn't go downfield and he darn sure doesn't make plays. Any QB who makes plays for his team to win is gonna throw some INT's, it's part of the game. Gimmie that playmaker any day of the week. That safe QB who throws 5 and 7yrd passes all the time, doesn't make plays and probably doesn't win very much. Romo as a starter is 27-12. What's JC record as a starter?

 

[KINGBRICE_28]

Luckily for us you're merely [strike]guessing[/strike] hoping you're right about the Defense and we already know that this Offense can put up some points.

naaa.....I didn't see any reason this offseason to warrant a dramatic improvement this year for you guys. You finished 20th....that's pretty mediocre to me....

that's true but lucky for us we can score pts and you gotta be stupid if you think we won't just because Owens is gone.

You'll score 4-5 td's less but that is nothing over the course of a season....

You're not alone. Almost everyone lol's when they read ES.

......typical unnecessary cowboys comment

... and the implication you're making is that because the results of the '08 regular season were the opposite of last year's colt preseason game, that the regular season this year will see the opposite of your Ravens game?

Unfortunately for you, that isn't the way it works.

No, that was the implication YOU assumed I was referring to,since I'm not you get handed this "stop reading between the lines" sticker for your participation.

You can try to act like your first team played ok and it was your reserves that lost the game... but I watched it.

Then take off your blue and silver glasses cuz the first team wasn't as bad as you are making it seem.......

Just like I think the Commanders will have a good defense; I think the Cowboys will have a good defense. Am I wrong? Maybe.

You shouldn't use our D in the same sentence as yours.....that is as laughable as the person who made the bet in the OPP.

What's JC record as a starter?

17-20 I think

 

[SaltwaterServr]

naaa.....I didn't see any reason this offseason to warrant a dramatic improvement this year for you guys. You finished 20th....that's pretty mediocre to me....

20th? Where? Can't figure out how to use NFL.com yet?

We were 8th in overall defense, 5th ranked passing defense and 12th ranked rushing defense in 2008.

Then take off your blue and silver glasses cuz the first team wasn't as bad as you are making it seem.......

Nah, they weren't that good no matter which dog you had in the fight. Washington's run blocking has fail stamped all over it in 3" bolded caps. The pass blocking looked okay against a vanilla defense.

But seriously? Didn't even make the 50 yard line? Denver fans are looking at the Washington starting offense and feeling pretty good about themselves right now.

 

[KINGBRICE_28]

20th? Where? Can't figure out how to use NFL.com yet?

We were 8th in overall defense, 5th ranked passing defense and 12th ranked rushing defense in 2008.

20th in the ONLY category that counts captain laugh-too-soon.....

POINTS ALLOWED

Nah, they weren't that good no matter which dog you had in the fight. Washington's run blocking has fail stamped all over it in 3" bolded caps. The pass blocking looked okay against a vanilla defense.

But seriously? Didn't even make the 50 yard line? Denver fans are looking at the Washington starting offense and feeling pretty good about themselves right now.

Still, you insist on believing that 2 drives in the first exhibition game of the season missing your #1 RB, WR, RG & RT somehow can be extrapolated to an entire season. Why would the skins cross the 50 yard line? Who was going to do it? Ladell Betts running behind a patch work line? Or would it be Devin Thomas, the acting #1 with an OBVIOUS hamstring injury?

Your homerism is beyond what I expected. It's one thing to acknowledge/point out a weakness but it's another to do what you have done.

please stop failing, the cowboys offense was a pinch below average last season and that was WITH Owens.......we all know the skins are gonna suffer due to the line but making the cowboys offense out to be better than midgrade is just foolish as well so I wouldn't be too hard on the skins if I were you.

 

[Bonecrusher#31]

So which qb - Romo or Campbell - will have the most turnovers?

Campbell will have the most INTs, if his average per yards per attempt goes up..(If he doesn't throw 7 to 10 screen passes and 7 to 10- 5 yard dumps a game)

JC needs to go for it this year, being a safe scared passer has got him no where but a losing recording as a starter....

 

[Bonecrusher#31]

But if Campbell continues with his current non aggressive passing style he will definitely have less INT's than Romo...

He also will have less INT's than Brees, Palmer, McNabb, Cutler, Rivers, Warner, Rodgers, Ryan, both Mannings and probably Brady........

 

[AdamJT13]

20th in the ONLY category that counts

POINTS ALLOWED

Total points allowed isn't necessarily a reflection on the defense. Returns for touchdowns against the offense and special teams count in points allowed but have NOTHING to do with defensive performance. And turnovers that put the opponent in scoring position can result in points, even if the defense doesn't allow a single yard.

The Cowboys' special teams and offense allowed six touchdowns and a safety last season -- only four teams allowed more points with their defense not on the field. The Cowboys' DEFENSE itself actually allowed fewer touchdowns (30) than the Giants' defense (31), which finished "fifth" in total points allowed.

The Cowboys' offense and special teams also finished next-to-last in turnovers committed, which often put the opponent in scoring position. The Cowboys' defense faced the ninth-most possessions (a factor almost always overlooked by the less-informed) and faced the fourth-worst average starting field position. Despite often being put in bad situations, the Cowboys' defense finished 14th in points allowed per possession. So even though Dallas finished "20th" in total points allowed, every thorough analysis shows that Dallas actually had a top-10 defense last season. That's why, for example, the Cowboys finished in the top 10 in DVOA, weighted DVOA, Drive Success Rating, TDs per drive, yards per game, yards per drive, yards per play, net yards per pass attempt and first downs per game.

In other words, if you put every defense on the field at the opponent's 20-yard line for 150 possessions, the Cowboys' defense would have been one of the 10 best -- not anywhere close to the 20th best.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

20th in the ONLY category that counts captain laugh-too-soon.....

POINTS ALLOWED

Captain Laugh-Too-Soon now thinks the Commanders fan doesn't understand that there's more to points allowed than the points scored against the defense. Nah, that would completely undermine your argument, wouldn't it?

I'd be willing to bet that once you pull out the special teams allowed TD's, and that safety against Philly, Dallas's defense would rank easily in the top 10, if not 7 or higher. Every other statistical category has us ranked in the top 10 so the points allowed ranking is coming from somewhere other than poor defensive play, as you insinuate. Nice try, but you get an F for fail yet again.

please stop failing, the cowboys offense was a pinch below average last season and that was WITH Owens....

Hmmm, with Owens and his 8 games of sub-40 yards receiving?? Sure, he was the problem and not rag-arm Brad Johnson in there racking up less than 2 TD's a game.

Still, you insist on believing that 2 drives in the first exhibition game of the season missing your #1 RB, WR, RG & RT somehow can be extrapolated to an entire season. Why would the skins cross the 50 yard line? Who was going to do it? Ladell Betts running behind a patch work line? Or would it be Devin Thomas, the acting #1 with an OBVIOUS hamstring injury?

Who was going to do it? Obviously no one as the entire team mustered an impressive 1 for 11 on third downs. Not bad though, at least Cleveland made you look not quite as bad by not scoring this week either. Good company to keep.

But let's give your offense and injuries the slight benefit of the doubt. Can we apply the injury reason to Dallas as well?

If so then I'll point out Dallas was down to it's fourth option at left guard, our #1 RB took less than 35 snaps over the last 5 games, our #2 RB was out after 6 games, our #1 TE played injured for the last half of the season, our 2 time Pro Bowl QB with 81 touchdowns in 39 games was out for three games as well.

...we all know the skins are gonna suffer due to the line but making the cowboys offense out to be better than midgrade is just foolish as well so I wouldn't be too hard on the skins if I were you.

Why not? The TD per attempt by your QB is so very impressive. 1 every 32? 35 total in 36 games? Luckily Danny Boy went out and got you a whooooole bunch of new offensive wea....Oops. He didn't did he?

Well Danny sure did help to instill confidence in Jason by not going after any QB's this offsea....Oops he screwed that up to?

At least your team got some new linebac.....Oh, still a weakness of the team I see.

Surely the team will get a decent DE and not try to turn him into a crappy lineba....Dang they're doing that too?

Bottomline, enjoy fighting New Jersey for the bottom of the NFC East.

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Total points allowed isn't necessarily a reflection on the defense. Returns for touchdowns against the offense and special teams count in points allowed but have NOTHING to do with defensive performance. And turnovers that put the opponent in scoring position can result in points, even if the defense doesn't allow a single yard.

The Cowboys' special teams and offense allowed six touchdowns and a safety last season -- only four teams allowed more points with their defense not on the field. The Cowboys' DEFENSE itself actually allowed fewer touchdowns (30) than the Giants' defense (31), which finished "fifth" in total points allowed.

The Cowboys' offense and special teams also finished next-to-last in turnovers committed, which often put the opponent in scoring position. The Cowboys' defense faced the ninth-most possessions (a factor almost always overlooked by the less-informed) and faced the fourth-worst average starting field position. Despite often being put in bad situations, the Cowboys' defense finished 14th in points allowed per possession. So even though Dallas finished "20th" in total points allowed, every thorough analysis shows that Dallas actually had a top-10 defense last season. That's why, for example, the Cowboys finished in the top 10 in DVOA, weighted DVOA, Drive Success Rating, TDs per drive, yards per game, yards per drive, yards per play, net yards per pass attempt and first downs per game.

In other words, if you put every defense on the field at the opponent's 20-yard line for 150 possessions, the Cowboys' defense would have been one of the 10 best -- not anywhere close to the 20th best.

And I thought I did a decent job. Wow. You da man.

 

[KINGBRICE_28]

Total points allowed isn't necessarily a reflection on the defense. Returns for touchdowns against the offense and special teams count in points allowed but have NOTHING to do with defensive performance. And turnovers that put the opponent in scoring position can result in points, even if the defense doesn't allow a single yard.

The Cowboys' special teams and offense allowed six touchdowns and a safety last season -- only four teams allowed more points with their defense not on the field. The Cowboys' DEFENSE itself actually allowed fewer touchdowns (30) than the Giants' defense (31), which finished "fifth" in total points allowed.

The Cowboys' offense and special teams also finished next-to-last in turnovers committed, which often put the opponent in scoring position. The Cowboys' defense faced the ninth-most possessions (a factor almost always overlooked by the less-informed) and faced the fourth-worst average starting field position. Despite often being put in bad situations, the Cowboys' defense finished 14th in points allowed per possession. So even though Dallas finished "20th" in total points allowed, every thorough analysis shows that Dallas actually had a top-10 defense last season. That's why, for example, the Cowboys finished in the top 10 in DVOA, weighted DVOA, Drive Success Rating, TDs per drive, yards per game, yards per drive, yards per play, net yards per pass attempt and first downs per game.

In other words, if you put every defense on the field at the opponent's 20-yard line for 150 possessions, the Cowboys' defense would have been one of the 10 best -- not anywhere close to the 20th best.

Fine.....take the 38 pts off the 365 total allowed.....you still have 327 = 20.43per game......aka 3 td's

HOWEVER there were 114 "returns" for td's and 21 safeties.

This brings us to a total of 726 points the defense had nothing to do with....

Since no one logical would sit down and calculate EACH individual team numbers I'll draw an average to use among all the teams to make my point.

subtracting the 6 returns and the safety from the tally 108 returns, 20 safeties= 690pts divided over 31 teams.

Now reduce the cowboys PPG allowed by 36/16 and you have 20.43ppg

Now reduce every other team in the league by (690/31/16)=1.3911 ( with a MoR of about 4%+/- for the teams with better or worse quarterbacks and you have a upward shift of ~1.4ppg PER team.

*drum roll*

Thus placing the cowboys in approx 16th place. aka middle of the league.....( as I've been saying all along ) Average O and an Average D. It's not too difficult to grasp.....

_______________________

As for YOUR post, It was a valid pt and the low yardage yielded MAY be an indicator of such a gap between YPG and PPG HOWEVER unless someone presents me a graph illustrating a grossly UNFAIR average opponent field position for the 2008 cowboys I find it hard to believe it was anything more than what my current data shows.

 

[KINGBRICE_28]

I'd be willing to bet that once you pull out the special teams allowed TD's, and that safety against Philly, Dallas's defense would rank easily in the top 10, if not 7 or higher.

Still care to make that bet after the last post of mine ? I kid I kid......

Hmmm, with Owens and his 8 games of sub-40 yards receiving?? Sure, he was the problem and not rag-arm Brad Johnson in there racking up less than 2 TD's a game.

I'll give ya that one.....however....you now don't have a proven #1.....by the end of the season I'm sure Williams or someone else will step up though

Who was going to do it? Obviously no one as the entire team mustered an impressive 1 for 11 on third downs.

How many of those NON conversions were against the 1st team? 2, so it's no biggie that our Hawaiian fad QB sucks still :

But let's give your offense and injuries the slight benefit of the doubt. Can we apply the injury reason to Dallas as well?

Yes

Well Danny sure did help to instill confidence in Jason by not going after any QB's this offsea....Oops he screwed that up to?

.

hey now.....I can't defend that ahahhaaa.....play fair...

 

[KINGBRICE_28]

and with that my loves : I will go to sleep.....

it is 4:43am AZ time and I'm sure there will be plenty of FUN and adventurous replies awaiting me in the morning.....

By all means.....find me the "average opponents field position" data for the 08 season. That would certainly finalize this however I think the current data speaks for itself.....

_______________

2008 GRADES:
_______________

Skins O = D
Skins D = B

Boys O = C
Boys D = C

----

We both have 2.0's


G`nite

 

[SaltwaterServr]

Still care to make that bet after the last post of mine ? I kid I kid......



I'll give ya that one.....however....you now don't have a proven #1.....by the end of the season I'm sure Williams or someone else will step up though



How many of those NON conversions were against the 1st team? 2, so it's no biggie that our Hawaiian fad QB sucks still :



Yes

hey now.....I can't defend that ahahhaaa.....play fair...

Ah, I would beg to differ on not having a #1.

2008, leader by receptions: Jason Witten

2007, leader by receptions and yards: Jason Witten

Well, he ain't a WR, and he isn't leading in TD's...But we luv him just the same.

 

[Hostile]

So which qb - Romo or Campbell - will have the most turnovers?

Romo, because he will gamble more and the WCO is designed to limit TOs. You run a WCO and we don't.

Which one will have the most wins?

Which one would you take right now to start for your team assuming both are Unrestricted Free Agents?

Which one do you think most NFL GMs would take under the same conditions?

Which one will lead the Offense to the most points?

Which one will have a better career when all is said and done.



How's that measuring tape look to you right about now? Try not to skulk away in total shame. Man up first.

 

[Mansta54]

Romo, because he will gamble more and the WCO is designed to limit TOs. You run a WCO and we don't.

Which one will have the most wins?

Which one would you take right now to start for your team assuming both are Unrestricted Free Agents?

Which one do you think most NFL GMs would take under the same conditions?

Which one will lead the Offense to the most points?

Which one will have a better career when all is said and done.



How's that measuring tape look to you right about now? Try not to skulk away in total shame. Man up first.

Ouch ouch and OUCH!!!!!

 

[Sammy Baugh]

Romo, because he will gamble more and the WCO is designed to limit TOs. You run a WCO and we don't.

Which one will have the most wins?

Which one would you take right now to start for your team assuming both are Unrestricted Free Agents?

Which one do you think most NFL GMs would take under the same conditions?

Which one will lead the Offense to the most points?

Which one will have a better career when all is said and done.



How's that measuring tape look to you right about now? Try not to skulk away in total shame. Man up first.

The point of my prior post is that touchdowns do not tell everything. Turnovers must be considered, too.

I've seen enough comments from frustrated Cowboys fans to know that I am not alone when I say that Romo helps the Cowboys with some fine throws and also kills the Cowboys with turnovers. Turnovers kill. Such turnovers played a significant part in the 44-6 debacle the last time the Cowboys played, for just one example. And for Romo this is habitual. Romo has developed habits regarding not being careful with the ball and does not seem like he is going to change.

As for the main knock against Campbell - that he doesn't take enough chances - I agree. I wish JC would take more downfield shots. However, he was limited from doing so last year by poor pass blocking as well as the learning curve of being in a new offense. The entire Skins organization, including Campbell, has recognized the problem and has tried to fix it.

So, to the main point of this post: having a qb take more shots downfield (Campbell) is a problem which is much more easily fixed than having a qb who habitually does not protect the football (Romo).

 

[slick325]

Total points allowed isn't necessarily a reflection on the defense. Returns for touchdowns against the offense and special teams count in points allowed but have NOTHING to do with defensive performance. And turnovers that put the opponent in scoring position can result in points, even if the defense doesn't allow a single yard.

The Cowboys' special teams and offense allowed six touchdowns and a safety last season -- only four teams allowed more points with their defense not on the field. The Cowboys' DEFENSE itself actually allowed fewer touchdowns (30) than the Giants' defense (31), which finished "fifth" in total points allowed.

The Cowboys' offense and special teams also finished next-to-last in turnovers committed, which often put the opponent in scoring position. The Cowboys' defense faced the ninth-most possessions (a factor almost always overlooked by the less-informed) and faced the fourth-worst average starting field position. Despite often being put in bad situations, the Cowboys' defense finished 14th in points allowed per possession. So even though Dallas finished "20th" in total points allowed, every thorough analysis shows that Dallas actually had a top-10 defense last season. That's why, for example, the Cowboys finished in the top 10 in DVOA, weighted DVOA, Drive Success Rating, TDs per drive, yards per game, yards per drive, yards per play, net yards per pass attempt and first downs per game.

In other words, if you put every defense on the field at the opponent's 20-yard line for 150 possessions, the Cowboys' defense would have been one of the 10 best -- not anywhere close to the 20th best.

Great stuff Adam!

 

[AsthmaField]

The point of my prior post is that touchdowns do not tell everything. Turnovers must be considered, too.

And the point of Hos' post is that more than just TD's and turnovers need to be considered. TD's, INT's, yards per game, third down conversions, wins, etc. all need to be involved when looking at a QB.

Third down conversions are particularly important, as are TD's and INT's. If you look at all those catagories, you would see Romo leading campbell in every one except turnovers. By nature, if you have one QB who throws way more TD's, yards, yards per pass, and completes way more third down conversions... you will also see that QB have more INT's than the other. It makes perfect sense.

Once you watch the two QB's play, it becomes even more obvious which one you would want leading your team.

I've seen enough comments from frustrated Cowboys fans to know that I am not alone when I say that Romo helps the Cowboys with some fine throws and also kills the Cowboys with turnovers. Turnovers kill. Such turnovers played a significant part in the 44-6 debacle the last time the Cowboys played, for just one example. And for Romo this is habitual. Romo has developed habits regarding not being careful with the ball and does not seem like he is going to change.

You know as well as I do that a ton of the chicken little fans on any team's message board are going to have posts of doom and gloom that are as slanted as any homer's ever could be. If you take their opinions as the gospel then you are just as hopeless as they are.

I could go on any Commanders forum right now and find hundreds of fans that think Campbell is the worst QB in all of organized football. They all say how terrible he is and they can back that up with statistics. That doesn't make them correct... and I certainly wouldn't use their opinion to make my argument with a sensible Commanders fan that Campbell is a terrible QB.

The truth lies somewhere in between extremes with all players on all message boards.

As for the main knock against Campbell - that he doesn't take enough chances - I agree. I wish JC would take more downfield shots. However, he was limited from doing so last year by poor pass blocking as well as the learning curve of being in a new offense. The entire Skins organization, including Campbell, has recognized the problem and has tried to fix it.

And I would like for Romo to throw fewer INT's.

Campbell is limited by more than than just the blocking and a new offense. Anyone can see that his decision making is extremely slow... as is his release. Those things follow Jason from scheme to scheme, and hamper him no matter what coach come in.

And the skins organization has indeed recognized the problem... which is why you saw them go so hard after Cutler and Sanchez.

So, to the main point of this post: having a qb take more shots downfield (Campbell) is a problem which is much more easily fixed than having a qb who habitually does not protect the football (Romo).

The Problem with Campbell going downfield is his decision making skills are sllllooooowwwww and his release is sllllooooowwwww. The guy simply can't read a defense very well. That is ANYTHING but easily fixed. It has been Jason's big problem no matter where he's been or who has been the coach.

Simple reads, simple throws. Those are the only plays that Campbell can run with any success. That's why the team did well early on last year.

Zorn had some simple plays that Jason ran well and once teams figured out to defend those and stop the run, the wheels fell off. If defenses stopped the few things that Zorn knew Campbell could do well and stopped Portis, then Zorn had to ask his QB to do more and Jason just couldn't do it.

That's why you saw the team try so desperately to find another QB. That is also why you saw teams across the NFL say thanks but no thanks to the Skins when they tried to trade Campbell before the draft.

As a matter of fact, this whole Romo vs. Campbell thread could be summed up like this: Romo's team did everything they could to make him happy this offseason while Campbell's team did everything they could to get rid of him this offseason.

 

[Mansta54]

Romo to JC isn't even a argument. One is a Pro Bowler and the other is a BUM who's own team doesn't want him. Sammy Balls is blowing smoke as he usually does. He would take Romo over JC in a NY minute.

 

[Sammy Baugh]

And the point of Hos' post is that more than just TD's and turnovers need to be considered. TD's, INT's, yards per game, third down conversions, wins, etc. all need to be involved when looking at a QB.

Third down conversions are particularly important, as are TD's and INT's. If you look at all those catagories, you would see Romo leading campbell in every one except turnovers. By nature, if you have one QB who throws way more TD's, yards, yards per pass, and completes way more third down conversions... you will also see that QB have more INT's than the other. It makes perfect sense.

Once you watch the two QB's play, it becomes even more obvious which one you would want leading your team.



You know as well as I do that a ton of the chicken little fans on any team's message board are going to have posts of doom and gloom that are as slanted as any homer's ever could be. If you take their opinions as the gospel then you are just as hopeless as they are.

I could go on any Commanders forum right now and find hundreds of fans that think Campbell is the worst QB in all of organized football. They all say how terrible he is and they can back that up with statistics. That doesn't make them correct... and I certainly wouldn't use their opinion to make my argument with a sensible Commanders fan that Campbell is a terrible QB.

The truth lies somewhere in between extremes with all players on all message boards.



And I would like for Romo to throw fewer INT's.

Campbell is limited by more than than just the blocking and a new offense. Anyone can see that his decision making is extremely slow... as is his release. Those things follow Jason from scheme to scheme, and hamper him no matter what coach come in.

And the skins organization has indeed recognized the problem... which is why you saw them go so hard after Cutler and Sanchez.



The Problem with Campbell going downfield is his decision making skills are sllllooooowwwww and his release is sllllooooowwwww. The guy simply can't read a defense very well. That is ANYTHING but easily fixed. It has been Jason's big problem no matter where he's been or who has been the coach.

Simple reads, simple throws. Those are the only plays that Campbell can run with any success. That's why the team did well early on last year.

Zorn had some simple plays that Jason ran well and once teams figured out to defend those and stop the run, the wheels fell off. If defenses stopped the few things that Zorn knew Campbell could do well and stopped Portis, then Zorn had to ask his QB to do more and Jason just couldn't do it.

That's why you saw the team try so desperately to find another QB. That is also why you saw teams across the NFL say thanks but no thanks to the Skins when they tried to trade Campbell before the draft.

As a matter of fact, this whole Romo vs. Campbell thread could be summed up like this: Romo's team did everything they could to make him happy this offseason while Campbell's team did everything they could to get rid of him this offseason.

Actually the football professionals in the organization support Campbell. The reason we reached out for another qb is because we have an idiot micromanaging owner.