Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

[kskboys]

The Ukraine armies were already in place, having been fighting the separatists for years.

I'm really not seeing how this is a good move by Putin. We're not talking about the ragtag Iraqi army here.

 

[JoeKing]

It is arrogant and presumptuous to think that just because help is not given they would just give up. I can assure you, the Ukranian people will not do that.

You are confusing them with other countries where that happens, but Ukranian people are strong willed and minded and they will not just give up no matter who helps them or not.

To them, dying to keep their country is worth it and that should be commended and their people respected regardless of what happens.

Exactly right. I wish more ppl understood this. Thank you for saying it.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

I find it fascinating the people don't realize that Russia and Ukraine have been fighting for years.

Yes, which I think was started with the invasion of Crimea.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

I totally agree that Ukraine does not deserve this, but if we could put ourselves in Putins shoes then I think the reaction would ultimately be the same. There are many factors in play here, no one involved is wearing a halo. Keep encroaching on a rats territory and eventually that rat will strike back. I know, I’m repeating myself.

I don't think his invasion of Crimea was warranted either, and I think that's where this conflict started.

 

[rags747]

If you read any WW2 history about the Eastern Front it is well established how courageous Russian soldiers were, even against impossible odds. At that time in history, that included Ukrainian soldiers. Putin is not invading a country that will give him a cake walk. He has sent his army against essentially Russian defenders. And the Ukrainian soldiers have already distinguished themselves in bravery, as evidenced at Snake Island and the soldier who sacrificed his life to blow a bridge just to slow Russian tanks. These are a brave and proud people. Even their ex-comedian President has rejected offers to get him out of the country to safety.

Agreed, without Russia WWII would have been extended for sure. Should have listened to Patton!

 

[kskboys]

Yes, which I think was started with the invasion of Crimea.

Even longer.

Funny thing is, Ukraine was one of the founding republics of the USSR. Strange stuff. In the 1930's, Russia sort of took over which led to great famine.

When the USSR dissolved in 1991, Ukraine became independent again.

And yes, the fighting started again in 2014 when Russia entered Crimea. Been going on since then. So, in reality, this is an escalation.

 

[kskboys]

I don't think his invasion of Crimea was warranted either, and I think that's where this conflict started.

Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join the Russian Federation. Knowing how Russians work, prolly cooked the books.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

Here's the reason in my view this is a difficult situation. On one hand, it's true that Ukraine is not in NATO. That said, we do have to look at history. With a lot of tyrants like Putin, Stalin, and Hitler, the invasions into countries like Ukraine or Czechoslovakia were not where the invasions stopped. Yes, there were things we could've done differently. For example, after WW1, it probably was a bad idea to punish Germany as hard as the Allies.did. That set financial issues on Germany that the collapse of the Stock Market in 1929 exacerbated. This was one of the biggest reasons that Hitler was able to rise to power. It wasn't until he invaded Poland that really started WW2.

Similarly, the ineptitude of Czar Nicolas was a big reason that the Bolsheviks under Lenin and Stalin were able to rise to power. We saw what that led to with the massive growth of the USSR.

Similarly, sure, the west could've been less harsh on Russia to an extent. Perhaps allowing more discussion with Russia could have helped. That said, now that Putin has started on Ukraine, that does not mean he's going to stop there. Look how he's already threatening Finland and Sweden now. In my mind, if he's able to take Ukraine, he's not going to stop there. Why would he? He wants the USSR back. If we compare the Putin invasion with Hitler's invasions, what's to say he won't go after Estonia or Lithuania? They're NATO countries, but, if we don't show more strength to Putin, which is what he understands, and follow the lead of Ukraine, then we might see him continue his conquest until he hits one of our NATO allies until we are forced to defend such allies. Additionally, China wants Taiwan. If we continue to show weakness, we may inadvertently greenlight China to attack Taiwan, who the US I think is obligated by treaty to defend. So, this could get very bad.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

Even longer.

Funny thing is, Ukraine was one of the founding republics of the USSR. Strange stuff. In the 1930's, Russia sort of took over which led to great famine.

When the USSR dissolved in 1991, Ukraine became independent again.

And yes, the fighting started again in 2014 when Russia entered Crimea. Been going on since then. So, in reality, this is an escalation.

Oh for sure, but my concern is where this goes. I don't think for a minute that Putin is stopping with Ukraine. Additionally, China may attack Taiwan as well, and there is a treaty that obligates the US to defend Taiwan. So, this is all the more reason to hope and pray that Ukraine wins this war.

 

[Sarek]

Lots of different things can unfold here. Don't jump the gun and talk years down the road just yet. Putin could be arrested in Moscow by his own people who find him guilty of war crimes and treason, ultimately having Putin put to death in his own backyard.

Looks like SWIFT will be passed soon. If passed lets see what kind of effect this has on Russia and it's people's mindset of Putin.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

Lots of different things can unfold here. Don't jump the gun and talk years down the road just yet. Putin could be arrested in Moscow by his own people who find him guilty of war crimes and treason, ultimately having Putin put to death in his own backyard.

Looks like SWIFT will be passed soon. If passed lets see what kind of effect this has on Russia and it's people's mindset of Putin.

Those would be massive. I pray that happens with Russia getting removed from SWIFT and Putin getting removed from office like that.

 

[Sarek]

It would be very bad if Putin were to be assassinated. That could/would create a nastier outcome for the West. Putin must be arrested by Russians, put on trial in Russia, judged by Russians, and executed in Russia by Russians.

 

[Bigdog]

Here's the reason in my view this is a difficult situation. On one hand, it's true that Ukraine is not in NATO. That said, we do have to look at history. With a lot of tyrants like Putin, Stalin, and Hitler, the invasions into countries like Ukraine or Czechoslovakia were not where the invasions stopped. Yes, there were things we could've done differently. For example, after WW1, it probably was a bad idea to punish Germany as hard as the Allies.did. That set financial issues on Germany that the collapse of the Stock Market in 1929 exacerbated. This was one of the biggest reasons that Hitler was able to rise to power. It wasn't until he invaded Poland that really started WW2.

Similarly, the ineptitude of Czar Nicolas was a big reason that the Bolsheviks under Lenin and Stalin were able to rise to power. We saw what that led to with the massive growth of the USSR.

Similarly, sure, the west could've been less harsh on Russia to an extent. Perhaps allowing more discussion with Russia could have helped. That said, now that Putin has started on Ukraine, that does not mean he's going to stop there. Look how he's already threatening Finland and Sweden now. In my mind, if he's able to take Ukraine, he's not going to stop there. Why would he? He wants the USSR back. If we compare the Putin invasion with Hitler's invasions, what's to say he won't go after Estonia or Lithuania? They're NATO countries, but, if we don't show more strength to Putin, which is what he understands, and follow the lead of Ukraine, then we might see him continue his conquest until he hits one of our NATO allies until we are forced to defend such allies. Additionally, China wants Taiwan. If we continue to show weakness, we may inadvertently greenlight China to attack Taiwan, who the US I think is obligated by treaty to defend. So, this could get very bad.

Puntin does not want Finland or Sweden to join NATO just like he doesn’t want Ukraine to join. They are close to Russia and NATOs missiles can strike his country. Finland and Russia have a 383 mile border. It already lost the Baltic countries to NATO and Putin is concern that all of Europe will be under NATO and the countries have to defend each other by the law of the treaty. Putin would be absolutely an insane to attack a NATO country knowing that the sleeping bear can awake. You don’t want to poke the bear. Putin can not defeat NATO by himself and he knows it. This still doesn’t give him the right to invade a peaceful nation who should have the right to decide if they want to join or not.

 

[kskboys]

Oh for sure, but my concern is where this goes. I don't think for a minute that Putin is stopping with Ukraine. Additionally, China may attack Taiwan as well, and there is a treaty that obligates the US to defend Taiwan. So, this is all the more reason to hope and pray that Ukraine wins this war.

Not sure it's winnable. Maybe through attrition.

 

[kskboys]

Puntin does not want Finland or Sweden to join NATO just like he doesn’t want Ukraine to join. They are close to Russia and NATOs missiles can strike his country. Finland and Russia have a 383 mile border. It already lost the Baltic countries to NATO and Putin is concern that all of Europe will be under NATO and the countries have to defend each other by the law of the treaty. Putin would be absolutely an insane to attack a NATO country knowing that the sleeping bear can awake. You don’t want to poke the bear. Putin can not defeat NATO by himself and he knows it. This still doesn’t give him the right to invade a peaceful nation who should have the right to decide if they want to join or not.

Not really all that peaceful, and not sure it's about having the right. If China stole Texas from the US, would we have the right to win it back militarily?

 

[kskboys]

BTW, I just want to mention that I absolutely love all the input from you guys. Great stuff.

 

[kskboys]

There is a significant difference today compared to the 1930s. 1. nukes 2. nations like China and Russia can reach the US mainland with missiles and bombers. I think MAD still applies, although when it comes to totalitarian governments under the thumb of one man, madness trumps MAD.

However, I see the parallels to the 1930s. We have a lot more Neville Chamberlains today, because of 1. Also, the US is sick of wars after finally withdrawing from Afghanistan. Kind of like Europe after WW 1.

Yup. The pacifism of Chamberlin was one of the biggest causes of WWII. Backing down causes wars.

 

[Bigdog]

Not really all that peaceful, and not sure it's about having the right. If China stole Texas from the US, would we have the right to win it back militarily?

I am not saying Putin has the right to do what he is doing. No country has the right to dictate if it can join a treaty. What he is doing is wrong. Plain and simple. I think he is scared that will be the only left. There is only one super power left in the world today and he knows that the NATO countries are backed by it.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Russia blocks Twitter as Ukraine invasion escalates
As the invasion of Ukraine enters its third day, Russia has blocked access to Twitter in an apparent effort to stifle the flow of information
Russian state media has presented a heavily sanitized version of the conflict, focused largely on the plight of refugees from the Eastern Donbas province.

Social media platforms have painted a more chaotic picture, with disturbing images and videos from the conflict circulating widely. One widely circulated video shows a Russian missile striking a residential apartment tower in Kyiv, an apparent violation of international law. Other images appear to show the use of cluster munitions, although the evidence is still unverified.

 

[Roadtrip635]

Ukraine reaching out to Elon Musk.....