Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

[MichaelWinicki]

And that ‘connection’ includes technology and media as well. A guy like Putin can’t ‘hide’ his activities and motivations as easily as Hitler could back then.

No, absolutely not.

One big difference IMO is or are the people.

**** Germany was a far different place during the 1930's than 2022 Russia.

The German people went through the mill post WWI and they were collectively in far worse shape financially than what the typical Russian is.

In other words it was easy for Hitler to whip the German people into a frenzy.

I just don't see Russian people wanting to suffer for some territory in Ukraine.

I just don't see it.

 

[Reality]

People don't change.

But circumstances do.

The world is far more connected than it was in WW2. Economies are far more intertwined.

I think that's the X factor that maybe even Putin does not fully appreciate, though I am sure he understands it.

My guess is he is counting on the business dependencies he has created with Europe in recent years such as supplying a lot of the natural gas that many European countries use to give him leverage in his mind against Europe doing much about it other than pounding podiums.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I think that's the X factor that maybe even Putin does not fully appreciate, though I am sure he understands it.

My guess is he is counting on the business dependencies he has created with Europe in recent years such as supplying a lot of the natural gas that many European countries use to give him leverage in his mind against Europe doing much about it other than pounding podiums.

I don't think he (Putin) does either.

And the real heat against Putin could come from within Russia itself.

 

[Stash]

No, absolutely not.

One big difference IMO is or are the people.

**** Germany was a far different place during the 1930's than 2022 Russia.

The German people went through the mill post WWI and they were collectively in far worse shape financially than what the typical Russian is.

In other words it was easy for Hitler to whip the German people into a frenzy.

I just don't see Russian people wanting to suffer for some territory in Ukraine.

I just don't see it.

I hope you’re right but I’m not sure that a wanna-be dictator like Putin will care what the suffering masses will think. He will be just fine during this period of time and unless someone tries to assassinate him, I think he’s staying in power.

 

[JoeKing]

He is clearly not showing sympathy for Putin. A blind man can see that.

Just because someone talks about history of why someone might think a certain way should not be turned into showing sympathy or giving excuses for that person.

Way too simplistic and lazy in using that argument against someone who is clearly not sympathetic.

Then let him state clearly that and not continue to invoke history to justify current events.

 

[Reality]

I don't think he (Putin) does either.

And the real heat against Putin could come from within Russia itself.

I searched for comments from the Russian people earlier and there were many who said they did not want war with Ukraine but some of those interviews were mixed in with Ukrainian immigrants in Russia so it is hard to know for sure how the majority of Russian people feel.

The types of sanctions imposed so far will ultimately hurt the people over time more than Putin and there are a lot of Russian people who do not care for him, but as to how many might stand up and say something remains to be seen.

For example, I fail to understand how sanctions against oligarchs, who do not control Putin or the miliary and likely maintain their positions and wealth because he allows it, are going to have any real impact on Putin or the Russian military.

The international community is going to have to get serious with sanctions on a banking and financial level to impact Putin and my guess is that he is counting on being done with the power grab (putting pro-Russian leaders in place) before that happens so he can say they are pulling out.

 

[JoeKing]

No, absolutely not.

One big difference IMO is or are the people.

**** Germany was a far different place during the 1930's than 2022 Russia.

The German people went through the mill post WWI and they were collectively in far worse shape financially than what the typical Russian is.

In other words it was easy for Hitler to whip the German people into a frenzy.

I just don't see Russian people wanting to suffer for some territory in Ukraine.

I just don't see it.

Let's hope you are correct. I tend to agree with you but, we'll see.

 

[JoeKing]

I want to thank @Reality and staff for allowing this discussion. It's an important topic and deserves to be discussed. Also, thank you to all posters for leaving American politics out of the discussion.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Then let him state clearly that and not continue to invoke history to justify current events.

He did. You were in argument mode and missed it.
That is my last word on the topic.

 

[rags747]

Seems to me that NATO should have listened to Mr Putin’s concerns a little more diligently. Someone told NATO way way back in the 2018 timeframe that it was absolutely insane for Germany to plan on getting its gas from Russia. Karnak was always smart.

 

[Creeper]

Disagree. It's no more complicated than these simple facts. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has been invaded by Russia. Past events do not justify the current aggressions by Russia.

It is okay to disagree, although I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. The fact is many Ukrainians consider themselves Russians, and basically invited the Russians to take over part of Ukraine. Other parts of Ukraine are clearly not in support of a Russian takeover. The point is not that the war is justified, it was only that there were reasons the Russians went into Ukraine, and part of it is they knew they would be welcomed by some of the population. History does matter and to ignore it would be foolish. I have no doubt Putin is taking advantage of the circumstances for strategic reasons, but ultimately it is the people of Ukraine that need to be considered.

 

[Joe Realist]

Its a horrible situation for Ukraine and like the President said, think Putin has bigger things in mind.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I hope you’re right but I’m not sure that a wanna-be dictator like Putin will care what the suffering masses will think. He will be just fine during this period of time and unless someone tries to assassinate him, I think he’s staying in power.

There are people that Putin does answer too.

And no, I do not expect assassination, but I do think he will back off at some point.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Seems to me that NATO should have listened to Mr Putin’s concerns a little more diligently. Someone told NATO way way back in the 2018 timeframe that it was absolutely insane for Germany to plan on getting its gas from Russia. Karnak was always smart.

NATO has ebbed and flowed as far as unity and the willingness to go far enough.

I think this has caught their attention.

And no, NATO will not enter Ukraine but Putin (if he keeps Ukraine) will end up with NATO on most of its western borders.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I searched for comments from the Russian people earlier and there were many who said they did not want war with Ukraine but some of those interviews were mixed in with Ukrainian immigrants in Russia so it is hard to know for sure how the majority of Russian people feel.

The types of sanctions imposed so far will ultimately hurt the people over time more than Putin and there are a lot of Russian people who do not care for him, but as to how many might stand up and say something remains to be seen.

For example, I fail to understand how sanctions against oligarchs, who do not control Putin or the miliary and likely maintain their positions and wealth because he allows it, are going to have any real impact on Putin or the Russian military.

The international community is going to have to get serious with sanctions on a banking and financial level to impact Putin and my guess is that he is counting on being done with the power grab (putting pro-Russian leaders in place) before that happens so he can say they are pulling out.

We're a society of connections.

There are going to be sanctions vs the state (Russia) and individuals that may not directly affect Putin probably will indirectly and who knows what specific sanctions may reach or may not.

 

[JoeKing]

It is okay to disagree, although I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. The fact is many Ukrainians consider themselves Russians, and basically invited the Russians to take over part of Ukraine. Other parts of Ukraine are clearly not in support of a Russian takeover. The point is not that the war is justified, it was only that there were reasons the Russians went into Ukraine, and part of it is they knew they would be welcomed by some of the population. History does matter and to ignore it would be foolish. I have no doubt Putin is taking advantage of the circumstances for strategic reasons, but ultimately it is the people of Ukraine that need to be considered.

Ukrainian separatists' wishes to reunite with Russia should no more be paid attention to than separatists' wishes in the US that want to secede from the proper United States. Those that wish to redraw borders and thus disrespect sovereign nations should be discouraged to act on their wishes, no matter the cost. Instead, in Ukraine, separatists' rhetoric is allowed, giving Russia the false impression that invasion of Ukraine would be accepted by the West.

 

[dsturgeon]

There are people that Putin does answer too.

And no, I do not expect assassination, but I do think he will back off at some point.

He answers to the world bank and bloodline families. Russia is in debt to the world banks, China is, we are, and pretty much every country. The ones that are not get taken out with the ones who try to start their own currencies. Look up countries and world banks, and ones who tried to start their own currency, and ask jfk.

They fund both sides of the war, and determine the outcome. That is true history. Countries can not pay troops, have arms, gas,etc and maintain without loans. Getting or not getting money determines the outcome or having your debts called in.

It is all a show. Putin does what he is told, just like our president, the king and queen of England, and all the rest.

I may be wrong but I always look at what we are seeing as a distraction, and try to figure out what is really going on. World economic forum statements over the past 5 or so years, protests all over the world, UN agendas. Listen to Klaus schwab statements with the WEF. Putin, Justin treudaou, Merkel and other leaders are all out of that tree.

Killing, starving, experimenting on humans as test subjects only sounds bad to good people

 

[CouchCoach]

With Putin, they have to consider the endgame. Where and how does he profit from this because you can bet he will. Economic sanctions have proven to be impotent against any country, especially ones that knew it was coming.

Hell, we don't even know where our own billionaires keep ALL of their money. As we've seen, the most creative and criminal element in the world are the bankers.

Russia can hack their way out of any economic sanctions and were fully prepared for this. The real war they are fighting is not on land.

 

[rags747]

NATO has ebbed and flowed as far as unity and the willingness to go far enough.

I think this has caught their attention.

And no, NATO will not enter Ukraine but Putin (if he keeps Ukraine) will end up with NATO on most of its western borders.

This is funny. If it took this incident to catch the EU’s attention then they are more backward than we give them credit for. They were warned way back in 2018, but it was all poo poo’d as nonsense. As far as I’m concerned let the Europeans figure it out. They chose this route now they can deal with it.

 

[JJHLH1]

A lot depends on the will of the Ukrainians to fight. It’s a huge country and the citizens are armed.

They could make the war very costly in terms of lives and money for Putin.

Putin could have a difficult time maintaining his supply lines if the Ukrainian’s resistance is strong.