Russia invades Ukraine *** READ RULES IN POST 6 BEFORE POSTING ***

[MichaelWinicki]

I don’t know anymore. Sitting back and letting Putin massacre and murder innocent woman and children ? It’s Hitler and Stalin all over again. Is this how the world has progressed in the 60ish years since those
monsters ? NATO and the EU have given Putin a red line in regards to using chemical and biological weapons. They should add targeting and murdering civilians to the red line: you massacre civilians and there will be a no fly zone within 48 hours.
Also tiring too of the fear of Putin saber rattling his nukes. Based on his army’s recent performance, he’d be lucky to get a nuke fired successfully - or have it not turn around and land in Moscow. Call the bully’s bluff: I highly doubt that his rich buddies and generals want their families to die to follow this Stalin wannabe. Plus, he and they know the WEST outclasses them militarily - including nukes - and that they would be on the receiving end of an infinitely more devastating response. This appeasement stuff leading to murdering innocents is hard to watch.

I think one civilian death is a crime, but this war is nothing like what happened in WWII when it came to civilian casualties.

One tactical nuke would result in many times more civilian deaths than what we've seen so far.

And that's just one.

It would not end there. Because as soon as one side launched one (or more) the other side would launch theirs.

No... I just can not get behind NATO getting involved.

 

[MaineBoy]

I think one civilian death is a crime, but this war is nothing like what happened in WWII when it came to civilian casualties.

One tactical nuke would result in many times more civilian deaths than what we've seen so far.

And that's just one.

It would not end there. Because as soon as one side launched one (or more) the other side would launch theirs.

No... I just can not get behind NATO getting involved.

I hear yah. I just can’t get behind the world watching innocents getting slaughtered and doing nothing about it in 2022. And I don’t think the punk bully would launch anything knowing the response, and likelihood his own people would kill him first.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I hear yah. I just can’t get behind the world watching innocents getting slaughtered and doing nothing about it in 2022. And I don’t think the punk bully would launch anything knowing the response, and likelihood his own people would kill him first.

Hey I respect your opinion on this.

 

[MaineBoy]

Hey I respect your opinion on this.

As I do yours, my friend.

 

[nobody]

I hear yah. I just can’t get behind the world watching innocents getting slaughtered and doing nothing about it in 2022. And I don’t think the punk bully would launch anything knowing the response, and likelihood his own people would kill him first.

I think standing by and doing nothing is not an option. But sending troops in is an escalation I am extremely hesitant to do simply because say we send troops in... Putin might launch tactical nukes at them in Ukraine. What would we do about that? Would we retaliate and ensure a full exchange? Would we watch as our troops were annihilated and do nothing? Also keep in mind that several countries tentatively support what we are doing now. If we send troops, they'll swing away from support because we are escalating.

Have you noticed all of the saber rattling from countries around the world in the past week? North Korea and South Korea are exchanging threats. Pakistan is blaming us for trying to destabilize their government, and so on. Belarus approved of Russia bringing in tactical nukes to their country for possible use against Ukraine or other enemies. China (and India) might switch to supporting Russia if we escalate. Then you really would have World War 3 and the real possibility of a limited or full nuclear exchange. I think the U.S. and it's allies are walking a tight rope. Should Russia be allowed to continue it's butchery? No. But it's not as easy as "Let's go in and kick their butts"

You have to add in the effects that COVID has had on the production chain and the amount of grains produced in Russia and Ukraine that the world depends on. One of the main recipients of those grains is Africa. China saw this coming and stockpiled tons of grains recently. With just the sanctions and war in Ukraine, there's already going to be massive amounts of worldwide suffering due to this. If we escalate it's going to get a lot worse.

 

[RJ_MacReady]

^^^ Helluva post right there.

 

[PA Cowboy Fan]

I don't think we should send troops but we should do all we can to arm them so they can defeat the Russians. We should not even hesitate with this.

 

[MaineBoy]

I think standing by and doing nothing is not an option. But sending troops in is an escalation I am extremely hesitant to do simply because say we send troops in... Putin might launch tactical nukes at them in Ukraine. What would we do about that? Would we retaliate and ensure a full exchange? Would we watch as our troops were annihilated and do nothing? Also keep in mind that several countries tentatively support what we are doing now. If we send troops, they'll swing away from support because we are escalating.

Have you noticed all of the saber rattling from countries around the world in the past week? North Korea and South Korea are exchanging threats. Pakistan is blaming us for trying to destabilize their government, and so on. Belarus approved of Russia bringing in tactical nukes to their country for possible use against Ukraine or other enemies. China (and India) might switch to supporting Russia if we escalate. Then you really would have World War 3 and the real possibility of a limited or full nuclear exchange. I think the U.S. and it's allies are walking a tight rope. Should Russia be allowed to continue it's butchery? No. But it's not as easy as "Let's go in and kick their butts"

You have to add in the effects that COVID has had on the production chain and the amount of grains produced in Russia and Ukraine that the world depends on. One of the main recipients of those grains is Africa. China saw this coming and stockpiled tons of grains recently. With just the sanctions and war in Ukraine, there's already going to be massive amounts of worldwide suffering due to this. If we escalate it's going to get a lot worse.

I didn’t advocate sending troops in, but instead enforce a no fly zone. Ukraine has proven they have the infantry to do the job by themselves on the ground. And keep sending them lots of weapons.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Great presentation (only about 9 minutes) by someone in the German military concerning the current military situation in Ukraine.

It's in German, but has English subtitles:

 

[JJHLH1]

Got it. Thanks.

So let me ask you a few questions, since you seem to be following all of this through social media:
1. What, exactly, is it that the West should be providing to Ukraine that'll help 'em over the hump? NATO jets engaging Russian aircraft via no-fly-zone? Boots on ground?
2. Are you in any way concerned about the conflict escalation and further response that Russia will take?

I think NATO should provide arms, including older fighter jets that Ukraine pilots are familiar with, as well as state of the art air defense weapons. Keeping the Russians from gaining air-superiority is critical.

Drones are also hugely important. They can be devastatingly effective against armored units as well as providing targeting for artillery batteries. They are also a psychological weapon and the Russians know they aren’t safe anywhere because of drones.

I wouldn’t advocate for a no-fly zone or boots on the ground. That would risk Americans fighting Russians directly. Supplying Ukraine with the weapons the need and training them on how to use them should be sufficient. The Ukrainian military has already proven it’s up to the task.

And of course continue to supply information which I’m sure is already being done via satellite imaging and communications which have been intercepted.

 

[VaqueroTD]

I don’t know anymore. Sitting back and letting Putin massacre and murder innocent woman and children ? It’s Hitler and Stalin all over again. Is this how the world has progressed in the 60ish years since those
monsters ? NATO and the EU have given Putin a red line in regards to using chemical and biological weapons. They should add targeting and murdering civilians to the red line: you massacre civilians and there will be a no fly zone within 48 hours.
Also tiring too of the fear of Putin saber rattling his nukes. Based on his army’s recent performance, he’d be lucky to get a nuke fired successfully - or have it not turn around and land in Moscow. Call the bully’s bluff: I highly doubt that his rich buddies and generals want their families to die to follow this Stalin wannabe. Plus, he and they know the WEST outclasses them militarily - including nukes - and that they would be on the receiving end of an infinitely more devastating response. This appeasement stuff leading to murdering innocents is hard to watch.

There have been a lot more atrocities and genocides than just Hitler and Stalin since WW2. Over half the stuff Americans buy these days were built by China and other countries that have human rights records that look like mud so let's not act like we have a record of stopping this.

Just because this war is on everyone's twitter and cell phone doesn't mean we do anything different than we did during the Cold War. Be cool, be smart, and don't drag the world into Armageddon. I feel for the Ukrainian people and any civilians caught in a war, but it is what it is.

 

[MaineBoy]

There have been a lot more atrocities and genocides than just Hitler and Stalin since WW2. Over half the stuff Americans buy these days were built by China and other countries that have human rights records that look like mud so let's not act like we have a record of stopping this.

Just because this war is on everyone's twitter and cell phone doesn't mean we do anything different than we did during the Cold War. Be cool, be smart, and don't drag the world into Armageddon. I feel for the Ukrainian people and any civilians caught in a war, but it is what it is.

I think you’d agree that nothing since Hitler is even in the same universe as the examples you cited: he started a war that killed about 50 million people and industrialized State mass murder that exterminated about 8 million people. And democracy does have a pretty good record stopping Hitler and Mussolini and Tojo - once they were forced to get off the sidelines. Back then they played it cool too in the beginning while thousands upon thousands were murdered. Maybe giving advanced weaponry to Ukraine will be enough. My original point was not general escalation, but a limited red line: you use chemical or biological weapons, or target and murder civilians - a no fly zone is coming your way in 48 hours.

 

[Reality]

I think NATO should provide arms, including older fighter jets that Ukraine pilots are familiar with, as well as state of the art air defense weapons. Keeping the Russians from gaining air-superiority is critical.

That was the point of Poland sending Ukraine it's mig fighter planes before the deal fell through because the Ukrainian pilots were familiar with those planes.

 

[nobody]

I didn’t advocate sending troops in, but instead enforce a no fly zone. Ukraine has proven they have the infantry to do the job by themselves on the ground. And keep sending them lots of weapons.

But to enforce a no-fly zone you would have to fire on Russian jets and choppers which means NATO would be escalating just by enforcing it and firing on them. It's not that easy unfortunately.

Before you say they'd kill Putin before allowing him to use nukes, even in a limited tactical way against Ukraine, keep in mind he's been purging those around who might not be loyal...and the two other people needed besides Putin to authorize nukes have been missing for over a month. I think the only thing preventing him from using them in a tactical way against Ukraine is that he wants the region intact for grain growing and it's resources. But if he feels has has nothing to lose and will be taken out soon? That changes things. Our best hope is a coup or Russia rising up and removing him from power quickly.

 

[MaineBoy]

But to enforce a no-fly zone you would have to fire on Russian jets and choppers which means NATO would be escalating just by enforcing it and firing on them. It's not that easy unfortunately.

Before you say they'd kill Putin before allowing him to use nukes, even in a limited tactical way against Ukraine, keep in mind he's been purging those around who might not be loyal...and the two other people needed besides Putin to authorize nukes have been missing for over a month. I think the only thing preventing him from using them in a tactical way against Ukraine is that he wants the region intact for grain growing and it's resources. But if he feels has has nothing to lose and will be taken out soon? That changes things. Our best hope is a coup or Russia rising up and removing him from power quickly.

It seems unless action is taken, Putin is not going to stop attacking or killing civilians. His sorry *** army can’t beat people who shoot back so they attack civilians instead. Yup, if a no fly zone is implemented it’s up to Putin to decide if they will challenge it. If they choose to challenge it, they are choosing to lose aircraft. That’s what happens when you start a war - you lose stuff. But Putin isn’t going to stop by asking him to. You’re right: our best hope is that as more Russian body bags return to Russia and the economy starts collapsing, the Kremlin’s power brokers realize Putin is a losing hand.

 

[sbark]

Need to add to the discussion
Zelenski and his Azov jackboots have been shelling ethnic Russians in Dombass province for past 10 years......14000 plus dead

Study this Azov battalion well......it's a reflection of Zelinski, and the entire Ukraine govt.

Study the c-eye-a presence there for 30 years
Study the money laundering

Putin no saint......but it's no time to start believing cnn, abc, nbc, fox...

 

[Reality]

Need to add to the discussion
Zelenski and his Azov jackboots have been shelling ethnic Russians in Dombass province for past 10 years......14000 plus dead

Study this Azov battalion well......it's a reflection of Zelinski, and the entire Ukraine govt.

Study the c-eye-a presence there for 30 years
Study the money laundering

Putin no saint......but it's no time to start believing cnn, abc, nbc, fox...

Zelenskyy has only been president for 3 years and he ran on the foundation of bringing Ukrainians and Russian-Ukranians together.

I am not saying he could not have done a better job, but let's not ignore the fact that Russia has been supplying the Russian separatists in eastern Ukraine with weapons and other military forms of support for all those years as well.

A pseudo-war was already happening in eastern Ukraine spurred on by Russia's involvement long before they invaded Ukraine or even when they invaded and took control of Crimea.

While no war or battles have innocent parties on all levels, it is a fair assessment to say that Russia's involvement in Dombass and other eastern areas of Ukraine along with Crimea in the South have caused a lot of the battles and attacks to intensify over what they would have been without Russia's involvement.

 

[RJ_MacReady]

A pseudo-war was already happening in eastern Ukraine spurred on by Russia's involvement long before they invaded Ukraine or even when they invaded and took control of Crimea.

There are many factors and actors that created the curent situation in Eastern Ukraine. Outside influences and massive corruption from BOTH sides.

 

[Reality]

There are many factors and actors that created the curent situation in Eastern Ukraine. Outside influences and massive corruption from BOTH sides.

I basically stated that in my post that both sides were not without blame on some level.

 

[JJHLH1]

Bad news for Russia.

Their default, in combination with their war crimes, will make raising foreign capital extremely difficult.

You can’t be a global superpower if your economy is weak.