Safety is not priority number one in this draft

[Idgit]

Let me add, just because you don't draft a certain position high doesn't mean you need to rely on spares like Alan Ball, Phil Costa, etc. Good front offices can find solid players regardless if it is from the draft, UDFA, or smart Free agent signings. Drafting in the first two rounds or throwing 50 million dollars at a player are not the only ways to find talent.

They took Wilcox and said on draft day that he was a player the envisioned becoming a starter for them. I can see them relying on him there next year and rolling the dice. I just don't like it very much. Mostly because Heath looks like a role player at best and Johnson can't stay healthy and we have zero depth behind one and half capable starters. Yuck.

 

[Alexander]

Impact player should be the priority. That philosophy has binded us for years.

Would you take any of these safeties over guys like Donald and Jernigan or Kony?[/quote]
Take the best player who fills the need the best. It is really not that hard.

 

[Denim Chicken]

Hey I agree the safety play has not been good/consistent for several seasons.

But I think the strong safety position is Church's. I can't imagine Dallas drafting another safety like him.

That leaves the FS spot and quite frankly I'm not seeing a lot of folks there that I think would come in and play the deep safety spot on the field with fewer errors (the upcoming season) than either Wilcox or Heath. You're going to have that learning curve with any of them.

This is one position where I would consider a vet in FA.

 

[jazzcat22]

Would you take any of these safeties over guys like Donald and Jernigan or Kony?
Take the best player who fills the need the best. It is really not that hard.

Agree, don't over think it, then they get in trouble and snowballs from there.

 

[Miller]

Evidence is impossible to deny.

Dallas has had a pro bowl DL virtually every year. Many times 2 or more while the defense overall has sucked.
Yet the last time a Cowboys DB made the pro bowl we made the playoffs. 2009.
The last time this team looked dominant was 2007. Ken Hamlin and RW31 BOTH made the Pro Bowl.

You can't get by without pressure on the QB. CAN NOT do it. But you also can't use all your resources on pressure guys and expect to get by with a bum at Safety much less a bum plus a near bum.

Dallas let a top 10 pick in RW31 go and didn't bother replacing him at all. We've been content to toss round 4 and round 5 picks at the position and we're obviously terrible at evaluating that position.

Right!!As you said, we've had top players on the D line but the safeties still got exploited. It's a little of both but you can't ignore the safety position when a top person helps the line too. They are the field general. We haven't had one of those in a long while.

 

[jterrell]

Hey I agree the safety play has not been good/consistent for several seasons.

But I think the strong safety position is Church's. I can't imagine Dallas drafting another safety like him.

That leaves the FS spot and quite frankly I'm not seeing a lot of folks there that I think would come in and play the deep safety spot on the field with fewer errors (the upcoming season) than either Wilcox or Heath. You're going to have that learning curve with any of them.

Understood.

I think Church was a below avg starting SS(coming off injury and lacking exp) but the least of our worries.
Fact he was playing FS out of position was an issue.

Wilcox has NFL FS talent but he has no idea what he's doing. He can run with guys and cover but seems he has yet to take a decent NFL angle and he is as liable to line up at OLB as FS. I think you can teach guys where to line up and who to cover in a year so I have some hope for Wilcox but far form confidence.

Heath lacks NFL talent and ball skills imho. Great athlete and maybe you can build what he lacks but that's not some easy fix. It is a serious skill set that takes tons of reps. He looks a couple more years away but should be a great special teamer with his pure athleticism.

I think it fairly obvious Pryor or Dix are clear upgrades at FS. Saban is a very good DB coach and Bama runs NFL caliber DB drills. Dix may not have elite upside but he isn't going to get roflstomped like the current options. Pryor looks awfully good as well though it is a very different game playing the Louisville schedule versus an NFL one. I am also very high on Lamarcus Joyner, midget status not withstanding. He can flat play. Very Honey Badger.

I'd tend to look round 1 or 2 at Safety because I don't believe Dallas is gonna get great value at safety. Don;t trust them to identify some round 4 or 5 guy that can really play anytime soon.

But to be clear I am not forcing a pick there just to take one though I'd not at all hesitate if I have the round ground on one where I sat.

Free Agency: Hard to see the top guys coming available but we were REALLY REALLY bad. Bet we could add a mid-tier FS without too much difficulty.
Certainly better players than Will Allen out there and it turned out to look pretty bad that we released him.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Understood.

I think Church was a below avg starting SS(coming off injury and lacking exp) but the least of our worries.
Fact he was playing FS out of position was an issue.

Wilcox has NFL FS talent but he has no idea what he's doing. He can run with guys and cover but seems he has yet to take a decent NFL angle and he is as liable to line up at OLB as FS. I think you can teach guys where to line up and who to cover in a year so I have some hope for Wilcox but far form confidence.

Heath lacks NFL talent and ball skills imho. Great athlete and maybe you can build what he lacks but that's not some easy fix. It is a serious skill set that takes tons of reps. He looks a couple more years away but should be a great special teamer with his pure athleticism.

I think it fairly obvious Pryor or Dix are clear upgrades at FS. Saban is a very good DB coach and Bama runs NFL caliber DB drills. Dix may not have elite upside but he isn't going to get roflstomped like the current options. Pryor looks awfully good as well though it is a very different game playing the Louisville schedule versus an NFL one. I am also very high on Lamarcus Joyner, midget status not withstanding. He can flat play. Very Honey Badger.

I'd tend to look round 1 or 2 at Safety because I don't believe Dallas is gonna get great value at safety. Don;t trust them to identify some round 4 or 5 guy that can really play anytime soon.

But to be clear I am not forcing a pick there just to take one though I'd not at all hesitate if I have the round ground on one where I sat.

Free Agency: Hard to see the top guys coming available but we were REALLY REALLY bad. Bet we could add a mid-tier FS without too much difficulty.
Certainly better players than Will Allen out there and it turned out to look pretty bad that we released him.

Agreed that forcing a pick wouldn't be a good idea.

Hey if a top-flight safety were there in round 1 and he represented a better value than any defensive lineman chosen there, then I'm on board with it.

 

[jterrell]

Agree with all of this.

Church is already a nice player and someone else could and should develop into a good safety.



We need DL and LB's far worse than we need anything else.

Bruce Carters season really hurt us as well as far as how we plan for this offseason.

The problem with Winks take here is that drafting a guy in rounds 4 and 5 hardly make them a legit NFL player; especially early in their careers.

It is like saying we drafted David Arkin so we shouldn't have drafted more OGs.....

What you have is what matters, not what you spent previously.

At one point Dallas had Woody and RW31. Thats a Hall of Famer and a top 10 pick.
Woody left and our defense has never recovered.
We spent money on Hamlin and had bits of great play but it was expensive and uneven.
So for some reason we thought we could just plug in round 4 and round 5 safeties and be fine.
That's been proven hilariously wrong.

We've got the best pressure guy this team has ever known in Ware but still sucked far too many years on defense.
Ware has played with VERY GOOD DL. Ratliff, Hatcher, Spencer all very good NFL players.
Our safeties are guys who could get 300k for another team maybe if we cut them all today.
A team would give more than the total value of all 3 for Spencer on crutches.

 

[wileedog]

Understood.

I think Church was a below avg starting SS(coming off injury and lacking exp) but the least of our worries.
Fact he was playing FS out of position was an issue.

Wilcox has NFL FS talent but he has no idea what he's doing. He can run with guys and cover but seems he has yet to take a decent NFL angle and he is as liable to line up at OLB as FS. I think you can teach guys where to line up and who to cover in a year so I have some hope for Wilcox but far form confidence.

Could not agree more. IMO Safety has been an Achilles heel in the backfield for years, and we have done nothing but trot out small school projects and journeyman FAs season after season to address it. Heath is never gonna be more than a special teams guy IMO and the fact that Wilcox couldn't get on the field behind him is a huge red flag to me.

I know the front 7 has glaring holes too, but I would love it if we could shore up safety finally, especially if we are going to play a defensive scheme that emphasizes strong safety play.

 

[Parcells4Life]

As I stated before, Detroit has a great inside rush to push the pocket and their D is nothing special.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Hey if a top-flight safety were there in round 1 and he represented a better value than any defensive lineman chosen there, then I'm on board with it.

You want to moderate the board after that pick?

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I am sure its a wild coincidence that Seattle has the best safety combo in the league.

they are driven by their DL. if you can put pressure on the QB, with your front 4 and 5, then you drop people back into passing lanes. yes, having safties with range helps. but when they don't have to blitz or come up for consistant run support. it makes running the defense a lot better. plus a DL, will make the safties look really good and that's what you are seeing.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

While I will not discount the absolute need for pass rushers, last season QB just had to throw the ball up for grabs when pressured. Safety play was that bad.

so was the DL. I would go to the fridge, make a sandwich, grab soda, run to the store, took a dump and the opposing QB was sitting on a lounge chair smoking a cigar, watching film and still looking for somebody to throw to.

 

[jterrell]

You want to moderate the board after that pick?

I am sure moderating after last year's passing of Floyd was about as tough as it gets.

But I am also sure Mods would be glad to work OT on Draft Day if it meant watching playoff wins.

There are probably about 5 spots Dallas can instantly paint in a day 1 starter. You give me one of those and I'll not complain.

 

[jterrell]

they are driven by their DL. if you can put pressure on the QB, with your front 4 and 5, then you drop people back into passing lanes. yes, having safties with range helps. but when they don't have to blitz or come up for consistant run support. it makes running the defense a lot better. plus a DL, will make the safties look really good and that's what you are seeing.

Seattle has BY FAR the NFL's best defensive backfield.
They are what leads that defense and anyone including the DL in Seattle realize and openly admit that.

The DL can make plays because no one is ever really open.
Windows when they exist are very tight forcing risky throws.

Seattle plays downhill at you because they have zero fear of anything thrown 20+ yards.

The Seattle DL is very sound and unfairly deep but they are not the best DL in football.
Seattle's 44 sacks were solid but nothing like it's league leading 28 INT.

Carolina had 60 sacks and 20 INT. That's a team lead by it's DL.

There is little doubt there is a symbiotic relationship between pressure and coverage but being able to cover is hardly some meaningless skill that anyone can employ with good pressure. Again there is a reason you don't just rush 11. No matter how good the rush or how fast you have to cover. Same as you can't just drop 11. It takes both components to play defense.

 

[StevenOtero]

Guys, I get the argument in favor of needing stellar DB's. I really do.

However, I don't believe our DB's are complete scrubs. If they get a pass rush, their game will be elevated. Will it be on par with Seattle? Hell no. Will it be better than the worst defense in franchise history? It's safe to say, yes.

 

[CATCH17]

Guys, I get the argument in favor of needing stellar DB's. I really do.

However, I don't believe our DB's are complete scrubs. If they get a pass rush, their game will be elevated. Will it be on par with Seattle? Hell no. Will it be better than the worst defense in franchise history? It's safe to say, yes.

Plus.. We've gone the route of building from the back towards the line. It has got us absolutely no where.

It's time to start stockpiling pass rushers. That is our shortcut to success.

Get more aggressive on offense.. Which we won't but still... Then tee off on the opposing QB's once we've got a lead.

 

[jterrell]

so was the DL. I would go to the fridge, make a sandwich, grab soda, run to the store, took a dump and the opposing QB was sitting on a lounge chair smoking a cigar, watching film and still looking for somebody to throw to.

perhaps less dumping and more watching football... you obviously missed a lot of long up for grab heaves that ended up as big plays for the other team.
dallas was pretty bad with pressure last year at only 25th in the league.

but they were historically bad in coverage... as in the team's worst ever... EVER. Taylor Swift style ever.

our safeties couldn't have fair caught a punt.
we pretty much provided all the film calvin johnson will need for his hall of fame induction ceremony in one game. 329 yards receiving is a good season for many guys.

 

[casmith07]

Guys, I get the argument in favor of needing stellar DB's. I really do.

However, I don't believe our DB's are complete scrubs. If they get a pass rush, their game will be elevated. Will it be on par with Seattle? Hell no. Will it be better than the worst defense in franchise history? It's safe to say, yes.

Seattle has two guys who are tops at their position in the secondary - Earl Thomas, and Richard Sherman. Earl Thomas, to me, is a great player, but still not the "greatest safety of all time" like it seems the Zone wants to believe. Richard Sherman, however, is easily the best CB in the game. Everything about his game is not only fundamentally sound, but he's also a superior athlete at the position.

I don't think that Brandon Carr, Orlando Scandrick, or Morris Claiborne are on Richard Sherman's level. Barry Church and JJ Wilcox are not on Earl Thomas' level. HOWEVER, as a UNIT, with a similar pass rush, I would put our secondary up against Seattle's. I think we can be close enough to as good as Seattle as long as we get the right guys up front. Seattle is able to generate Dick LeBeau style blitz pressure with four bodies up front. I don't think people understand how remarkable that is in today's pass-happy NFL.

We are also significantly better at Linebacker with Sean Lee than anybody on Seattle's defense. If we are able to generate consistent, pocket-collapsing pressure with four guys like Seattle is, we will be very good on defense.

 

[jterrell]

Guys, I get the argument in favor of needing stellar DB's. I really do.

However, I don't believe our DB's are complete scrubs. If they get a pass rush, their game will be elevated. Will it be on par with Seattle? Hell no. Will it be better than the worst defense in franchise history? It's safe to say, yes.

yes, they are scrubs. thus the issue.

NFL caliber safeties should be able to line up and end up in the proper position every play.
JJ Wilcox could not do that.

NFL caliber safeties should be no worse than 60-70% on knocking ball down at least on deep balls.
Heath was at about 10%.

No one is saying trade our entire draft for the top guy.
We are saying the current group IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO STOP ANYONE.