Sheldon Richardson for a 4th (speculation)?

[waldoputty]

That doesn't change what he's done the past couple seasons. He's already peaked and is going downhill

i guess you are basing this on his stats after the jets played him all over the place including LB...
and you are saying a player on the last year of his rookie contract has peaked and going downhill
i dont think he has any major injuries

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

i guess you are basing this on his stats after the jets played him all over the place including LB...
and you are saying a player on the last year of his rookie contract has peaked and going downhill
i dont think he has any major injuries

I'm saying he lacks motivation and is one drug test from a big suspension. He played great for a couple years and has rested on his reputation since. Hasn't been the same disruptive player.

 

[waldoputty]

I'm saying he lacks motivation and is one drug test from a big suspension. He played great for a couple years and has rested on his reputation since. Hasn't been the same disruptive player.

so you are not saying he is physically in decline.
but that his play has suffered, which could be both his fault and the fact that he plays on the jets.
he clearly has a lot of trouble with the team given all his outbursts even as of Dec 2016.

you cannot trade for a daddy for less than a 1st round pick or more.
so there is the risk and reward.

well if he is suspended, we do not have to pay.
he is clearly not a gregory.
if he plays well, we can franchise tag him twice.

furthermore if you trade for him after the draft, you can use a 2018 pick.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

so you are not saying he is physically in decline.
but that his play has suffered, which could be both his fault and the fact that he plays on the jets.
he clearly has a lot of trouble with the team given all his outbursts even as of Dec 2016.

you cannot trade for a daddy for less than a 1st round pick or more.
so there is the risk and reward.

well if he is suspended, we do not have to pay.
he is clearly not a gregory.
if he plays well, we can franchise tag him twice.

furthermore if you trade for him after the draft, you can use a 2018 pick.

His play hasn't been at a "daddy" level the past 2 years. You dont trade a pick and pay a guy who already has motivation problems.

I'm not worried about paying him when he's suspended for his repeated stupidity, I'm worried about him being available when we are relying on him.

 

[waldoputty]

His play hasn't been at a "daddy" level the past 2 years. You dont trade a pick and pay a guy who already has motivation problems.

I'm not worried about paying him when he's suspended for his repeated stupidity, I'm worried about him being available when we are relying on him.

picks are picks, risk.
just another risk
we had one historic draft, and some expect each year to be more of the same.

we are talking defensive rookie of the year - look at the talent level - there are no misses.
2010 Ndamukong Suh Detroit Lions Defensive tackle
2011 Von Miller Denver Broncos Linebacker [12]
2012 Luke Kuechly Carolina Panthers Linebacker [13]
2013 Sheldon Richardson New York Jets Defensive end [14]
2014 Aaron Donald St. Louis Rams Defensive tackle [15]
2015 Marcus Peters Kansas City Chiefs Cornerback [16]
2016 Joey Bosa San Diego Chargers Defensive end [

given the likely daddy level of talent and you can get him for a 2nd or 3rd, that is a bargain.
this is not a gregory drug problem and he is a malcontent which could well be partially due to the crap team he was on.
furthermore, if he plays up to snuff, you can franchise him or sign him long term.

for 2017, there are also not many choices lol
he could be THE missing piece assuming we pick up a couple decent DBs.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

picks are picks, risk.
just another risk
we had one historic draft, and some expect each year to be more of the same.

we are talking defensive rookie of the year - look at the talent level - there are no misses.
2010 Ndamukong Suh Detroit Lions Defensive tackle
2011 Von Miller Denver Broncos Linebacker [12]
2012 Luke Kuechly Carolina Panthers Linebacker [13]
2013 Sheldon Richardson New York Jets Defensive end [14]
2014 Aaron Donald St. Louis Rams Defensive tackle [15]
2015 Marcus Peters Kansas City Chiefs Cornerback [16]
2016 Joey Bosa San Diego Chargers Defensive end [

given the likely daddy level of talent and you can get him for a 2nd or 3rd, that is a bargain.
this is not a gregory drug problem and he is a malcontent which could well be partially due to the crap team he was on.
furthermore, if he plays up to snuff, you can franchise him or sign him long term.

for 2017, there are also not many choices lol
he could be THE missing piece assuming we pick up a couple decent DBs.

I don't know how you can assume daddy level of play when he is now three years removed from such

 

[waldoputty]

He was suspended for 4 games for pot use a couple years ago - apparently he stopped or knows how not to get caught
There was the driving at 143 mph - bad and stupid - but suspect a few cowboys have done that.
Then there is the social media complaining about the game - i dont see anything wrong with that.
Then the final thing:
After Saturday’s 41-3 loss to the Patriots, it’s not hard to find people who think the Jets should be embarrassed about their performance. That feeling apparently extends to the Jets locker room. Jets defensive tackle Sheldon Richardson unloaded on wide receiver Brandon Marshall after the game. “He should be embarrassed,” Richardson said, via Manish Mehta of the New York Daily News. “There’s no reason. He just should be.”

So he may not be good in the locker room. Not good.
He does not like losing - that is good...

 

[waldoputty]

I don't know how you can assume daddy level of play when he is now three years removed from such

did not say daddy level of play.
he has daddy level of talent.
look at the list of DROY.

when we traded a 2nd round pick for Haley - there were concerns too.
there is risk in everything, including the draft.

not willing to trade a 4th round pick for richardson is madness.
unless you expect another Dak next year in the 4th...
there are apparently 2 teams talking a 4th pick, lets hope the cowboys are one of them.

on a winning team, he may possibly be a great team mate
look at his draft profile - no sign of off-the-field trouble:

OVERVIEW
Richardson could have gone anywhere to play major college football after his stint at the College of the Sequoias, as he was one of the top junior college prospects in the country even with missing all but two games of the 2010 season there because of a wrist injury. But the former star player at St. Louis' Gateway Tech High School decided to return home instead of going to Southern California, Miami (Fla.), or an SEC power.

He originally planned on signing with Missouri out of high school, after being rated the top defensive lineman in the country by several recruiting services (he had 19 sacks as a senior, also eight touchdowns as a tight end), but did not qualify academically. There were some anxious moments before the 2011 season as well, because Richardson needed to finish course work in August before the NCAA deemed he was eligible to play for the Tigers. He played through a shoulder injury (which required surgery in the offseason) and only started two games on the year, but made enough plays as a reserve (37 tackles, eight for loss, two sacks) to garner honorable mention All-Big 12 honors from league coaches.

Missouri’s move to the SEC coincided with Richardson taking over one of the starting defensive tackle positions. Richardson had a standout season, earning second-team All-SEC honors as one of the lone bright spots on a Missouri team that was often overmatched against superior competition. He led all interior defensive linemen in the conference in tackles (75), adding 10.5 tackles for loss and 4.5 sacks for good measure.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
Scouts like the light feet Richardson shows for his size, as he is able to twist inside and chase plays to the sideline with great speed. That agility, combined with his length, makes him a strong tackler in close quarters. Richardson's first step off the snap, especially when lined up over the ball, is quite impressive; he gets into the backfield in a heartbeat, beating reach-blocks and will work his way through double-teams if he sees the ball in the quarterback's hands. He plays with leverage at the point of attack at times despite his height, holding his ground and wrestling with attitude. Has enough athleticism that Missouri uses him as a standup rusher and to drop into short zone coverages over the middle of the field, where shows the ability to cover crossing receivers and tight ends in a short area.
WEAKNESSES
Richardson's upper-body strength is not elite, which means his high pad level and failure to use his hands to shed blocks can allow him to get turned from the hole and taken to the ground once off-balance. He had surgery in the offseason to repair a shoulder injury, so he must show his strength has improved. A better player in pursuit than he is holding the point against the run, where he can struggle to anchor. Drag-down lunging tackler who misses ball carriers in space.
NFL COMPARISON
Cullen Jenkins
BOTTOM LINE
Richardson was forced to go the junior college route, then missed most of his sophomore year due to injury before attending his home state school in Columbia; he wasn't a starter in 2011, but showed off the athleticism (eight tackles for loss, two sacks) to make scouts think 2012 could be a break-out year. He had a superb junior campaign, and his role grew extensively with Missouri using him in a variety of roles.

 

[BAT]

did not say daddy level of play.
he has daddy level of talent.
look at the list of DROY.

when we traded a 2nd round pick for Haley - there were concerns too.
there is risk in everything, including the draft.

not willing to trade a 4th round pick for richardson is madness.
unless you expect another Dak next year in the 4th...
there are apparently 2 teams talking a 4th pick, lets hope the cowboys are one of them.

on a winning team, he may possibly be a great team mate
look at his draft profile - no sign of off-the-field trouble:

OVERVIEW
Richardson could have gone anywhere to play major college football after his stint at the College of the Sequoias, as he was one of the top junior college prospects in the country even with missing all but two games of the 2010 season there because of a wrist injury. But the former star player at St. Louis' Gateway Tech High School decided to return home instead of going to Southern California, Miami (Fla.), or an SEC power.

He originally planned on signing with Missouri out of high school, after being rated the top defensive lineman in the country by several recruiting services (he had 19 sacks as a senior, also eight touchdowns as a tight end), but did not qualify academically. There were some anxious moments before the 2011 season as well, because Richardson needed to finish course work in August before the NCAA deemed he was eligible to play for the Tigers. He played through a shoulder injury (which required surgery in the offseason) and only started two games on the year, but made enough plays as a reserve (37 tackles, eight for loss, two sacks) to garner honorable mention All-Big 12 honors from league coaches.

Missouri’s move to the SEC coincided with Richardson taking over one of the starting defensive tackle positions. Richardson had a standout season, earning second-team All-SEC honors as one of the lone bright spots on a Missouri team that was often overmatched against superior competition. He led all interior defensive linemen in the conference in tackles (75), adding 10.5 tackles for loss and 4.5 sacks for good measure.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
Scouts like the light feet Richardson shows for his size, as he is able to twist inside and chase plays to the sideline with great speed. That agility, combined with his length, makes him a strong tackler in close quarters. Richardson's first step off the snap, especially when lined up over the ball, is quite impressive; he gets into the backfield in a heartbeat, beating reach-blocks and will work his way through double-teams if he sees the ball in the quarterback's hands. He plays with leverage at the point of attack at times despite his height, holding his ground and wrestling with attitude. Has enough athleticism that Missouri uses him as a standup rusher and to drop into short zone coverages over the middle of the field, where shows the ability to cover crossing receivers and tight ends in a short area.
WEAKNESSES
Richardson's upper-body strength is not elite, which means his high pad level and failure to use his hands to shed blocks can allow him to get turned from the hole and taken to the ground once off-balance. He had surgery in the offseason to repair a shoulder injury, so he must show his strength has improved. A better player in pursuit than he is holding the point against the run, where he can struggle to anchor. Drag-down lunging tackler who misses ball carriers in space.
NFL COMPARISON
Cullen Jenkins
BOTTOM LINE
Richardson was forced to go the junior college route, then missed most of his sophomore year due to injury before attending his home state school in Columbia; he wasn't a starter in 2011, but showed off the athleticism (eight tackles for loss, two sacks) to make scouts think 2012 could be a break-out year. He had a superb junior campaign, and his role grew extensively with Missouri using him in a variety of roles.

Would trade for a 2018 4th.

 

[negativecreep]

I Don't condone any trade where we lose draft choices, IMO, our 4th could be just as good as Sheldon, but not such a big a hole.

 

[waldoputty]

I Don't condone any trade where we lose draft choices, IMO, our 4th could be just as good as Sheldon, but not such a big a hole.

OMG, so this is the consequence of a historic draft in 2016.
any Cowboys draft choice > a defensive rookie of the year in his prime

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

did not say daddy level of play.
he has daddy level of talent.
look at the list of DROY.

when we traded a 2nd round pick for Haley - there were concerns too.
there is risk in everything, including the draft.

not willing to trade a 4th round pick for richardson is madness.
unless you expect another Dak next year in the 4th...
there are apparently 2 teams talking a 4th pick, lets hope the cowboys are one of them.

on a winning team, he may possibly be a great team mate
look at his draft profile - no sign of off-the-field trouble:

OVERVIEW
Richardson could have gone anywhere to play major college football after his stint at the College of the Sequoias, as he was one of the top junior college prospects in the country even with missing all but two games of the 2010 season there because of a wrist injury. But the former star player at St. Louis' Gateway Tech High School decided to return home instead of going to Southern California, Miami (Fla.), or an SEC power.

He originally planned on signing with Missouri out of high school, after being rated the top defensive lineman in the country by several recruiting services (he had 19 sacks as a senior, also eight touchdowns as a tight end), but did not qualify academically. There were some anxious moments before the 2011 season as well, because Richardson needed to finish course work in August before the NCAA deemed he was eligible to play for the Tigers. He played through a shoulder injury (which required surgery in the offseason) and only started two games on the year, but made enough plays as a reserve (37 tackles, eight for loss, two sacks) to garner honorable mention All-Big 12 honors from league coaches.

Missouri’s move to the SEC coincided with Richardson taking over one of the starting defensive tackle positions. Richardson had a standout season, earning second-team All-SEC honors as one of the lone bright spots on a Missouri team that was often overmatched against superior competition. He led all interior defensive linemen in the conference in tackles (75), adding 10.5 tackles for loss and 4.5 sacks for good measure.

ANALYSIS
STRENGTHS
Scouts like the light feet Richardson shows for his size, as he is able to twist inside and chase plays to the sideline with great speed. That agility, combined with his length, makes him a strong tackler in close quarters. Richardson's first step off the snap, especially when lined up over the ball, is quite impressive; he gets into the backfield in a heartbeat, beating reach-blocks and will work his way through double-teams if he sees the ball in the quarterback's hands. He plays with leverage at the point of attack at times despite his height, holding his ground and wrestling with attitude. Has enough athleticism that Missouri uses him as a standup rusher and to drop into short zone coverages over the middle of the field, where shows the ability to cover crossing receivers and tight ends in a short area.
WEAKNESSES
Richardson's upper-body strength is not elite, which means his high pad level and failure to use his hands to shed blocks can allow him to get turned from the hole and taken to the ground once off-balance. He had surgery in the offseason to repair a shoulder injury, so he must show his strength has improved. A better player in pursuit than he is holding the point against the run, where he can struggle to anchor. Drag-down lunging tackler who misses ball carriers in space.
NFL COMPARISON
Cullen Jenkins
BOTTOM LINE
Richardson was forced to go the junior college route, then missed most of his sophomore year due to injury before attending his home state school in Columbia; he wasn't a starter in 2011, but showed off the athleticism (eight tackles for loss, two sacks) to make scouts think 2012 could be a break-out year. He had a superb junior campaign, and his role grew extensively with Missouri using him in a variety of roles.

You mean the list that includes Brian Cushing, Jerod Mayo and Shawne Merriman? You know who else has talent? Johnny Manziel.

Are you Sheldon's agent? We get that you want to trade for the guy, but there's a reason teams aren't lining up to give the Jets a fourth-rounder for him. He might not be worth it. The player he's been the past two seasons isn't worth it.

 

[negativecreep]

OMG, so this is the consequence of a historic draft in 2016.
any Cowboys draft choice > a defensive rookie of the year in his prime

OMG, I think so. and when did I mention 2016? If he proves me wrong good for the young man. I hope if he does prove me wrong he's on our roster, I've grown an appitite for crow, not that bad. My friend I have no clue about ya, but don't put words in my mouth, please.

 

[waldoputty]

You mean the list that includes Brian Cushing, Jerod Mayo and Shawne Merriman? You know who else has talent? Johnny Manziel.

Are you Sheldon's agent? We get that you want to trade for the guy, but there's a reason teams aren't lining up to give the Jets a fourth-rounder for him. He might not be worth it. The player he's been the past two seasons isn't worth it.

Ok, I went and googled those players.
Mayo was actually in 2 pro bowls before several injuries that derailed his career.
Merriman actually was a war daddy that was often considered to be superior to Ware before his knee? injury in his 4th year, after which he was never the same.
Cushing made 2nd team all pro before acl in his 3rd year and another major injury in his 4th year.

the fact is Richardson is healthy and not derailed like the 3 that you mentioned.

yes, having a historic draft of 2016 has made people expect a repeat.
treat all the draft picks like gold!

lets remind ourselves of the last few 4th round picks:
2016: Dak - I guess you are expecting another Dak, of course!
2015: Wilson - did nothing until late in 2nd year
2014: Hitchens
2013: BW Webb
2012: Kyle Wilber, Matt Johnson
2011: David Arkin

 

[waldoputty]

OMG, I think so. and when did I mention 2016? If he proves me wrong good for the young man. I hope if he does prove me wrong he's on our roster, I've grown an appitite for crow, not that bad. My friend I have no clue about ya, but don't put words in my mouth, please.

well did you not say you will not condone any trade that requires any cowboys draft pick?
richardson is a former defensive rookie of the year.

i was simply trying to rationalize a season why anyone would prefer a 4th round pick or any other pick over a former defensive rookie of year in his prime.

i would also gladly eat many servings of crow if we get another draft of 2016.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

Ok, I went and googled those players.
Mayo was actually in 2 pro bowls before several injuries that derailed his career.
Merriman actually was a war daddy that was often considered to be superior to Ware before his knee? injury in his 4th year, after which he was never the same.
Cushing made 2nd team all pro before acl in his 3rd year and another major injury in his 4th year.

the fact is Richardson is healthy and not derailed like the 3 that you mentioned.

yes, having a historic draft of 2016 has made people expect a repeat.
treat all the draft picks like gold!

lets remind ourselves of the last few 4th round picks:
2016: Dak - I guess you are expecting another Dak, of course!
2015: Wilson - did nothing until late in 2nd year
2014: Hitchens
2013: BW Webb
2012: Kyle Wilber, Matt Johnson
2011: David Arkin

You still haven't addressed that his last two seasons have been his worst. That by itself is enough to raise concern.

And he's been a bit of a malcontent. And he's already tested positive for pot four times. And he's been suspended for violating the personal conduct policy. So the dude has proven that he's not reliable.

If he's a FA and you want to bring him in on a one-year prove-it deal, that's one thing. To give up draft resources is idiotic. You're a smart guy, I don't understand why you can't see this.

 

[waldoputty]

You still haven't addressed that his last two seasons have been his worst. That by itself is enough to raise concern.

And he's been a bit of a malcontent. And he's already tested positive for pot four times. And he's been suspended for violating the personal conduct policy. So the dude has proven that he's not reliable.

If he's a FA and you want to bring him in on a one-year prove-it deal, that's one thing. To give up draft resources is idiotic. You're a smart guy, I don't understand why you can't see this.

it is very simple.
he is clearly a very talented guy.
you are not getting someone of his talent in the 2nd round and probably not in the 28th pick in the 1st round.
so you can get him at a huge discount.
there is a reason for a discount, and it is his behavior.

if he was a gregory druggie, i would say no way.
but he is not.
he has not had a drug suspension since 2 years ago?
the suspension last year was for idiot behavior.
our own zeke just had idiot behavior (though did not endanger anyone) just a couple weeks ago.

he is clearly a malcontent.
but he is a malcontent in the dysfunctional Jets.

a 4th round pick or even a 3rd round pick for someone with that level of talent is a huge discount.
how is he any different than a 1 years FA.
if he is good, you can franchise him.
our drafting after the 1st round has not been exactly stellar.
i really think the draft of 2016 has made many overvalue draft picks.
it is highly unlikely for 2017 to have anywhere near the success of the 2016 draft.
of course, i would love to be wrong about this.

 

[waldoputty]

You still haven't addressed that his last two seasons have been his worst. That by itself is enough to raise concern.

And he's been a bit of a malcontent. And he's already tested positive for pot four times. And he's been suspended for violating the personal conduct policy. So the dude has proven that he's not reliable.

If he's a FA and you want to bring him in on a one-year prove-it deal, that's one thing. To give up draft resources is idiotic. You're a smart guy, I don't understand why you can't see this.

in terms of drop in performance, i believe the jets had him in all types of positions. that clearly was not good for his performance, as a 300lb lb does not make a lot of sense.
do you blame him for being upset for playing him at lb?
and he is not only the super talented DL that the jets messed up.
wilkerson was having the same type of issues.
another very talented DL unhappy and underperforming - even after signing a big contract.
remember the long standoff issue with qb fitzpatrick at the jets
you notice something wrong with their management/coaching there?

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

it is very simple.
he is clearly a very talented guy.
you are not getting someone of his talent in the 2nd round and probably not in the 28th pick in the 1st round.
so you can get him at a huge discount.
there is a reason for a discount, and it is his behavior.

if he was a gregory druggie, i would say no way.
but he is not.
he has not had a drug suspension since 2 years ago?
the suspension last year was for idiot behavior.
our own zeke just had idiot behavior (though did not endanger anyone) just a couple weeks ago.

he is clearly a malcontent.
but he is a malcontent in the dysfunctional Jets.

a 4th round pick or even a 3rd round pick for someone with that level of talent is a huge discount.
how is he any different than a 1 years FA.
if he is good, you can franchise him.
our drafting after the 1st round has not been exactly stellar.
i really think the draft of 2016 has made many overvalue draft picks.
it is highly unlikely for 2017 to have anywhere near the success of the 2016 draft.
of course, i would love to be wrong about this.

But it's not just his behavior, although that's enough. It's his play on the field. His play on the field isn't worth a fourth round pick for multiple seasons now. That alone is why you don't make the deal. You don't hope that a guy had 2 bad years and hope he will magically become who he was 3 seasons ago. That's not logical.

And draft picks are valued not just because of the 2016 draft, but because you find cheap talent and can control them for a minimum of 3 years. It's how we build our team.

 

[GhostOfPelluer]

in terms of drop in performance, i believe the jets had him in all types of positions. that clearly was not good for his performance, as a 300lb lb does not make a lot of sense.
do you blame him for being upset for playing him at lb?
and he is not only the super talented DL that the jets messed up.
wilkerson was having the same type of issues.
another very talented DL unhappy and underperforming - even after signing a big contract.
remember the long standoff issue with qb fitzpatrick at the jets
you notice something wrong with their management/coaching there?

He's very talented, I've never argued that. But he's not producing up to that level of talent anymore. Especially not in 2016. BTW he played 3/4 of his snaps in his familiar DT/DE roles based on the defense they were running at the time.