Should Cowboys rethink Hardy situation?

[Idgit]

And I've never contended that "everything is wrong" either.

But I disagree that there aren't problems with the coaching staff. When Romo went down, the team didn't just get worse as a result, the coaches couldn't even field a capable offensive unit, that spoke volumes to me.

And now, having to have a 'steak on every plate' for their offense to function only reinforces my belief that the coaches aren't holding up their end in terms of scheme, innovation, flexibility, and creativity.

Injuries certainly played a big role, but it's not the 'get out of jail free' card for me like it is for some other fans (not in reference to you).

Well, I don't want to get to far into a Garrett debate in a Hardy thread. But you know I'm not happy that we lost our best QB, WR, and two best RB weapons and couldn't revert to a ball control offense and let our defense try to keep us in games. That's what I think we should have expected to do in that situation, and we were hopelessly unable to do it.

 

[Stash]

Well, I don't want to get to far into a Garrett debate in a Hardy thread. But you know I'm not happy that we lost our best QB, WR, and two best RB weapons and couldn't revert to a ball control offense and let our defense try to keep us in games. That's what I think we should have expected to do in that situation, and we were hopelessly unable to do it.

16th in defense

31st in offense

That tells me which side of the team failed to hold up their end of the bargain. And again, injuries were huge in that, but they don't absolve the coaches of any responsibility either.

And take a look at this team's offense and note how many first round talents and Pro Bowlers it has. If it is not one of, if not the most dominant offense (barring injury), there's something seriously wrong with this staff.

I cannot ever think of an offense with more on-paper talent than this one should have, not even during the days of the Triplets.

I see no excuse as to why they shouldn't be one of the very best in the league in 2016.

 

[Idgit]

16th in defense

31st in offense

That tells me which side of the team failed to hold up their end of the bargain. And again, injuries were huge in that, but they don't absolve the coaches of any responsibility either.

And take a look at this team's offense and note how many first round talents and Pro Bowlers it has. If it is not one of, if not the most dominant offense (barring injury), there's something seriously wrong with this staff.

I cannot ever think of an offense with more on-paper talent than this one should have, not even during the days of the Triplets.

I see no excuse as to why they shouldn't be one of the very best in the league in 2016.

I agree with the offense in general, but that wasn't the case in 2015, and we all know why. I don't care how good your talent is, you're not winning games at -22 in TO differential and not with 11 total team takeaways for an entire season. With Tony, Dez, and Randle/Dunbar out, the smart play was to lean on the OL and McFadden and play the high percentage passing game and hope your defense can carry you to enough wins until your offense gets back. I don't get why so many fans had a problem with that. It didn't work because we don't have enough play makers on that side of the ball. But the idea that Brandon Weeden or Matt Cassel are going to come in and beat teams with a downfield passing game to cover up the defensive shortcomings we've seen for years never made any sense. As it turned out, we didn't hold our water with Weeden and then gave control of the offense over to a couple of QBs who couldn't take care of the football. That just compounded a problem that was already significant in week 2.

 

[Stash]

I agree with the offense in general, but that wasn't the case in 2015, and we all know why. I don't care how good your talent is, you're not winning games at -22 in TO differential and not with 11 total team takeaways for an entire season. With Tony, Dez, and Randle/Dunbar out, the smart play was to lean on the OL and McFadden and play the high percentage passing game and hope your defense can carry you to enough wins until your offense gets back. I don't get why so many fans had a problem with that.

It's sound strategy, and the running game did manage to rank 9th in the league and McFadden ran for nearly 1100 yards, running game and defense held up their end for the most part. Quarterback and passing game was simply pathetic. And not having Romo and Bryant was a huge factor, just not the only one. Injuries only excuse so much.

It didn't work because we don't have enough play makers on that side of the ball. But the idea that Brandon Weeden or Matt Cassel are going to come in and beat teams with a downfield passing game to cover up the defensive shortcomings we've seen for years never made any sense. As it turned out, we didn't hold our water with Weeden and then gave control of the offense over to a couple of QBs who couldn't take care of the football. That just compounded a problem that was already significant in week 2.

True. Decision-making made a bad situation worse, not better.

But coaching and play calling didn't help matters either. There was little creativity or adjustment made with regard to the passing game, despite the obvious struggles. Teams and coaches need to be able to adapt to the personnel they do have and I feel that ours failed to do that.

 

[Idgit]

It's sound strategy, and the running game did manage to rank 9th in the league and McFadden ran for nearly 1100 yards, running game and defense held up their end for the most part. Quarterback and passing game was simply pathetic. And not having Romo and Bryant was a huge factor, just not the only one. Injuries only excuse so much.

True. Decision-making made a bad situation worse, not better.

But coaching and play calling didn't help matters either. There was little creativity or adjustment made with regard to the passing game, despite the obvious struggles. Teams and coaches need to be able to adapt to the personnel they do have and I feel that ours failed to do that.

Good debate, though we're clearly not going to agree on the tactics. I agree that we should have done more last season. I'd just have done it by taking more chances on defense (like we did agains the Commanders and the Pats) and on STs.

Though I do agree that we probably needed to break out the occasional trick plays on offense. They tried to do that with Lucky, somewhat. But as limited as we were, it was time for some fake punts and some flea flickers and maybe a statue of liberty here and there.

 

[Stash]

Good debate, though we're clearly not going to agree on the tactics. I agree that we should have done more last season. I'd just have done it by taking more chances on defense (like we did agains the Commanders and the Pats) and on STs.

And I would agree with you there. I'm still scratching my head at how we didn't take more chances based on our success in those games.

Though I do agree that we probably needed to break out the occasional trick plays on offense. They tried to do that with Lucky, somewhat. But as limited as we were, it was time for some fake punts and some flea flickers and maybe a statue of liberty here and there.

I expect to see more of that Jet sweep pla now that Whitehead has grown into his role more, and I believe that Elliott also ran it some at Ohio State as well.

For me, I'd like to see more creativity in the passing game with more route variance and shorter routes, dishing out some pick plays that everyone uses so successfully against us as well. I think we're a bit too 'straight line', down-the-field vanilla.

 

[big dog cowboy]

there's something seriously wrong with this staff.

Yea 2014 was supposed to suck and it just turned out awful didn't it?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

And I've never contended that "everything is wrong" either.

But I disagree that there aren't problems with the coaching staff. When Romo went down, the team didn't just get worse as a result, the coaches couldn't even field a capable offensive unit, that spoke volumes to me.

And now, having to have a 'steak on every plate' for their offense to function only reinforces my belief that the coaches aren't holding up their end in terms of scheme, innovation, flexibility, and creativity.

Injuries certainly played a big role, but it's not the 'get out of jail free' card for me like it is for some other fans (not in reference to you).

I get the impression from you that if we don't replace Garrett we will fail the way you carry on about him. In general, I think you grossly overestimate the importance of what a head coach does and the actual variance in talent in the head coaching community.

 

[Stash]

Yea 2014 was supposed to suck and it just turned out awful didn't it?

1 year out of the last 5, that's something to crow about now is it?

Limbo bar of standards.

 

[Stash]

I get the impression from you that if we don't replace Garrett we will fail the way you carry on about him. In general, I think you grossly overestimate the importance of what a head coach does and the actual variance in talent in the head coaching community.

I think he's shown that. He's squandered Romo and Witten's careers while he tried to learn on the job and clearly showed last season that it's Romo who has carried him to what little success he's had.

And I think you grossly underestimate the importance of a head coach.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I think he's shown that. He's squandered Romo and Witten's careers while he tried to learn on the job and clearly showed last season that it's Romo who has carried him to what little success he's had.

And I think you grossly underestimate the importance of a head coach.

Reductio ad absurdum. Scapegoat. A football program is a much more complicated thing than such characterizations which are more about the sayers emotional disposition as opposed to reality. We're not even in a position to know what he really does even on gamedays. That's why you hear mouthbreathers decrying him clapping his hand as if most coaches don't do that when exhorting players.

Every single sport and the manager/coach/etc gets the blame yet when the coach is replaced the team almost never improves.

 

[Idgit]

Reductio ad absurdum. Scapegoat. A football program is a much more complicated thing than such characterizations which are more about the sayers emotional disposition as opposed to reality. We're not even in a position to know what he really does even on gamedays. That's why you hear mouthbreathers decrying him clapping his hand as if most coaches don't do that when exhorting players.

Every single sport and the manager/coach/etc gets the blame yet when the coach is replaced the team almost never improves.

It's natural, when a team doesn't improve for the dissatisfaction to eventually coalesce around the coach and the QB. In Dallas' case, though, it surprises me because the more likely cause of the problem is pretty obvious. And its been pretty obvious for a long time at this point. I guess it's easier to think we could change the guy wearing the baseball cap and things will get better, but they're probably not going to. What we need is a guy who can be effective in the somewhat chaotic leadership situation we've got in Dallas. And that guy isn't all that easy to find, apparently.

 

[Stash]

Reductio ad absurdum. Scapegoat.

Seriously? He's the head coach, he's gotten everything he's wanted or needed. And then some. Virtually every other component of this team has changed, while the one constant has remained, the Joneses keeping their 'coach in training'. Along with that .500 record.

A football program is a much more complicated thing than such characterizations which are more about the sayers emotional disposition as opposed to reality. We're not even in a position to know what he really does even on gamedays. That's why you hear mouthbreathers decrying him clapping his hand as if most coaches don't do that when exhorting players.

No other person exerts as much influence over a team than its head coach, and therefore nobody is more responsible for the outcome. Any attempt to absolve him is ridiculous.

Every single sport and the manager/coach/etc gets the blame yet when the coach is replaced the team almost never improves.

And? What is this supposed to prove? That coaches should never be replaced? What's the attempted point?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's natural, when a team doesn't improve for the dissatisfaction to eventually coalesce around the coach and the QB. In Dallas' case, though, it surprises me because the more likely cause of the problem is pretty obvious. And its been pretty obvious for a long time at this point. I guess it's easier to think we could change the guy wearing the baseball cap and things will get better, but they're probably not going to. What we need is a guy who can be effective in the somewhat chaotic leadership situation we've got in Dallas. And that guy isn't all that easy to find, apparently.

Oh Jones gets his fair share as well. I just think it an oversimplification to try and distill it down to any one thing particularly with football and its diverse rosters etc. It's a crutch for laziness.

QBs are most certainly the most influential players but there are some famous examples like Dan Marino and Archie Manning that demonstrate the folly in kneejerking that scapegoat. Ultimately, running the ball is not going to make Church, McClain, and Hitchens any more fleet of foot for middle coverage nor is it going ot make Claiborne and Wilcox stop making boneheaded decisions.

Thornton otoh will do more from replacing Velcro for the defense than Zeke.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Seriously? He's the head coach, he's gotten everything he's wanted or needed. And then some. Virtually every other component of this team has changed, while the one constant has remained, the Joneses keeping their 'coach in training'. Along with that .500 record.

No other person exerts as much influence over a team than its head coach, and therefore nobody is more responsible for the outcome. Any attempt to absolve him is ridiculous.

And? What is this supposed to prove? That coaches should never be replaced? What's the attempted point?

More characterizations? Absolve?

I can tell you that he hasn't gotten everything as evidenced by Hardy staying til the end last year and McClain still being on the roster. It's not even a discussion of anything that he actually does or does not do but instead a desperate attempt to pin blame. You seem to think that somebody needs to be blamed. Again this speaks more to your emotional disposition towards the situation than anything else.

If you can Garrett who are you going to replace him with? I was all aboard trading for Peyton because that is an actual plan as opposed to the fire him at all costs soultion. I'm all for improvements. You just want to fire him because youre mad and you want somebody anybody to be held accountable.

 

[Stash]

More characterizations? Absolve?

I can tell you that he hasn't gotten everything as evidenced by Hardy staying til the end last year and McClain still being on the roster. It's not even a discussion of anything that he actually does or does not do but instead a desperate attempt to pin blame. You seem to think that somebody needs to be blamed. Again this speaks more to your emotional disposition towards the situation than anything else.

When you're coming off of a 4-12 season, you're damn right there's plenty of "blame" to go around. For the head coach most of all.

If you can Garrett who are you going to replace him with? I was all aboard trading for Peyton because that is an actual plan as opposed to the fire him at all costs soultion. I'm all for improvements. You just want to fire him because youre mad and you want somebody anybody to be held accountable.

You seem to be projecting something on me that's not there. I'm not screaming 'Fire Garrett', especially at this point. I'm fine with him getting another season and the ability to show 2014 as a fluke due to injury. But, likewise, if he's 8-8 once again, barring significant injuries, I've seen enough and would definitely feel that he's had more than enough of a chance and I'll be looking forward to a change, as will most of the fanbase.

 

[big dog cowboy]

1 year out of the last 5, that's something to crow about now is it?

Limbo bar of standards.

Nice dodge.

 

[jobberone]

Inheriting a SB team then floundering is bad. Inheriting a team that has disintegrated and gradually rebuilding it is different. The former may have a better overall record but the coach flunked. The latter is the narrative you wish to see. Despite a poorer W/L record that coach is doing their job.

Before someone demonizes me as a 'everything going to be ah rite' fan, I've never been a big fan of Garrett and I see both the positives and the negatives. Rebuilding a team esp with Jerry wanted to pull the string on Manziel etc is daunting.

Expecting a team to win with your QB out and poor backups is unrealistic to be nice. The other injuries didn't help but were nowhere as critical as no QB. No QB= No win in the NFL. So putting Garrett on the hot seat is ridiculous at least for 2015.

I agree with @stasheroo that if Tony is relatively healthy this year and has a good year then the team should as well. If not then Garrett has some 'splaining to do'. I temper that with the caveat the defense must perform well enough and we can't be at the bottom of the league in QB pressures/Sack as well as TO Diff.

 

[LittleBoyBlue]

10 pages minimum.

Heh heh... 20?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Good debate, though we're clearly not going to agree on the tactics. I agree that we should have done more last season. I'd just have done it by taking more chances on defense (like we did agains the Commanders and the Pats) and on STs.

Though I do agree that we probably needed to break out the occasional trick plays on offense. They tried to do that with Lucky, somewhat. But as limited as we were, it was time for some fake punts and some flea flickers and maybe a statue of liberty here and there.

The blocking and tackling amongst our ST was too terrible to take chances with. Our weakness on defense was coverage in the middle of the field. Blitzing a lot with that issue is suicide. Until Smith is out on the field and Church and Wilcox off, I'm not overly confident that latter is going to change.