Some new evidence in the Zimmerman case

[Rogah]

Can't you can be charged with Murder and still be convicted of manslaughter?

I'm pretty sure that would have to be included in the original charge. A jury can convict someone of a "lesser charge" if it is included in the original indictment. I believe, in this case, there is no such lesser charge.

If the jury could take a murder charge and reduce it to manslaughter on their own, then the prosecution would always charge people with murder because they'd essentially have nothing to lose. But instead, in this case, a lot of people are calling the prosecution's charge of murder-2 to be a mistake.

NOTE: Of course, the defense can plea bargain down to a lesser charge. And if the judge throws this case out during the pre-trial phase, the prosecutor can come back with a lesser charge. But I believe that if it goes to trial with a charge of murder-2, then that's all the jury can decide. They can't "compromise".

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Come on. That's just a gross mischaracterization and you know it.

From what has been reported, there was no toxicology tests, no seizing of the care, multiple witnesses were ignored for a good amount of time and the head honcho of the department stepped down.

If there's one thing that can be certain, it's that the police didn't do enough initially to avoid criticism.

And there is the problem.

 

[trickblue]

This thread needs to correct itself or it will be closed in short order...

Discuss the case... have a ball...

Trying to change minds is not going to happen...

 

[Manwiththeplan]

Yep. The entire Sanford police department saw a dead black teenager and said "Screw it. Let the Hispanic guy go."

I swear the level of stupidity continues to amaze me.

for starters, not the whole PD, I believe the lead detective wanted to charge but was over ruled. second, I don't think it was so cut and dry but I do believe the police believed that the black kid was up to no good, despite him being unarmed and having absolutely nothing to say he was and decided not to ruin Zimmerman's life by charging him.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The prosecuting attorney, after saying "I didn't know we were going to be trying the case today," is back to ask questions of state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, after O'Mara asked questions challenging the state's assertions.

The prosecutor asked Gilbreath whether there was any evidence indicating that Zimmerman's account that Martin bashed his head against a sidewalk wasn't true. Gilbreath said yes.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/live-blog-attorney-seeks-bond-for-george-zimmerman/

 

[Cajuncowboy]

for starters, not the whole PD, I believe the lead detective wanted to charge but was over ruled. second, I don't think it was so cut and dry but I do believe the police believed that the black kid was up to no good, despite him being unarmed and having absolutely nothing to say he was and decided not to ruin Zimmerman's life by charging him.

Now who would have overruled him? And if you believe it, what basis do you have for believing that? You are just guessing like the rest of us.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/04/20/live-blog-attorney-seeks-bond-for-george-zimmerman/

Nothing quite like cherry picking huh?

From the transcript...
[Updated at 10:47 a.m. ET] O'Mara is back to questioning state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, one of the investigators in the case.

O'Mara asked whether Gilbreath knows who started the fight between Zimmerman and Martin, or had any evidence as to who started the fight. Gilbreath said no.

O'Mara asked whether Gilbreath had any evidence contradicting Zimmerman's statement to Sanford police on the night of the incident that Zimmerman: 1) turned toward his car after losing sight of Martin; and 2) that Martin started the fight that led to the shooting. Gilbreath said no.

 

[TNCowboy]

SIAP:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/20/Dershowitz-prosecution-immoral

The arrest affidavit did not mention the photograph, or the bleeding, gashes, and bruises on Zimmermans’ head. Professor Alan Dershowitz of Harvard Law School stated upon release of the arrest affidavit that it was “so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge … everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense.” ...........


"I've had cases in Florida against prosecutors,” Dershowitz said, “and this is not the first time they have willfully omitted exculpatory evidence. It's a continuing problem. Here, it’s not only immoral, but stupid. The whole country is watching. What do they benefit from having half-truths in an affidavit?"

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Nothing quite like cherry picking huh?

From the transcript...
[Updated at 10:47 a.m. ET] O'Mara is back to questioning state attorney's investigator Dale Gilbreath, one of the investigators in the case.

O'Mara asked whether Gilbreath knows who started the fight between Zimmerman and Martin, or had any evidence as to who started the fight. Gilbreath said no.

O'Mara asked whether Gilbreath had any evidence contradicting Zimmerman's statement to Sanford police on the night of the incident that Zimmerman: 1) turned toward his car after losing sight of Martin; and 2) that Martin started the fight that led to the shooting. Gilbreath said no.

Youre quoting the defense questioning. I am just trying to point out that the lead investigator does not believe all of Zimmerman's story.

I have no horse in this race. I am actually interested to see what the prosecutions case is because between that statement and the wording of the PC affidavit, there is obviously information that the public does not have.

But by all means continue arguing for the defense.

The prosecutor's PC affidavit says that Zimmerman confronted Martin and the lead investigator says they do not believe Zimmerman's account of how he got the head wound. I am curious why they say that.

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[sacase]

I just don't see what the police could learn later to change their mind. I believe police can detain someone for 24 hours without charging them, and they only held him a few, if that. To me it seems like they had no intention of charging him.

Once you arrest someone then their right to a speedy trial kicks in. They don't want to arrest until they have everything they need to get a conviction. Once you charge someone, then you better have your evidence ready to go.

 

[burmafrd]

not sure why people continue to bother with this thread. Each side thinks they are right and will not listen to anything that says other wise.

 

[casmith07]

Once you arrest someone then their right to a speedy trial kicks in. They don't want to arrest until they have everything they need to get a conviction. Once you charge someone, then you better have your evidence ready to go.

No, it's after you're charged.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

Youre quoting the defense questioning. I am just trying to point out that the lead investigator does not believe all of Zimmerman's story.

I have no horse in this race. I am actually interested to see what the prosecutions case is because between that statement and the wording of the PC affidavit, there is obviously information that the public does not have.

But by all means continue arguing for the defense.

The prosecutor's PC affidavit says that Zimmerman confronted Martin and the lead investigator says they do not believe Zimmerman's account of how he got the head wound. I am curious why they say that.

Zimmerman is innocent until proven guilty.

I agree with all of that as well in that I would like to hear his reasoning, but at the same time I think it is important to hear what the defense position is regarding his testimony. And I think to give a clearer picture then both sides need to be highlighted.

As you said, and as has been my contention all along, there is evidence that the public doesn't have that may have led to a delay in the charges being made. And now with the comments from Allan Derscherowitz we can see why they were probably a bit hesitant to do so. The amateur lawyers we have here thinks they should have charged him that night with murder without an investigation into the facts. And you are right, he is innocent until proven guilty, not guilty until proven innocent like some here would like to think.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

No, it's after you're charged.

You can't arrest someone and hold them indefinitely with out charges.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

not sure why people continue to bother with this thread. Each side thinks they are right and will not listen to anything that says other wise.

Well, some of us want to discuss the case from a common sense perspective and some people want an execution right now. That is the difference between the two sides.

 

[03EBZ06]

Well it is what it is. But when he started to approach the car I think that may have given Zimmerman pause that he might be up to something. But again, we don't know. You and I are both doing nothing but guessing.

You don't know that so stop assuming that Martin in fact approached Zimmerman. Martin's girl friend said otherwise and yet you are dismissing her and going with what Zimmerman said.

We don't know who approached who and who initiated physical confrontation.

 

[Cajuncowboy]

You don't know that so stop assuming that Martin in fact approached Zimmerman. Martin's girl friend said otherwise and yet you are dismissing her and going with what Zimmerman said.

We don't know who approached who and who initiated physical confrontation.

Did you listen to the 911 tape? And don't tell me what to do. And the fact is that YOU don't know if Martin did or did not approach the car so STOP ASSUMING HE DIDN'T. Also how the heck would Martin's girlfriend who wasn't even there know anything about anything. So anything she says about what happened is automatically dismissed because she wasn't there. So yes, I am dismissing her.

 

[justbob]

I recently watched the conclusion of a case that occurred in Texas. A18yoa girl was shot and killed in her home. The reporting witness was her 14 yoa brother. After several weeks of getting all their work done and their case straight ,the brother was arrested. The Law enforcement agency knew from the first day who done it. But they took their time. The neighbors were all complaining to the press about law enforcement not doing their job. The comments in the paper read like the comments on this thread...People who's only background was a few classes in law school, watching tv or their on liberal views of the police...The law enforcement was hammered for not finding someone and then hammered for arresting the brother and for not looking for the bad guy......They took their time ,had it right from the beginning and nearly a year later the brother confessed. I have seen this many times from both sides of the fence.
The "witness" accounts are rarely %100 accurate and can be a down right lie. You don't just grab someone up and throw them in jail while you put the case together...Both sides have jobs to lose if they handle a high profile case wrong and Things are often left out of arrest affidavits. more later

 

[justbob]

The was a book written a long time a go called " The Evidence Never Lies".
People do, lawyers do, witnesses do and even judges do and law enforcement does. But the evidence doesn't lie.

I rarely write alot in the fanzone because I love cowboy football, but I am not an expert at it. Quit playing as a high school freshman ,because I had to make a choice between the rodeo team and football.

I don't like getting into these discussions because they are not discussed on fact. Like the book says everyone can lie....Make you opinions on what you actually know and this a short and sweet thread. There many reasons for everything that has been said and done ---and most of it will never be known.

I don't mind telling you my background by pm if you want to know ..

 

[justbob]

One last thing ----One thing we do know is there is a photo of Zimmerman. Alot of details are visible in that phot to a trained investigator. From the void on the top portion of the head , the flow patterns going down the back of his head, the flash burn on the top of the photo and the bruising already visible.