Sort of off topic: about Troy Aikman

[jem88]

He just moved the ball downfield and looked bored doing it.

That is one of the best lines I've ever read on this board. You summed up his brilliance perfectly.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

First it makes me laugh when people make claims about how much time people spend preparing for these games, as if they actually have any clue, at all, what they're talking about. Unless you're following the player around 24/7 you've got exactly zero clue how much time is spent on preparing for the game.


The second thing is that it's way premature to even talk about Tony and Troy in the same discussion. Tony needs to win a few post season games and maybe a Superbowl or two (And by Tony I mean this team, since no one player does it on his own) before discussions about him and Troy can be really had.

 

[jem88]

First of all, please don't insult Aikman by comparing him to Brady. Aikman never cheated!

The difference between Aikman vs. Elway, Montana, Brady, Marino or even Staubach.

Aikman dominated from the first play, so the game was over by halftime. Never needed a dramatic comeback. Watch him in his prime, where most of the games were done by Madden, and every game Madden goes on and on about Aikman completing 8 or 9 of his first 10 passes.
.

I remember that. Madden would always something along the lines of 'he's darn-near perfect...' Couldn't agree more.

 

[joseephuss]

The sad part about it is that people were calling for Aikman's head toward the end of his career, but he really did not have anyone to play catch with. The team was a shell of what it had been.

Aikman was the one that made the offense click. He held everyone to a higher standard, and as ABQCOWBOY mentioned above, Romo just doesn't seem to be the type of person to say "I don't give a crap how big you are, or who you are, you need to get your stuff in gear". Aikman had the respect of the whole team (except maybe "Prime Time"), and he seemed to ooze absolute confidence. Romo does not lack in confidence, but I don't think he will ever be the leader that some want him to be.

Now, some will argue that Romo could not be the head honcho of the huddle so long as T.O. was here. I would tend to agree with them. I think the same thing could be said of Eli Manning. They didn't seem to look to him for leadership (my perception) until Tiki Barber and Jeremy Shockey were either not on the team or at least not in the huddle. However, you could also say that Romo just didn't have the cajones to tell Owens to shut up. Maybe he did, I don't know. I wasn't there, but he doesn't seem to have that in him. I hope he proves me wrong.

Aikman was not the same player at the end of his career. Sure his supporting cast was weaker, but so was he. He took a lot of hard hits over his career and it caught up with him. Leg problems and a bad back just took away from his game. He just was not the same player that set such a high standard.

Troy Aikman's career
Regular season(165)
81.62 QB rating

Wildcard games(3)
52.73 QB rating

Divisional playoff games(6)
93.47 QB rating

NFC Championship games(4)
100.33 QB rating

Superbowls(3)
111.93 QB rating

 

[jay cee]

It is insanity, but get used to it. I swear, I don't think some of the guys who comment in a thread like this know a darn thing about football.

"Aikman didn't look too good when he didn't have good people around him"

I mean, what do you even say to that?

I don't know, maybe you just say it is true. As it would be with any QB, they need a strong supporting cast (coaches as well as teammates), to be at their best.

4. As it has already been noted, there were years when he was throwing to guys named Stepfret.

It seems to me we were making the same point. Aikman was a better qb during the superbowl years when he had a HOF'er at WR and a near HOF'er at TE, than later on when he was saddled with guys like Stepfret. And don't forget the poor coaches during those years.

My question is why would you even see my original statement as an insult?

 

[Aven8]

I watched the, I think, 1993 championship game against the 49ers a few weeks ago. A lot of things stood out to me--Irvin, our passrush, our aggressive coverage, our aggressiveness as a team.

Troy Aikman, however, was just unreal. I can't believe how good he was. Our offensive line sucked in that game, but Troy was quick and worked the pocket brilliantly. when he threw the ball he was SO accurate.

It's really a shame that because his skill largely manifested through Emmitt's stats most people won't give him the credit he deserves, but man was he good.

He really looked exactly like Tom Brady does today, but with a stronger arm.

Anyway, Tony Romo has a long, long, long way to go before he's in Aikman's league.

Stronger arm than Tom Brady?????? You might want to pop in some tape on Brady....he can zing it! He has a much stronger arm than Aikman.

 

[RoadRunner]

agree 100%

he's the most underrated superstar player I think I've ever seen.

Its the anti Cowboys bias. Aikman isn't a great QB because "of the team around him like Irvin and Smith."

Just like Irvin isn't a great WR because "of the team around him like Aikman and Smith."

Just like Emiitt isn't a top 5 all time back because "of the team around him like Aikman and Irvin."

Then, when you point out the absurdity of all this, they then fall back on "it was really the great oline."

And then when you point out that none of the Cowboys lineman has ever even been mentioned for hall of fame status they typically run out of arguments, and cycle back to step 1.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Stronger arm than Tom Brady?????? You might want to pop in some tape on Brady....he can zing it! He has a much stronger arm than Aikman.

:umm: Wat?

 

[RoadRunner]

Aikman was a first ballot HoFer. What should they do? He is already enshrined perhaps they should start a church in his name.

Come on, you know what he meant. No need to be intentionally obtuse.

 

[RoadRunner]

Stronger arm than Tom Brady?????? You might want to pop in some tape on Brady....he can zing it! He has a much stronger arm than Aikman.

I'll have to respectfully disagree as I break out DVDs of early 1990s games featuring Troy.

 

[dbair1967]

Stronger arm than Tom Brady?????? You might want to pop in some tape on Brady....he can zing it! He has a much stronger arm than Aikman.

dude...put the crack pipe away...

There is no comparison between Aikman's arm and Brady's. If Brady's arm was anywhere near what Aikman's was, he'd have never lasted to the 6th rd.

 

[irvin4evs]

Truth. Brady might be more accurate and have better overall awareness than Troy, but Brady is quite lacking in measurables whereas Troy was off the charts in most respects.

That's why one was the 1st overall pick and the other was an afterthought 6th rounder. It didn't have anything to do with how good they were, but it was still a reflection of their raw athletic ability.

 

[bbgun]

Make that two people I miss.

 

[rcaldw]

I don't know, maybe you just say it is true. As it would be with any QB, they need a strong supporting cast (coaches as well as teammates), to be at their best.



It seems to me we were making the same point. Aikman was a better qb during the superbowl years when he had a HOF'er at WR and a near HOF'er at TE, than later on when he was saddled with guys like Stepfret. And don't forget the poor coaches during those years.

My question is why would you even see my original statement as an insult?

I saw it as an insult because that is exactly what most people who make the arguments you make (at least the way they sounded to me) intend it to be. It is just a covert way of saying that Aikman was simply the product of his supporting cast, which is nonsense.

Michael Irvin tells anyone who will listen that Aikman made HIM great. I happen to believe that they both made each other great, but don't dismiss Irvin's point. Michael Irvin and Emmitt Smith benefited from Troy Aikman. There are many Emmitt Smith fans who won't acknowledge that point at all.

And no, I didn't think we were making the same point. There is a difference between saying that you have to have HOF people around a guy for him to perform great, and saying that he had Stepfret Williams as a starting WR at one time. It is going from an A rated cast to an F rated supporting cast.

I'm saying Aikman was great in his own right. I'm saying one of the greatest players to ever play the game. Do you agree? If I've misread you, then I apologize. I just get weary of people trying to pass off Aikman as an average QB who happened to just luck out with the team that surrounded him. It is to those people that I say "you don't know a lick about football no matter what you think you know."

 

[Aven8]

dude...put the crack pipe away...

There is no comparison between Aikman's arm and Brady's. If Brady's arm was anywhere near what Aikman's was, he'd have never lasted to the 6th rd.

As soon as you take the needle out of your arm, I'll put my pipe down...

Brady has a lot stonger arm then Troy...there is nothing wrong with that. Aikman always underthrew the deep ball....Brady can throw it like 70-80yds.

There is nobody that threw the out pattern better than Troy though...nobody.

 

[Aikmaniac]

I agree with rcaldw...

It was feast or famine with Troy in regards to supporting casts. What he had was outright junk during the twilight of his career. In addition to the Stepfret's and Billy Davis' I mentioned earlier, don't forget these clowns:

-Eric Bjornson
-Nicky Sualua
-Wane McGarrity
-James McKnight

You guys already knew this, but to read those names again just makes me sick in regards to the seasons of Troy's career that were totally wasted.

I'm just wondering if some of you were the ones that were booing Aikman while he was throwing to these jabroni's.

 

[rcaldw]

As soon as you take the needle out of your arm, I'll put my pipe down...

Brady has a lot stonger arm then Troy...there is nothing wrong with that. Aikman always underthrew the deep ball....Brady can throw it like 70-80yds.

There is nobody that threw the out pattern better than Troy though...nobody.

First off, the idea that Aikman always under threw the deep pass is just not correct. If you watch all the old games you will see plenty of deep balls that were on the money. Just a couple to jog the memory. One was to Alvin Harper, against the Packers at Texas Stadium, a playoff game, the play went for 98 yards. Hit Harper in the center of the field on a deep post, a perfect strike. Another was 1997 (I think), Rocket Ismail, overtime against the Skins, game over. There were plenty more, just mentioning a couple.

Second, even though Aikman under threw the deep ball sometimes, even if he did it more than others, that isn't necessarily an indication of arm strength. When you throw a deep ball it is a timing pass too. You don't just chunk it as far as you can. You anticipate where you think the receiver will be and you try to have the ball arrive there. I happen to think that sometimes Aikman wanted to be sure that he completed it so he would err on the side of under throwing a guy instead of overthrowing a guy.

The deep out, on the other hand, IS a matter of arm strength. Not everyone could throw the deep timing passes that Aikman could throw, precisely because they didn't have the arm strength to do it. If Aikman's arm lost a little strength along the way it would have been because of his back problems, not because he didn't have a rocket arm. Which, in fact, he did.

One other thing I would add. I think about the 1995 NFC Championship game in Texas Stadium where the Cowboys first TD was an Aikman to Irvin pass in the right front corner of the end zone. Irvin was double teamed and Aikman threw what looked like a 100 mph fast ball to get it in there. Troy only did that WHEN HE NEEDED TO DO THAT. He thew passes that were catchable. He had touch.

Sometimes a guy is thought to have a huge arm because he only throws fastballs. (I think about Favre). He may also, as a result, not always throw the most catchable pass.

 

[ryanbabs]

agree 100%

he's the most underrated superstar player I think I've ever seen.

I get tired of pretty much the whole team of the 90's being underappreciated...Troy had Emmitt, Emmitt had a great OL, yada, yada, yada...

The whole team comprised of great players, excellent chemistry, good coaching, and they were...great.

 

[jay cee]

I saw it as an insult because that is exactly what most people who make the arguments you make (at least the way they sounded to me) intend it to be. It is just a covert way of saying that Aikman was simply the product of his supporting cast, which is nonsense."

All players are products of their supporting cast, as well as their coaches. It's a team game.

For example, Herschel Walker would probably be in the HOF if Minnesota would have run him out of the I formation, instead of the split backfield. Walker was more of a downhill runner. He did not have the lateral moves that it takes to be effective out of that formation consistently. He did not become a terrible player after leaving Dallas, he just was not a good fit for that scheme.

And no, I didn't think we were making the same point. There is a difference between saying that you have to have HOF people around a guy for him to perform great, and saying that he had Stepfret Williams as a starting WR at one time. It is going from an A rated cast to an F rated supporting cast.

Where did I say he had to have HOF people around him? My point was that his performance suffered, like any QB would, when he did not have good people around him.

Again, I say we are making the same point.

I'm saying Aikman was great in his own right. I'm saying one of the greatest players to ever play the game. Do you agree? If I've misread you, then I apologize. I just get weary of people trying to pass off Aikman as an average QB who happened to just luck out with the team that surrounded him. It is to those people that I say "you don't know a lick about football no matter what you think you know."

Aikman was great, but Staubach was the greatest Cowboys qb imo. I still have hope that Romo may be able to place himself in the conversation by the time his career ends.
To do so, he is going to need help from his coaches and teammates like Staubach and Aikman had.

Here is my original statement. You took that one line at the end of the post and just forgot about the rest.

But I hope that clears up what I think of Aikman.

 

[jay cee]

Second, even though Aikman under threw the deep ball sometimes, even if he did it more than others, that isn't necessarily an indication of arm strength. When you throw a deep ball it is a timing pass too. You don't just chunk it as far as you can. You anticipate where you think the receiver will be and you try to have the ball arrive there. I happen to think that sometimes Aikman wanted to be sure that he completed it so he would err on the side of under throwing a guy instead of overthrowing a guy.

The deep out, on the other hand, IS a matter of arm strength. Not everyone could throw the deep timing passes that Aikman could throw, precisely because they didn't have the arm strength to do it.

I was going to make the exact same argument. But I would not have explained it nearly as well.