Sprinkle me...

[Cowboy Junkie]

Huh? How is a 2004 3rd round pick going to be a free agent? Regardless of contract, the Chargers own his rights for 2 more years.

The only way he's free is if he's cut. and that's not going to happen

The Titans Center...

 

[AbeBeta]

Like I said. He would have to adjust on some technical things, but he has done it before. When you practice something for the length of time that he did and actually played with those same principles, its not foreign. He has the athletic ability to do it and the fact that he has done it before should make for a quick adjustment. You started this debate with money issues and now it has turned to LB play. I don't think you actually know what your debating right now.

Yes, I don't know what I'm talking about. You change the topic, argue different points, then say I'm wrong because I'm debating those issues.

I stated it before and I'll state it again -- too much money for a guy who is unproven in this system. Can he learn it? Maybe. Is it a high risk signing? Yes, anytime you give a guy a ton of cash and ask him to change position it is very risky. And we can't afford another FA bust.

I'll gladly say I'm wrong if he comes here and performs. But I doubt he's coming at all. or that he'll get serious consideration from BP. Of course, I expect you to do the same when he doesn't come or if he does come and doesn't perform.

 

[BigDFan5]

Huh? How is a 2004 3rd round pick going to be a free agent? Regardless of contract, the Chargers own his rights for 2 more years.

The only way he's free is if he's cut. and that's not going to happen

Justin Hartwig is with the Titans and is a free agent after this season

 

[BigDFan5]

nevermind

 

[50cent]

Yes, I don't know what I'm talking about. You change the topic, argue different points, then say I'm wrong because I'm debating those issues.

I stated it before and I'll state it again -- too much money for a guy who is unproven in this system. Can he learn it? Maybe. Is it a high risk signing? Yes, anytime you give a guy a ton of cash and ask him to change position it is very risky. And we can't afford another FA bust.

I'll gladly say I'm wrong if he comes here and performs. But I doubt he's coming at all. or that he'll get serious consideration from BP. Of course, I expect you to do the same when he doesn't come or if he does come and doesn't perform.

First it was a money issue in big signing. Shot down by me and Dale.
Next, it was about players past their prime. Shot down again 27/28 years old
Then it was not being a BP guy or playing in the scheme. Shot down again.
Lastly it was the transition to playing OLB. Too many shots, your dead!

This is you trying to think of some other reason not 2 bring in Abraham. :bang2:

 

[2much2soon]

Abraham certainly has the speed to be effective as a coverage LB.
I have mentioned it before, but watching him run down Vick earlier
this season was impressive.

 

[junk]

Ah, you need 2 OLBs in the 3-4! Makes sense to me.

The logic is that Ware and Abraham would both basically play the same position, I think. The weakside pass rushing OLB position in the 3-4. The strong side guy needs to be a guy who is stout against the run. I don't know that Abraham is really that type of guy.

 

[AsthmaField]

The logic is that Ware and Abraham would both basically play the same position, I think. The weakside pass rushing OLB position in the 3-4. The strong side guy needs to be a guy who is stout against the run. I don't know that Abraham is really that type of guy.

Abraham has the build to be stout against the run... but I don't know if he has the heart for it.

I love Abraham's athleticism and can imagine him and Ware coming off the edges with Canty, Spears and Glover pushing up the middle... But Abraham the player scares me. He seems like the type that could hit a wall rather quickly and I'm not too sure about the guys passion for the game.

Bottom line is that I don't know enough about him to really say if I'd sign him or not.

 

[50cent]

The logic is that Ware and Abraham would both basically play the same position, I think. The weakside pass rushing OLB position in the 3-4. The strong side guy needs to be a guy who is stout against the run. I don't know that Abraham is really that type of guy.

So why wouldn't Ware be better suited for that then.

 

[junk]

So why wouldn't Ware be better suited for that then.

Well, he has been getting owned on the weakside, so I don't know if a move to the strong side would be an ideal move.

The thing is, both guys are elite pass rushers. You probably don't want to spend the money paying an elite pass rusher to muck it up in the trenches with a TE.

My thought is that you want your elite pass rusher on the weak side and a guy who is stout against the run and the pass on the strong side. If he has some pass rush skills, its a bonus.

I could be way off, just my opinion.

 

[aikemirv]

I think we will be very careful on what we do in FA this coming year.

Correct me if I am wrong but we have Witten and RW to sign, and they will command huge contracts and will have a cap effect of siging Fa's.

Thus, unless we free up a lot of spaceI can't see us spending dollars on another defensive player. Not only that but the following year we will have to sign Newman which will be a huge number.

If we spend money it needs to be on the Oline, not the defense because that is our biggest weakness. Allen would be the biggest cap savings but we cannot replce him do I don't think we will be able to free up space with him.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Belichick brought in Rosie Colvin to line up opposite Willie McGinnest. Who is the primary run stuffer with the secondary pass rushing skills in that duo?

 

[50cent]

Well, he has been getting owned on the weakside, so I don't know if a move to the strong side would be an ideal move.

The thing is, both guys are elite pass rushers. You probably don't want to spend the money paying an elite pass rusher to muck it up in the trenches with a TE.

My thought is that you want your elite pass rusher on the weak side and a guy who is stout against the run and the pass on the strong side. If he has some pass rush skills, its a bonus.

I could be way off, just my opinion.

I didn't know Ware was getting owned on his side. Thought he was actually doing a good job in the run game vs the OT. If you go by the KC game, it would seem that way. Although, what DE has been owned by Willie roaf and crew? If you give me a choice as of right now as to who is the best pass rusher, Id go with Abe.

 

[AbeBeta]

First it was a money issue in big signing. Shot down by me and Dale.

Shot down? No, you said it wan't an issue. Dale said he didn't think it consituted "buying a team." You said "signing players that produce" doesn't hurt teams. Neither gets around the fact that we can't afford the top FA in the league for every hole. Your arguments don't shoot down anything. In fact, Dale later indicated he thought Abraham might be a strech given the money needed to sign a pass rusher.

You are confusing disagreeing with what I said with fact and arguing a completely different point, while also ignoring comments that don't fit your argument.

Next, it was about players past their prime. Shot down again 27/28 years old

Age is really not relevant here. It's mileage. The average NFL career is less 3.5 years. Nor is their any data, aside from anecdotal evidence to suggest that players hit their prime at 27-28. Just because someone says "prime" that's not necessarilly true. I respect Dale's opinion but there is no evidence for a certain age being an NFL prime.

Saying that a 28 year old has "plenty of gas left in the tank" is a speculative statement. What we do know however is that the longer you are in the league, the closer you are to being done.

Then it was not being a BP guy or playing in the scheme. Shot down again.

You did nothing to demonstrate that Abraham was a BP guy. In fact, your argument hinged initially on him playing for BP in 2000, a year after he stepped down. Abraham did play in the 3-4, for 6 games in his rookie year. I think it is a stretch to expect that what he learned in 2000 is going to immediately translate to success in a 3-4 five years later.

As far as being a BP guy, I stand by the statement that he doesn't strike me as being a BP-type player. I wonder how BP would have dealt with his holdout, or sitting out the last 4 regular season games and the last 2 playoff games last year with a dubious injury.

Lastly it was the transition to playing OLB. Too many shots, your dead!

And your point here was something like "other players have made the transition" -- How is that an actual argument? In fact, several posters have taken up that argument in the pages that followed your weak statements.

Now let me be clear here 50 -- I'm happy to argue with you. But you, son, are going to have to present some facts. Just loudly proclaiming that someone is wrong isn't an actual argument - nor does it support your claims. If you want to "shoot down" an argument you better come with some stronger support than "he said" or "you're wrong".

 

[InmanRoshi]

No one is promoting blindly throwing big money to fill every hole. As Parcells says, you can't just go into the Texaco station and pick up one starting offensive tackle, one ball hawking FS, 1 center and 1 OLB in free agency. You have to take advantage of what's available on the market gives you.

In Abraham's case we're talking about an opportunity a luxory afforded to us by wisely budgeted cap money towards filling a big hole on the defense on a wildly talented, legitimate impact player in the prime of his career (and its rare that legitimate impact players at 28 years old hit the market untagged), who fills a need, has history with the HC and the defensive scheme. I highly doubt we'll be nearly as lucky at other need positions. This really isn't rocket science, and I really can't fathom how people could be so staunchly against it.

 

[Hiero]

his prime was 2-3 years ago. we dont sign him just as he is about to hit his downfall. plus he wants the big payday aint happening.

 

[InmanRoshi]

his prime was 2-3 years ago. we dont sign him just as he is about to hit his downfall. plus he wants the big payday aint happening.

Abraham is 27. If the prime for a player is 23-24, its pretty scary that Demarcus Ware is in his prime right now and its all downhill from here. The NFL should have let Maurice Clarett and other 19 years old into the league, given that a player is washed up by the time he's 27.

 

[AbeBeta]

Abraham is 27. If the prime for a player is 23-24, its pretty scary that Demarcus Ware is in his prime right now and its all downhill from here.

There is no "prime" age for players. When people talk about "primes" they are just guessing. Whatever number you choose will never apply to all players -- it likely won't even apply to half of the league's players. That's like saying that the average life expectancy for men is 72 -- so every man on the board will be dead at 72. We have no way of knowing when Abraham's prime is, will be, or was.

Dude could sign and be a Strahan type guy who produces well into his 30's. Or he could be Marcellus Wiley.

 

[50cent]

Shot down? No, you said it wan't an issue. Dale said he didn't think it consituted "buying a team." You said "signing players that produce" doesn't hurt teams. Neither gets around the fact that we can't afford the top FA in the league for every hole. Your arguments don't shoot down anything. In fact, Dale later indicated he thought Abraham might be a strech given the money needed to sign a pass rusher.
You mix your words to make yourself sound good. It doesn't constitute buying a team or breaking the bank in FA. Who mentioned signing the top FA at every positon? Wasn't me. Any Fa being brought up right now is nothing but specualtion. I nor you have insider info that would tell whether or not this will come true. It is simply a wish list that is very capable of happening.

You are confusing disagreeing with what I said with fact and arguing a completely different point, while also ignoring comments that don't fit your argument. ?



Age is really not relevant here. It's mileage. The average NFL career is less 3.5 years. Nor is their any data, aside from anecdotal evidence to suggest that players hit their prime at 27-28. Just because someone says "prime" that's not necessarilly true. I respect Dale's opinion but there is no evidence for a certain age being an NFL prime. So tell how you magically have calculted mileage for Abraham, Bentley, and Davis? Can you somehow unlike other predict when a player has run empty of producing on the field? Each of these players have met you quota of playing longevity. So throw your 3.5 out of the window as for these players. Come back in their 9-10 year if they are fortunate enough to get there.

Saying that a 28 year old has "plenty of gas left in the tank" is a speculative statement. What we do know however is that the longer you are in the league, the closer you are to being done. Saying that a 28 year doesn't have anything left in the tank when talking about these players is down right stupid. I hope your not making that statement, cause I think my thoery holds more water on these players than yours.




You did nothing to demonstrate that Abraham was a BP guy. In fact, your argument hinged initially on him playing for BP in 2000, a year after he stepped down. Abraham did play in the 3-4, for 6 games in his rookie year. I think it is a stretch to expect that what he learned in 2000 is going to immediately translate to success in a 3-4 five years later. No he didn't play for BP, although BP did draft him as director of football oerations for the Jets that year. Don't think 2, 3-4 guys had nothing to do with getting not only Abe, but also Ellis to fit the 3-4 they ran that year. Come on, BP would have nothing to do with this draft, would he? Get real. He even stated that upon his retirement that he was dedicated to the organization that he would bring a championship to NY. I think Abe was part of his plan, right behind the Ellis pick and just beore the Pennington pick.

As far as being a BP guy, I stand by the statement that he doesn't strike me as being a BP-type player. I wonder how BP would have dealt with his holdout, or sitting out the last 4 regular season games and the last 2 playoff games last year with a dubious injury. Well BP didn't have to deal with his hold out, but I'm pretty sure you had the same questions to how BP would handle Key after his situation with Gruden. Or how about Glenns with the PAts? I'm pretty sure BP would find a way to handle the situation, like he has in others.



And your point here was something like "other players have made the transition" -- How is that an actual argument? In fact, several posters have taken up that argument in the pages that followed your weak statements. Well, I guess guys like Ware, Singleton, and Fujita don't count in this transition talk since they don't play the OLB position. So your right again. Players can't make that transition like a Colvin going to NE after playing in the 4-3 Bears system.

Now let me be clear here 50 -- I'm happy to argue with you. But you, son, are going to have to present some facts. Just loudly proclaiming that someone is wrong isn't an actual argument - nor does it support your claims. If you want to "shoot down" an argument you better come with some stronger support than "he said" or "you're wrong".

Now who ever you are-- I'm even happier to debate with you, but to claim buying a team doesn't win championship doesn't make you right either. You should listen to your own advice and provide facts and not your opinions. Cause unlike me, I have provided plenty of fact for your viewing pleasure if you take time to comprehend. So, now you should come back when can prove your theories of 28 year olds being over the hill. Or Abe isn't a BP guy when BP drafted him. Or I'm asking to sign every top FA, TOP being the key word. Or how about just show me how playing 6 games isn't experience. Or how bout, the tons of FAs we just splurged on. I count 3. You have given nothing but opinion. Try facts now sir.

Thank you sir, it was nice while it lasted. Shot down again.

 

[50cent]

No one is promoting blindly throwing big money to fill every hole. As Parcells says, you can't just go into the Texaco station and pick up one starting offensive tackle, one ball hawking FS, 1 center and 1 OLB in free agency. You have to take advantage of what's available on the market gives you.

In Abraham's case we're talking about an opportunity a luxory afforded to us by wisely budgeted cap money towards filling a big hole on the defense on a wildly talented, legitimate impact player in the prime of his career (and its rare that legitimate impact players at 28 years old hit the market untagged), who fills a need, has history with the HC and the defensive scheme. I highly doubt we'll be nearly as lucky at other need positions. This really isn't rocket science, and I really can't fathom how people could be so staunchly against it.

Yeah, what he said, ABie!