Sprinkle me...

[50cent]

There is no "prime" age for players. When people talk about "primes" they are just guessing. Whatever number you choose will never apply to all players -- it likely won't even apply to half of the league's players. That's like saying that the average life expectancy for men is 72 -- so every man on the board will be dead at 72. We have no way of knowing when Abraham's prime is, will be, or was.

Dude could sign and be a Strahan type guy who produces well into his 30's. Or he could be Marcellus Wiley.

This may have been the weakest thing you have posted. Everything about football is a crap shoot. There is absolutly nothing that is a given. Whether it is the draft, FA, anything. What is your point by stating this? You whole debate is based on the simple fact that nobody can predict the future? AH, neither do you, so to come here and just say we are wrong, is assinine. You can't be right or wrong that way, so why even post on the topic. Go away! P.S. To say a 27 year old isn't in his prime just because you don't know, is really lame.

 

[junk]

Belichick brought in Rosie Colvin to line up opposite Willie McGinnest. Who is the primary run stuffer with the secondary pass rushing skills in that duo?

Thats not really comparing apples to apples and you are ignoring what I said.

Colvin has been a linebacker his entire career as far as I could see. He is going to have developed the skills to take on blockers and play the run. His pass rush skill is a bonus.

Abraham is a DE attempting to make the conversion to OLB (granted, he did a bit of it one season).

Do you want to pay him a $16 million SB to shed the TE in the run game and cover him in the pass game? It'll probably take at least that. Wistrom, who IMO is an inferior pass rusher got in that neighborhood a couple of years ago.

I don't think people are staunchly opposed to it (well, maybe some are), but more than likely most just feel it might be too much money to spend at that position and would be a waste of Ware or Abraham's pass rush skills.

 

[junk]

I didn't know Ware was getting owned on his side. Thought he was actually doing a good job in the run game vs the OT. If you go by the KC game, it would seem that way. Although, what DE has been owned by Willie roaf and crew? If you give me a choice as of right now as to who is the best pass rusher, Id go with Abe.

I guess the KC game being fresh in my mind is what I was referring to. He has been OK most of the year, I'll agree.

But even BP said he didn't know what he was doing out there. Would a position change be in his best interest?

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to it if the contract was reasonable. I just don't see it as a very likely scenario.

 

[50cent]

I guess the KC game being fresh in my mind is what I was referring to. He has been OK most of the year, I'll agree.

But even BP said he didn't know what he was doing out there. Would a position change be in his best interest?

Having said that, I wouldn't be opposed to it if the contract was reasonable. I just don't see it as a very likely scenario.

Im not a expert on the 3-4, but I don't think it is really a position change. Just a switch of sides and since he has played on the left side this year as well, I don't see it as that much of a problem.

 

[50cent]

Thats not really comparing apples to apples and you are ignoring what I said.

Colvin has been a linebacker his entire career as far as I could see. He is going to have developed the skills to take on blockers and play the run. His pass rush skill is a bonus.

Abraham is a DE attempting to make the conversion to OLB (granted, he did a bit of it one season).

Do you want to pay him a $16 million SB to shed the TE in the run game and cover him in the pass game? It'll probably take at least that. Wistrom, who IMO is an inferior pass rusher got in that neighborhood a couple of years ago.

I don't think people are staunchly opposed to it (well, maybe some are), but more than likely most just feel it might be too much money to spend at that position and would be a waste of Ware or Abraham's pass rush skills.

This is where I differ on the Abe opinions. He was drafted to play OLB and thats what he did his rookie season. The fact that he can also chae down a player of Michael Vicks caliber, makes me think he can do a decent job covering TEs.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

with a little
John Abraham in FA

Too expensive considering they have bigger needs at O-Line, FB, and free safety. Plus, Fujita has just played well in 2 games in a row, Kalen Thornton comes back, and I'm assuming that Kevin Burnett will be better. If Fujita keeps playing like he recently has, I'm more concerned about the ILB spot than the LOLB spot. Oh yeah, Ware should be better too which would hopefully make the LOLB's job easier.

LeCharles Bentley in FA

I'd be all for it, but something tells me that Parcells goes after a serviceable FA. While Parcells isn't afraid to give up on a player, he's still like a most coaches who stick by guys they drafted. But, I'd love Bentley since he's the big center that can play guard. He might get franchised as well.

Andra Davis in FA

ILB is an important spot, but according to a bunch of Browns fans I know, he's struggled in the 3-4.

Marcus McNeil in the draft

Definitely a possibility, but the if Flozell comes back and plays like was before the injury I've got to imagine that Parcells feels reasonably comfortable at RT with Tucker, Pettiti (who should be better) and Columbo. My guess is that they'll go after another serviceable free agent at RT to help provide some competition and as an insurance policy.

and a FS in FA or draft

Definitely. I'd prefer to get a free agent since the safety position is the type that if you are easily fooled and don't know assignments, it can kill the defense. But, they need to find somebody with good cover skills and if they can find somebody with good hands, that would really help the defense.

Rich.......

 

[AbeBeta]

This may have been the weakest thing you have posted. Everything about football is a crap shoot. There is absolutly nothing that is a given. Whether it is the draft, FA, anything. What is your point by stating this? You whole debate is based on the simple fact that nobody can predict the future? AH, neither do you, so to come here and just say we are wrong, is assinine. You can't be right or wrong that way, so why even post on the topic. Go away! P.S. To say a 27 year old isn't in his prime just because you don't know, is really lame.

No I didn't say he wasn't in his prime. I said you can't argue that a player IS in his prime at a certain age. I was arguing the entire notion of the "prime." My apologies if the notions of averages and variance inherent in such an argument were too difficult for you to handle.

I'll try to make it simpler for you in the future.

And again, just saying "that's weak" isn't an argument. It is just BS posturing.

 

[InmanRoshi]

Thats not really comparing apples to apples and you are ignoring what I said.

Colvin has been a linebacker his entire career as far as I could see. He is going to have developed the skills to take on blockers and play the run. His pass rush skill is a bonus.

Abraham is a DE attempting to make the conversion to OLB (granted, he did a bit of it one season).

Do you want to pay him a $16 million SB to shed the TE in the run game and cover him in the pass game? It'll probably take at least that. Wistrom, who IMO is an inferior pass rusher got in that neighborhood a couple of years ago.

I don't think people are staunchly opposed to it (well, maybe some are), but more than likely most just feel it might be too much money to spend at that position and would be a waste of Ware or Abraham's pass rush skills.

Colvin was a mediocre all around LB who played with his hand on the ground in nickel situations and amassed double digit sack numbers as a pass rusher in back to back years ... which is why he got the big money contract. He was a pass rusher first and foremost, and anything else he brought to the table was secondary. He played defensive line his entire career in college. He plays in a 3 man rotation with McGinnest and Vrabel for both outside positions.

Abraham was an outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense at South Carolina. He ran a 4.41-4.45 leading up to the draft. He was drafted by Parcells to play in the 3-4. He played in the 3-4 his first year under Al Groh. Its only when Herm Edwards came in that he became solely a hand on the ground DE.

Terrell Suggs played LOLB his rookie year with the Ravens (they already had Boulware pass rushing ROLB). I guess the Ravens put him there immediately as a rookie because of his phenomenal pass coverage skills at Arizona State. I think he was brought in as a pass rusher.

 

[50cent]

No I didn't say he wasn't in his prime. I said you can't argue that a player IS in his prime at a certain age. I was arguing the entire notion of the "prime." My apologies if the notions of averages and variance inherent in such an argument were too difficult for you to handle.

I'll try to make it simpler for you in the future.

And again, just saying "that's weak" isn't an argument. It is just BS posturing.

Thats the whole point, you aren't saying anything by stating you can't tell. No one can tell unless they are CLeo. Basically your saying, he could be, but he couldn't be either. Just like me saying, The Cowboys could win this week, but they could lose when I give a PREDICTION. Why give a prediction when your playing both sides of the fence. Its useless. I can't tell if your a man or a women over the internet, but I'm pretty sure by saying you could be a man, but you might be a woman would pretty much make me right. As I said before, what are you debating? You don't know for sure, do you? Everything you have said has been on the basis of "NOBODY KNOWS". Really?

 

[50cent]

Colvin was a mediocre all around LB who played with his hand on the ground in nickel situations and amassed double digit sack numbers as a pass rusher ... which is why he got the big money contract. He was a pass rusher first and foremost, and anything else he brought to the table was secondary. He played defensive line his entire career in college. He plays in a 3 man rotation with McGinnest and Vrabel for both outside positions.

Abraham was an outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense at South Carolina. He ran a 4.41-4.45 leading up to the draft. He was drafted by Parcells to play in the 3-4. He played in the 3-4 his first year under Al Groh. Its only when Herm Edwards came in that he became solely a hand on the ground DE.

Terrell Suggs played LOLB his rookie year with the Ravens (they already had Boulware pass rushing ROLB). I guess the Ravens put him there immediately as a rookie because of his phenomenal pass coverage skills at Arizona State. I think he was brought in as a pass rusher.

Please read ABie!

 

[AbeBeta]

Now who ever you are-- I'm even happier to debate with you, but to claim buying a team doesn't win championship doesn't make you right either. You should listen to your own advice and provide facts and not your opinions. Cause unlike me, I have provided plenty of fact for your viewing pleasure if you take time to comprehend. So, now you should come back when can prove your theories of 28 year olds being over the hill. Or Abe isn't a BP guy when BP drafted him. Or I'm asking to sign every top FA, TOP being the key word. Or how about just show me how playing 6 games isn't experience. Or how bout, the tons of FAs we just splurged on. I count 3. You have given nothing but opinion. Try facts now sir.

Thank you sir, it was nice while it lasted. Shot down again.

Yes, facts like "Abraham has played in the 3-4 under BP" and statements like "Im not a expert on the 3-4" really support your arguments.

I said I didn't think Abe was a BP guy. He never played under BP and he has caused some problems in NY with his DUI arrest and hold out. That isn't consistent with a BP-type player to me.

You suggest that simply because BP drafted a player that means he's a BP guy. By your logic that means that Jacob Rogers must also be a BP guy then.

I didn't say a 28 year old was over the hill. I disputed the notion of players having a "prime" age and disputed whether continued investment in older players (instead of rookies) was the best way to build a winner.

Nor did I say playing 6 games was not experience. But it isn't the entire season of experience you suggested it to be.

Again, 50, your poor reading comprehension is creating this argument.

 

[DBoys]

No one is promoting blindly throwing big money to fill every hole. As Parcells says, you can't just go into the Texaco station and pick up one starting offensive tackle, one ball hawking FS, 1 center and 1 OLB in free agency. You have to take advantage of what's available on the market gives you.

In Abraham's case we're talking about an opportunity a luxory afforded to us by wisely budgeted cap money towards filling a big hole on the defense on a wildly talented, legitimate impact player in the prime of his career (and its rare that legitimate impact players at 28 years old hit the market untagged), who fills a need, has history with the HC and the defensive scheme. I highly doubt we'll be nearly as lucky at other need positions. This really isn't rocket science, and I really can't fathom how people could be so staunchly against it.

Tell them how it is!!!

 

[AbeBeta]

Thats the whole point, you aren't saying anything by stating you can't tell. No one can tell unless they are CLeo. Basically your saying, he could be, but he couldn't be either. Just like me saying, The Cowboys could win this week, but they could lose when I give a PREDICTION. Why give a prediction when your playing both sides of the fence. Its useless. I can't tell if your a man or a women over the internet, but I'm pretty sure by saying you could be a man, but you might be a woman would pretty much make me right. As I said before, what are you debating? You don't know for sure, do you? Everything you have said has been on the basis of "NOBODY KNOWS". Really?

Actually I am. I'm saying that arguing that a player is at their prime at a certain age -- and using that argument to justify a signing is not a useful approach because there are so many other factors that play into whether a player is at their "prime" or not.

However, there is one thing that we do know, the older the player, the more likely they are to be on the downside of their careers. That much is clear and that much everybody knows.

 

[50cent]

Yes, facts like "Abraham has played in the 3-4 under BP" and statements like "Im not a expert on the 3-4" really support your arguments.

I said I didn't think Abe was a BP guy. He never played under BP and he has caused some problems in NY with his DUI arrest and hold out. That isn't consistent with a BP-type player to me.

You suggest that simply because BP drafted a player that means he's a BP guy. By your logic that means that Jacob Rogers must also be a BP guy then.

I didn't say a 28 year old was over the hill. I disputed the notion of players having a "prime" age and disputed whether continued investment in older players (instead of rookies) was the best way to build a winner.

Nor did I say playing 6 games was not experience. But it isn't the entire season of experience you suggested it to be.

Again, 50, your poor reading comprehension is creating this argument.

Well the fact that you bring up a statement that has nothing to do with our debate shows me you really will say anything to sound good.

Do you think that BP would have drafted him if he didn't impress him in some way? Oh yeah, Rogers was BPs guy. Up until the fact that he turned out to be soft.

You still have yet to show me one team that has built its entire success on the draft without signing any FA.

And you did suggest that 6 games wasn't enough experience for Abraham to play the 3-4 again.

Fact is, BP has first hand knowledge of the player.
Fact is, we have enough cap money to get him.
Fact is, Abraham did play the 3-4 under BP coached by Grohl(A BP guy)
Fact is, he had success in that same 3-4.
Fact is, 28 is the prime for him. Check out last weeks stats on him
Fact is, this team will still be lead by our draftees like Witten, Ware, Roy, TNew, James, Burnett, Canty, Spears, Crayton, LA, and Flo. Are those enough facts for you?

 

[50cent]

Actually I am. I'm saying that arguing that a player is at their prime at a certain age -- and using that argument to justify a signing is not a useful approach because there are so many other factors that play into whether a player is at their "prime" or not.

However, there is one thing that we do know, the older the player, the more likely they are to be on the downside of their careers. That much is clear and that much everybody knows.

You still miss the point. You brought up that point about age. Ive stated that its based on age and production when I mentioned the Commanders signings. I don't think anyone in their right mind would just sign someone based solely on their age. Unless you are washington. Hell, if that were the case then the both of should have been signed at the age 28 or whenever our primed age hit us. Don't try and turn words to make you look good. Its not working. When you look at abrahams stats and take in the fact that he is still young. Not to mention his grasp of the game is high. It would consist of being in your prime.

 

[junk]

Colvin was a mediocre all around LB who played with his hand on the ground in nickel situations and amassed double digit sack numbers as a pass rusher in back to back years ... which is why he got the big money contract. He was a pass rusher first and foremost, and anything else he brought to the table was secondary. He played defensive line his entire career in college. He plays in a 3 man rotation with McGinnest and Vrabel for both outside positions.

Abraham was an outside linebacker in a 4-3 defense at South Carolina. He ran a 4.41-4.45 leading up to the draft. He was drafted by Parcells to play in the 3-4. He played in the 3-4 his first year under Al Groh. Its only when Herm Edwards came in that he became solely a hand on the ground DE.

Terrell Suggs played LOLB his rookie year with the Ravens (they already had Boulware pass rushing ROLB). I guess the Ravens put him there immediately as a rookie because of his phenomenal pass coverage skills at Arizona State. I think he was brought in as a pass rusher.

Abraham was an OLB for 1 year at SC. He was a DE prior to that. He was an OLB in a 3-4 for part of a season. Did he play the strong or weak side? He was a weak side end.

Colvin played as a OLB for a couple of years in the NFL. I think he might have acquired a few of the nuances of doing things other than rushing the passer. How does the rotation work in NE anyway? Do they each play strong and weak side?

Terrell Suggs was a part time player as a rookie. He pretty much just rushed the passer. Ask Eddie George what he thought of Suggs development as an OLB in his first year. I think Eddie hung about 150 right at him when Suggs got some of his first full time duty in their playoff game that year. Personally, I'd like more than 19 tackles out of the strong side OLB.

I am not totally against this, I just don't see it happening. Two pure pass rushers on both sides? For $16 million or whatever it would take?

 

[AbeBeta]

Well the fact that you bring up a statement that has nothing to do with our debate shows me you really will say anything to sound good.

Do you think that BP would have drafted him if he didn't impress him in some way? Oh yeah, Rogers was BPs guy. Up until the fact that he turned out to be soft.

You still have yet to show me one team that has built its entire success on the draft without signing any FA.

And you did suggest that 6 games wasn't enough experience for Abraham to play the 3-4 again.

Fact is, BP has first hand knowledge of the player.
Fact is, we have enough cap money to get him.
Fact is, Abraham did play the 3-4 under BP coached by Grohl(A BP guy)
Fact is, he had success in that same 3-4.
Fact is, 28 is the prime for him. Check out last weeks stats on him
Fact is, this team will still be lead by our draftees like Witten, Ware, Roy, TNew, James, Burnett, Canty, Spears, Crayton, LA, and Flo. Are those enough facts for you?

Actually, no.

BP drafted the guy yes. First hand knowledge yes -- of him as a rookie. Played 6 games in the 3-4 yes. Fact, great game last week. But also, DUI arrest. lengthy holdout. missed 27% of the games the jets have played in his career. missed 40% of jets playoff games in his career. Fact, one game isn't evidence of "prime." Fact, there's a lot of facts here that BP doesn't like.

Fact. We do have the cap money to get him next year. Fact - TNEW, Roy, and Witten are all going to get big new deals soon. Fact, spending on Abraham and those three guys will limit free agent signings in the future and may keep us from addressing the OL.

 

[50cent]

Actually, no.

BP drafted the guy yes. First hand knowledge yes -- of him as a rookie. Played 6 games in the 3-4 yes. Fact, great game last week. But also, DUI arrest. lengthy holdout. missed 27% of the games the jets have played in his career. missed 40% of jets playoff games in his career. Fact, one game isn't evidence of "prime." Fact, there's a lot of facts here that BP doesn't like. Fact. We do have the cap money to get him next year. Fact - TNEW, Roy, and Witten are all going to get big new deals soon. Fact, spending on Abraham and those three guys will limit free agent signings in the future and may keep us from addressing the OL.

How many more topics will you bring up to get away from your original post. And how do you know BP doesn't like anything you posted. You were the one that insisted, NOBODY KNOWS THEORY".
Fact, BP had knowledge of KEY threatning ex's boyfriend. STill took him
Fact, BP know of LTs drug abuse. Still kept.
Fact, BP knew of Glenns troubles in NE. Still traded for him.
Fact, JJ has always given guys chances with checkered past.
Fact, BP still took Glenn with his past health issues in the NFL.
Fact, you have absolutely no idea about the point your trying to make.
Fact, Abraham has played more than one game this year without missing a game and produced 8.5 sacks. Which would be the leader of this team and at a position that is very weak right now. At the age of 27, in his prime. That neither you or I can say how much he will demand or get once he hits FA!
Fact, Witten, Roy, and TNew have contract years coming up. What the hell does that have to do with what we are talking about. when their contracts are talked about in this thread, then comment on it. Oh but I get, somehow your trying to say we can't sign all of these guys and still get Witten, Roy, and Tnew. Right? Guess what, you don't know that either because you have no idea whats going on with their negiotiations like myself or if we can actually get all of these players. Cause like me, your not Stephen Jones and don't know our cap figures or our intention on whether or not we even won't to sign them back. Stick to your theory, "NOBODY KNOWS".

 

[AbeBeta]

How many more topics will you bring up to get away from your original post. And how do you know BP doesn't like anything you posted. You were the one that insisted, NOBODY KNOWS THEORY".
Fact, BP had knowledge of KEY threatning ex's boyfriend. STill took him
Fact, BP know of LTs drug abuse. Still kept.
Fact, BP knew of Glenns troubles in NE. Still traded for him.
Fact, JJ has always given guys chances with checkered past.
Fact, BP still took Glenn with his past health issues in the NFL.
Fact, you have absolutely no idea about the point your trying to make.
Fact, Abraham has played more than one game this year without missing a game and produced 8.5 sacks. Which would be the leader of this team and at a position that is very weak right now. At the age of 27, in his prime. That neither you or I can say how much he will demand or get once he hits FA!
Fact, Witten, Roy, and TNew have contract years coming up. What the hell does that have to do with what we are talking about. when their contracts are talked about in this thread, then comment on it. Oh but I get, somehow your trying to say we can't sign all of these guys and still get Witten, Roy, and Tnew. Right? Guess what, you don't know that either because you have no idea whats going on with their negiotiations like myself or if we can actually get all of these players. Cause like me, your not Stephen Jones and don't know our cap figures or our intention on whether or not we even won't to sign them back. Stick to your theory, "NOBODY KNOWS".

Fact -- You can present any information you want.
Fact -- If someone else presents information that counters your claims you cry "stick to your point.".
Fact -- You brought up having the cap space.
Fact -- Your logic is childish. "when their contracts are talked about in this thread, then comment on it." What kind of logic is that? Yeah, that's not at all relevant to spending huge scratch on a free agent. Not at all.
Fact -- You clearly do not understand the salary cap in any way.
Fact -- If you don't think we are re-signing Roy, TNew, and Witten then you are insane.
Fact -- I'm done with your childish and ignorant argument.
Fact -- I'll be happy to discuss issues with you in the past when you learn to argue like an adult.

 

[50cent]

Fact -- You can present any information you want.
Fact -- If someone else presents information that counters your claims you cry "stick to your point.".
Fact -- You brought up having the cap space.
Fact -- Your logic is childish. "when their contracts are talked about in this thread, then comment on it." What kind of logic is that? Yeah, that's not at all relevant to spending huge scratch on a free agent. Not at all.
Fact -- You clearly do not understand the salary cap in any way.
Fact -- If you don't think we are re-signing Roy, TNew, and Witten then you are insane.
Fact -- I'm done with your childish and ignorant argument.
Fact -- I'll be happy to discuss issues with you in the past when you learn to argue like an adult.

Finally!