Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Demonstrate somewhere, anywhere, in that article that suggests he was a dynamic rusher that could cover, which is exactly what this is all about.

Zero.

Nothing.

Nada.

The only "challenge" here is your idiocy.

The burden of proof was on you. You can't defend your statement.

I guess you figure people are too lazy to keep track of the discussion and you can somehow save face.

You continually try to appear smart, but you. Just. Fail. Every. Time.

Point and laugh everyone.

I know my "gramps" butt is doing it.

Now, go Google.

Find something about Karl Mecklenburg being great in coverage.



Chop chop.

ILB have coverage responsibilities and Phillips said he was the best he had ever seen at the position. This shouldn't be hard.

You just cannot help the personal attacks. No one else cares. I'm done.

 

[dallasdave]

I have first hand experience. I saw the player play.

I question if you actually did, at least when you were not chewing on a Nerds rope.

I was not the person suggesting that he could do something at a high level that he clearly did not.

I leave that special kind of idiocy to you.

But seeing how people like you today would just go "link?", and expect "facts", I figured we would save us all the time.

And thanks for the age denigration, kiddo. It all but proves my point.

You are full of it.

You talk an awful lot. You pretend like you know it all.

And no, Brainy Smurf, you really are not as informed as you think you are.



Not really.

Not a single, solitary damn one of them talks about his coverage prowess to the degree you describe.

But hey, anyone can check it out for themselves.

http://www.ibreatheimhungry.com/2016/09/low-carb-salisbury-steak-with-mushroom-gravy.html

 

[waldoputty]

Ware didn't. Miller doesn't. Hell Mack and Matthew don't. Nice to see more butt numbers though.

they dont what - rush?
you have 3 DL, what is wrong with rushing a LB all the time and another LB effective 65% of the time?

and you have not address the 7 advantages i posed including the number of defenders vs. the number of receivers.

 

[xwalker]

i already answered that.
the RDE->LB rushes 90% of the time.
the OLB draft pick rushes 70% of the time.
most of the time they are playing their position of strength.
the 30% of the time the OLB has to cover, the offense dont know whether he is rushing or dropping back and cannot focus on him.
if this forces the TE and the RB to block, you already won the chess match.
dictate the action instead of reacting to it.

i already counted the receivers and the defenders in previous post.
the 3-4 effectively increases the number of DBs while providing a simliar level of rush by scheme.

 

[dallasdave]

they dont what - rush?
you have 3 DL, what is wrong with rushing a LB all the time and another LB effective 65% of the time?

and you have not address the 7 advantages i posed including the number of defenders vs. the number of receivers.

Like your thinking Putty !!!! Put pressure on the other team !!!

 

[waldoputty]

come on, X
the scheme is not tough
the LB, Jaylon and Tapper only has to remember 3 configurations to shift into.

 

[dallasdave]

come on, X
the scheme is not tough
the LB, Jaylon and Tapper only has to remember 3 configurations to shift into.

Just get to the QB and hit him !!

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

they dont what - rush?
you have 3 DL, what is wrong with rushing a LB all the time and another LB effective 65% of the time?

and you have not address the 7 advantages i posed including the number of defenders vs. the number of receivers.

Only rush 70% of the time.

And I didn't address them because the lack of OLB who can rush and cover trumps and subsumes all of that. I get the benefits of a 3-4 if you have a bunch of really dynamic LBers to pull it off. My point is that we don't have them and they are more hard to find then RDE.

If you don't have them then you are either putting guys who cannot cover into coverage or you are pigeonholed into who your rushers are.

 

[waldoputty]

Well, I will be damned. I posted a link what I cooked for the kids tonight.

It was tasty.

I need to clear out the cache better.

But if you will notice, my very challenged friend, there was again, nothing, zero, in that article which had direct quotes I posted, that suggested anything like what you suggested that Mecklenburg was anything like you suggested.

Salisbury steak---

hmmm, what else do you cook?
how far r u from LA?
trouty and i may come for dinner...

 

[dallasdave]

hmmm, what else do you cook?
how far r u from LA?
trouty and i may come for dinner...

Guess who's coming to dinner ???

 

[waldoputty]

Only rush 70% of the time.

And I didn't address them because the lack of OLB who can rush and cover trumps and subsumes all of that. I get the benefits of a 3-4 if you have a bunch of really dynamic LBers to pull it off. My point is that we don't have them and they are more hard to find then RDE.

If you don't have them then you are either putting guys who cannot cover into coverage or you are pigeonholed into who your rushers are.

jaylon is one that can do both.
lee can cover.
we nail a OLB that is good at rush in the draft and rush him 70% of the time.
we have tapper as a LB that rushes 90% of the time so all we are really doing is have him stand up and rush from a different place than against the LT

all schemes are about tradeoffs.
you are trading 30% with an inferior pass defender for 70% with a superior passrush.
and remember we still have jaylon who is a superior pass defender as well as lee - that makes up for a lot.
furthermore, if the blitz package wins the numbers game by isolating the LT/RG, that is an EXTRA pass defender who is 'inferior'.

really the point is to finesse the LT to essentially take him away from the overload zone and move the RDE (LB) away from him most of the time.
if we deploy this in a 2nd down or 1st down, then the DT may shift into the LT-LG gap to keep the LT to keep him occupied with the worst DL.
this may sound radical, but on 3rd and long, we could even move the NT into the LT-LG gap for stuff the run there.

 

[dallasdave]

jaylon is one that can do both.
lee can cover.
we nail a OLB that is good at rush in the draft and rush him 70% of the time.
we have tapper as a LB that rushes 90% of the time so all we are really doing is have him stand up and rush from a different place than against the LT

all schemes are about tradeoffs.
you are trading 30% with an inferior pass defender for 70% with a superior passrush.
and remember we still have jaylon who is a superior pass defender as well as lee - that makes up for a lot.
furthermore, if the blitz package wins the numbers game by isolating the LT/RG, that is an EXTRA pass defender who is 'inferior'.

really the point is to finesse the LT to essentially take him away from the overload zone and move the RDE (LB) away from him most of the time.
if we deploy this in a 2nd down or 1st down, then the DT may shift into the LT-LG gap to keep the LT to keep him occupied with the worst DL.
this may sound radical, but on 3rd and long, we could even move the NT into the LT-LG gap for stuff the run there.

Jaylon can do it all !!!!

 

[xwalker]

come on, X
the scheme is not tough
the LB, Jaylon and Tapper only has to remember 3 configurations to shift into.

It's the 90%, 70%, 30% explanation that prompted the image.

It's near 100% that they won't do something that has never been done in the NFL before. They might put together elements that have not been used together in one scheme, but if you have an idea to implement something, you need to find some instances of that concept being used in the NFL at some point in the past. Rob Ryan tried and it failed and many many coach-commentators pronounced his scheme as unsound. Other ex-coaches pronounced it a fail behinds the scenes (many told Jerry directly that RR's scheme would not work over time).

He got fired 4 times between 2010 and 2016.

If you can't find an example of a defense moving their RDE to the outside of the LDE and just leaving the LT uncovered, then it's not going to happen at this point.

Millions of hours have gone into the study of these issues by people who do this all day every day.

 

[waldoputty]

It's the 90%, 70%, 30% explanation that prompted the image.

It's near 100% that they won't do something that has never been done in the NFL before. They might put together elements that have not been used together in one scheme, but if you have an idea to implement something, you need to find some instances of that concept being used in the NFL at some point in the past. Rob Ryan tried and it failed and many many coach-commentators pronounced his scheme as unsound. Other ex-coaches pronounced it a fail behinds the scenes (many told Jerry directly that RR's scheme would not work over time).

He got fired 4 times between 2010 and 2016.

If you can't find an example of a defense moving their RDE to the outside of the LDE and just leaving the LT uncovered, then it's not going to happen at this point.

Millions of hours have gone into the study of these issues by people who do this all day every day.

if it is 3-and-20, you could move anyone anywhere.
if it is 3-and-15, it is quite doable.
the question is what u do with 3-and-10

and i thought i have seen plays where the DL leaves some OL totally uncovered.
u already said we leave shade away from the middle of the LOS so it is not exactly new.
basically i want to finesse the LT so he is wasted for half the play.
and perhaps even do delay S blitz when he runs to help his buddies.

one could even say move the DT to the RG-RT gap to occupy the LT's time some of the time.
i am just say use the worst DL to occupy the best OL in pass rush.

i am just saying have the RDE rush 90% of the time from different places.
it could be outside the TE or. it could be in the A-gap closer to the LT.

like someone said on this thread, perhaps RR's problem is lack of execution and lack of player development, not that his schemes do not work.

regarding your idea to use jaylon like atlanta does beasley one disadvantage is jaylon is a great cover LB. so i rather have been either rush up the a-gap more often than attack from outside the TE.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

jaylon is one that can do both.
lee can cover.
we nail a OLB that is good at rush in the draft and rush him 70% of the time.
we have tapper as a LB that rushes 90% of the time so all we are really doing is have him stand up and rush from a different place than against the LT

all schemes are about tradeoffs.
you are trading 30% with an inferior pass defender for 70% with a superior passrush.
and remember we still have jaylon who is a superior pass defender as well as lee - that makes up for a lot.
furthermore, if the blitz package wins the numbers game by isolating the LT/RG, that is an EXTRA pass defender who is 'inferior'.

really the point is to finesse the LT to essentially take him away from the overload zone and move the RDE (LB) away from him most of the time.
if we deploy this in a 2nd down or 1st down, then the DT may shift into the LT-LG gap to keep the LT to keep him occupied with the worst DL.
this may sound radical, but on 3rd and long, we could even move the NT into the LT-LG gap for stuff the run there.

Again, no WOLB rushes that few of times. I know you think you have it more figured out than Phillips, Norton, or Capers but you haven't.

And the 4-3 under already isolates the LT and RG every down due to the formation. You can still blitz those weakside A and B gaps in the 4-3. We already run zone dogs and blitzes putting inferior players into coverage.

You sure like taking credit for things the 4-3 already does. What the 3-4 doesn't do well is put the weakside rusher in a good pass rush stance off the ball.

 

[waldoputty]

Again, no WOLB rushes that few of times. I know you think you have it more figured out than Phillips, Norton, or Capers but you haven't.

And the 4-3 under already isolates the LT and RG every down due to the formation. You can still blitz those weakside A and B gaps in the 4-3. We already run zone dogs and blitzes putting inferior players into coverage.

You sure like taking credit for things the 4-3 already does. What the 3-4 doesn't do well is put the weakside rusher in a good pass rush stance off the ball.

I dont understand what you mean by already isolates the LT. I am literally saying line up so the LT has no one to block except the S (or LB) that is off the LOS by 3 yards threatening a delayed blitz. That would get you the extra man in coverage when the S drops back in coverage while the LT has to scramble to help his buddies.

To simply things, have tapper and the OLB rush 95% of the time. Jaylon would rush 50% of the time in passing downs. So you are rushing 5 95% of the time, while the 6th guy (Jaylon) has the green light so he works on instinct.

Configurations:
1. 4-3
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collins-Tapper standing up wide-9
LB: OLB-Jaylon-Lee
DB: CB1-Jones-Heath-CB2

2. 3-4 shift 1
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes to C-RG gap threatening rush
OLB goes outside of TE threatening rush
Jaylon threatens rush at C-LG gap
Heath lines up 3 yards from LT threatening delay blitz to hold the LT for a second after snap

3. 3-4 shift 2
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes outside TE threatening rush
OLB goes to RG-C gap threatening rush
Heath goes to LG-C gap threatening rush
Jaylon plays 3 yards off LT threatening delay rush

4. 3-4 shift 3
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes to RT-TE gap
OLB goes to RG-C gap threatening rush
Heath goes to LG-C gap threatening rush
Jaylon plays 3 yards off LT threatening delay rush

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

It's the 90%, 70%, 30% explanation that prompted the image.

It's near 100% that they won't do something that has never been done in the NFL before. They might put together elements that have not been used together in one scheme, but if you have an idea to implement something, you need to find some instances of that concept being used in the NFL at some point in the past. Rob Ryan tried and it failed and many many coach-commentators pronounced his scheme as unsound. Other ex-coaches pronounced it a fail behinds the scenes (many told Jerry directly that RR's scheme would not work over time).

He got fired 4 times between 2010 and 2016.

If you can't find an example of a defense moving their RDE to the outside of the LDE and just leaving the LT uncovered, then it's not going to happen at this point.

Millions of hours have gone into the study of these issues by people who do this all day every day.

Then of course you have the 4-3 under where you line up your two best rushers on the weakside and the formation isolates them. Maliek Collins is about to have a big year and in a 3-4 he would be wasted like he was in Nebraska. We have a heck of a LDE in Irving and another pretty good one in Crawford. We have DLaw, Tapper, and Mayowa at RDE.

This notion that the 3-4 produces more quality defenses than the 4-3 is absurd.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I dont understand what you mean by already isolates the LT. I am literally saying line up so the LT has no one to block except the S (or LB) that is off the LOS by 3 yards threatening a delayed blitz. That would get you the extra man in coverage when the S drops back in coverage while the LT has to scramble to help his buddies.

To simply things, have tapper and the OLB rush 95% of the time. Jaylon would rush 50% of the time in passing downs. So you are rushing 5 95% of the time, while the 6th guy (Jaylon) has the green light so he works on instinct.

Configurations:
1. 4-3
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collins-Tapper standing up wide-9
LB: OLB-Jaylon-Lee
DB: CB1-Jones-Heath-CB2

2. 3-4 shift 1
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes to C-RG gap threatening rush
OLB goes outside of TE threatening rush
Jaylon threatens rush at C-LG gap
Heath lines up 3 yards from LT threatening delay blitz to hold the LT for a second after snap

3. 3-4 shift 2
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes outside TE threatening rush
OLB goes to RG-C gap threatening rush
Heath goes to LG-C gap threatening rush
Jaylon plays 3 yards off LT threatening delay rush

4. 3-4 shift 3
DL: TCrawford-NT-Collin with Collins lined up at LG-LT gap
Tapper goes to RT-TE gap
OLB goes to RG-C gap threatening rush
Heath goes to LG-C gap threatening rush
Jaylon plays 3 yards off LT threatening delay rush

And what are you going to do when the offense checks into a weakside run or screen/smoke route? There is a reason why teams don't do that.

 

[waldoputty]

And what are you going to do when the offense checks into a weakside run or screen/smoke route? There is a reason why teams don't do that.

again it is about uncertainty of what the offense will get, as well as the timing of the shifting.
i have seen teams do a great job at timing their shifts, but cowboys seem to be bad at it.
that is probably a marinelli flaw.

part of the shift pattern is back to the 4-3 where the RDE is in fact lined up wide 9 against a weak side run.
another thing is you dont always start in the 4-3, but also start in the 3-4
and part of the shift is back to the 4-3 which is played some of the time.

the main weakness is the weakside like u said, and you may bait a run in 3 and very long - that would be a scheme win.
and the S/LB that spy/delay blitz is someone who may be fast/agile enough to get around the LT like S or Jaylon.
also the DE will be in the LT-LG gap to help keep the LT busy.

but yes it is a race but that is the nature of an aggressive D.
will the a-gap guy and other guys get there before QB gets the ball away.
that is why i think we can play this D because our O is so dominant.
all we need to play this D is a OLB and a NT - 1st and 2nd round picks.

lets say offense responds.
question is what they can do.
they can go in shotgun, they can add protection, they can call for a screen

lets say QB is under center and he goes into shot gun.
then that makes a run less effective and it may be worth our while to shift jaylon from pass rush to drop back.

while screen is always a counter to a blitz, the 3 DLs are expected to occupy the OL to facilitate things for the blitzers, so they are not expected to have penetrated far beyond the LOS.
again we would play zone behind so there is a safety net.
and we may well have a 2 man advantage in defender vs receiver - i did the math before.

 

[waldoputty]

Then of course you have the 4-3 under where you line up your two best rushers on the weakside and the formation isolates them. Maliek Collins is about to have a big year and in a 3-4 he would be wasted like he was in Nebraska. We have a heck of a LDE in Irving and another pretty good one in Crawford. We have DLaw, Tapper, and Mayowa at RDE.

This notion that the 3-4 produces more quality defenses than the 4-3 is absurd.

again my proposal is IF the D sucked this year.
we all have hope for collins.
lets not forget he has been dinged both camps.
if our D progresses, then we could add some SLB scheme like you and X said.
also it is good to finally see the RDE standing up in some cases and i presume he is lining up wider also (though not sure).