Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the other point i found is: an OLB who can rush and cover is more rare than a RDE that can rush.

again, this is a 3-4 attack defense that morphs from a 4-3 and can say 1/3 of the time shift back to a 4-3. if you have 4 LBs, you have Lee, Jaylon, say Tapper and the new OLB. The OLB would be the difficult case in your view. however, Lee and Jaylon are good cover guys. you would have tapper passrush almost all of the time and the new OLB passrush say 60% of the time. so his weakness is eliminated for those downs.

furthermore, if you threaten the D gap, then the TE and/or RB would need to worry about the OLB. so you are taking out 1 or 2 receiver threats. so pass defense wise, the OLB has 'covered' 1-2 receiver. we would be dictating the situation rather than reacting to the offense.

And now for the third time, on passing downs unless you have Mack or Matthews, blocking knows who the 4th rusher is, the rush LB. That was how it was with Ware. That dynamic completely removes the element of surprise. It is easier to rush from a 3 point stance given the nature of leverage anyway.

Tapper is not an OLB. Stoops had him at DE when he played in the 3-4 and he was not good at it. He had electric combine numbers out of a major school and fell to the 4th as a result.

The only way your morph works is if you have dynamic rushers who can cover at a high level. Think Mecklenburg and Fletcher in the 80s Orange Crush. Tapper is not that and we have discussed the nature of scarcity. What you are left with are players covering in the area where hot routes are run with no talent to cover.

Teams run protections including the TE and RB as it is on most downs; we have one of the best OL of the past couple decades and we still run 6 man protections most of the time. You are not accomplishing anything with opposing pass pro and your hypothesis is not realistic.

 

[TheCount]

This can easily be remedied. Don't want to bother ya. Just ask some others around here. I can go buh-byes for ya

It was a joke man, all in good fun!

 

[Trouty]

It was a joke man, all in good fun!

As was mine, my dear brother

 

[Alexander]

The only way your morph works is if you have dynamic rushers who can cover at a high level. Think Mecklenburg and Fletcher in the 80s Orange Crush.

Please please please tell me you think Mecklenburg was a dynamic rusher who could also cover.

Or just tell me you are talking out of your backside thinking nobody is old enough to recognize what you are saying.

 

[Trouty]

The day I need you to teach me about football, I will go ahead and eat a bullet and just get things over with.



Yes, you don't. And that is exactly why I called out your idiotic "we don't have a thumper" comment. Is Ryan Shazier a "thumper"? If he were healthy, he would be the prototypical ILB in today's 3-4 or hybrid D.



Modern defenses that use a three man front are not like your dad's 3-4. He would not have to be this "thumper" that quite honestly could be exploited by fast quick backs right in his face in short passing situations.

If Smith is 100%, he can play in any defense.

Good god, that first paragraph!! LOL

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The day I need you to teach me about football, I will go ahead and eat a bullet and just get things over with.

Yes, you don't. And that is exactly why I called out your idiotic "we don't have a thumper" comment.

Modern defenses that use a three man front are not like your dad's 3-4. He would not have to be this "thumper" that quite honestly could be exploited by fast quick backs right in his face in short passing situations.

If Smith is 100%, he can play in any defense.

Juvenile and self assuming as is typical with your posts but you ate up the teach comment hook, line, and sinker. Good job.

Phillips was running 1 gap 3-4s 25 years ago. You were certainly around back then and your ignorance is on display. At the end of the day the OG are not covered in the formation and that is the important issue. That is the hole point you don't even need quickness from a RB if your LB cannot handle those OG who get free releases. With a guy that can take on blocks and gap discipline across the front it's not as easy to run between the tackles for scat backs as you claim.

Sure there are hybrid fronts that cover the G but at that point it's moot because unless you have a WOLB who can cover then it makes sense to have his hand in the dirt for an easier rush and better leverage. It's the exact same formation as the 4-3 under we roll with.

As far as Smith is concerned. He did not do well taking on blocks at ND. He was okay but hardly overpowering. It's typical of college prospects and no reason to bash but there is no reason to believe your assertion.

 

[Alexander]

Phillips was running 1 gap 3-4s 25 years ago.

You were certainly around back then and your ignorance is on display.

Hmmm. Here is Wade Phillips specifically talking about him endorsing him for the Hall of Fame.

"He was a tremendous pass rusher. I’ve never been around anybody that played inside backer as well as he did. He was great at it. And then on third down, you’d put him outside and let him rush.

"He could have been a defensive end all the time. His stats would have gone up where his sacks are concerned, but he made so many tackles you had to play him inside at an inside 'backer. He was a tremendous, tremendous player and a great effort player and certainly a great person.”

Well.

You would think when a coach could take the opportunity to campaign for a former player, he would mention all what they did and could do at a high level.

I wonder why Phillips just conveniently decided to omit his dazzling coverage ability from his pitch for him to make the Hall of Fame?

I guess he is just senile and forgot about the vaunted coverage ability that you somehow know more about.

Surely, he has to be wrong.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Please please please tell me you think Mecklenburg was a dynamic rusher who could also cover.

Or just tell me you are talking out of your backside thinking nobody is old enough to recognize what you are saying.

8 out of 11 seasons with 7 or more sacks. In the 80s when they were using him as an ILB he had 5 picks. Fletcher had better range

Wade Phillips was using a 1 gap 3-4 back in then too. Your ignorance to the time period is amusing. Curious though, while defenses are more multiple nowadays, exactly what DC is using brand new formations and techniques on defense that were not around in "dad's defenses?" You think that Joker in Jax is something new?

Further my overarching point was that you needed one guy who could do both Mecklenburg was an ILB who could pass rush to complement the edge rushers who could also cover. You need dynamic LB to pull off a 3-4 that is any better than a 4-3.The Mecklenburgs of the world are as hard to find as the Macks.

It's amusing watching you get all butthurt when I speak in declarations though. Let's continue.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Hmmm. Here is Wade Phillips specifically talking about him endorsing him for the Hall of Fame.



Well.

You would think when a coach could take the opportunity to campaign for a former player, he would mention all what they did and could do at a high level.

I wonder why Phillips just conveniently decided to omit his dazzling coverage ability from his pitch for him to make the Hall of Fame?

I guess he is just senile and forgot about the vaunted coverage ability that you somehow know more about.

Surely, he has to be wrong.

Just because he did not mention it does not mean he could not do it. You suck at deductions. FRankly if he was an ILB who could not cover you should be able to find better than that as an indictment of his coverage abilities.

And weren't you claiming that you had first hand experience? Where is your talk of seeing first hand how he could not cover, gramps? Oh wait google didn't have what you were looking for. So sorry.

BTW that article has his former DCs describing as the most versatile they had ever seen. I can understand why you did not include a link in your post. It undermines your position severely.

 

[waldoputty]

And now for the third time, on passing downs unless you have Mack or Matthews, blocking knows who the 4th rusher is, the rush LB. That was how it was with Ware. That dynamic completely removes the element of surprise. It is easier to rush from a 3 point stance given the nature of leverage anyway.

Tapper is not an OLB. Stoops had him at DE when he played in the 3-4 and he was not good at it. He had electric combine numbers out of a major school and fell to the 4th as a result.

The only way your morph works is if you have dynamic rushers who can cover at a high level. Think Mecklenburg and Fletcher in the 80s Orange Crush. Tapper is not that and we have discussed the nature of scarcity. What you are left with are players covering in the area where hot routes are run with no talent to cover.

Teams run protections including the TE and RB as it is on most downs; we have one of the best OL of the past couple decades and we still run 6 man protections most of the time. You are not accomplishing anything with opposing pass pro and your hypothesis is not realistic.

ways to disguise the passrusher include:
1. moving the passrushers around
2. have multiple passrushers that threaten to passrush
3. do the shift later in the snap count to give the offense less time to adjust

i already agree with you that the tappers of the world will be passrushing 90% of the time.
then say we draft a 240lb LB who is really good in passrush and rush him 60% of the time.

with a 3-x, that is still only 5 pass rushers, which is the same as a 4-3 with 1 blitzer.

your idea that the offense will know which guy is passrushing needs time for the protection schemes to be changed. lets say the QB or the C shouts out the protection schemes, can either say and keep track of multiple people moving around?

you said teams run protection schemes with TE and RB involved. wonderful. lets count. 5OL + QB + RB + TE = 8 players, leaving 3 receivers.
if we threaten a passrush with 3 LBs (tapper, olb, jaylon), you get 3DL+ 3LB = 6

So 6 defenders keeping 8 offense players busy.
you have 3 receivers left to be covered by a zone/man of 4 DBs and Lee.
Not a bad situation.
If we do the S keeping the LT busy, then we are 'committing' up to 7 defenders, leaving 4 defenders to cover 3 receivers. more risky but the QB is not going to have much time to pass.

doing this in the 3-4 instead of the 4-3 means 1 more defender on the receivers.
you are trying to squeeze 1 or more OL so that they are blocking no one.
that includes the LT that is scrambling from the left side of the LOS to help his buddies and perhaps the RG who may be left with no one to block (depending on which gap is attacked).

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

ways to disguise the passrusher include:
1. moving the passrushers around

You can move around the rushers in a 4-3 alignment and you can move Ware to MLB and teams are still going to know where the rush is coming from.

2. have multiple passrushers that threaten to passrush

All defenses have multiple rushers. If you have extra beyond the 4 then you better blitz or you are going to have people covering short throws that suck at it.

3. do the shift later in the snap count to give the offense less time to adjust

Presnap movement is not exclusive to the 3-4 and its not like you can flop OLB easily presnap without getting caught with your pants down.

 

[Alexander]

Just because he did not mention it does not mean he could not do it. You suck at deductions. FRankly if he was an ILB who could not cover you should be able to find better than that as an indictment of his coverage abilities.

And weren't you claiming that you had first hand experience? Where is your talk of seeing first hand how he could not cover, gramps? Oh wait google didn't have what you were looking for. So sorry.

I have first hand experience. I saw the player play.

I question if you actually did, at least when you were not chewing on a Nerds rope.

I was not the person suggesting that he could do something at a high level that he clearly did not.

I leave that special kind of idiocy to you.

But seeing how people like you today would just go "link?", and expect "facts", I figured we would save us all the time.

And thanks for the age denigration, kiddo. It all but proves my point.

You are full of it.

You talk an awful lot. You pretend like you know it all.

And no, Brainy Smurf, you really are not as informed as you think you are.

BTW that article has his former DCs describing as the most versatile they had ever seen. I can understand why you did not include a link in your post. It undermines your position severely.

Not really.

Not a single, solitary damn one of them talks about his coverage prowess to the degree you describe.

But hey, anyone can check it out for themselves.

http://www.ibreatheimhungry.com/2016/09/low-carb-salisbury-steak-with-mushroom-gravy.html

 

[waldoputty]

You can move around the rushers in a 4-3 alignment and you can move Ware to MLB and teams are still going to know where the rush is coming from.

All defenses have multiple rushers. If you have extra beyond the 4 then you better blitz or you are going to have people covering short throws that suck at it.

Presnap movement is not exclusive to the 3-4 and its not like you can flop OLB easily presnap without getting caught with your pants down.

1) Sure presnap movement is not exclusive to the 3-4, but defenders standing up should be able to move around a lot faster than with hands on the ground.
2) the 3DL with their hands on the ground are much more 'stationary' and easier to account for. with the 4-3, there is 1 more DL that can be accounted for easier.
3) with the shifts i am suggesting, it is easier to get LT far from the overload area and perhaps the RG stuck between 2 OL constrained in his movement.
4) sure you can get caught with pants down (@Trouty dont get excited) but if you time them later in the count, obviously your chances improve. standing up, it is easier to shift later in the count.
5) you still need to address freeing the RDE from the LT matchup and moving the overloading away from the LT most of the time.
6) all defenses can have multiple blitzers, but the 3-4 has 1 less DL who is more or less stationary before the snap.
7) furthermore, if you can move the attack away from the LT and sort of squeeze the RG out of the action for a little while, you can rush 1 less guy and add a pass defender in the backfield while achieving a similar level of passrush.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I have first hand experience. I saw the player play.

I question if you actually did, at least when you were not chewing on a Nerds rope.

I was not the person suggesting that he could do something at a high level that he clearly did not.

I leave that special kind of idiocy to you.

But seeing how people like you today would just go "link?", and expect "facts", I figured we would save us all the time.

And thanks for the age denigration, kiddo. It all but proves my point.

You are full of it.

You talk an awful lot. You pretend like you know it all.

And no, Brainy Smurf, you really are not as informed as you think you are.



Not really.

Not a single, solitary damn one of them talks about his coverage prowess to the degree you describe.

But hey, anyone can check it out for themselves.

http://www.ibreatheimhungry.com/2016/09/low-carb-salisbury-steak-with-mushroom-gravy.html

I question if you actually did.

Specifically because that post speaks not of Mecklenburg but its all about your angst over me.

As for the article here is the real one: http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-a...-of-Fame/f4f15b9a-53e3-481d-aaf6-31b62e327f07

"He was a tremendous pass rusher. I’ve never been around anybody that played inside backer as well as he did. He was great at it," said Phillips, who also coached Jackson in New Orleans from 1981-85. "And then on third down, you’d put him outside and let him rush.

"He’s a Hall of Famer because I’ve never seen a guy and I’ve never heard of one that’s in the Hall of Fame that could play inside and rush the passer," said Defensive Coordinator Wade Phillips, who coached Mecklenburg from 1989-94. "It’s just a combination that nobody else had."

Sixteen other players had at least 75 sacks, five interceptions and 15 forced fumbles in their careers. But only one of them was also a tackling machine; according to pro-football-reference.com, Mecklenburg is one of just two players all-time with those three statistics -- plus over 1,000 career tackles.

But the fact that opponents had to adjust their tactics on the fly depending on where he aligned himself on any given play shows his impact. Few defenders in NFL history inflicted more damage on opposing offenses from as many directions as Mecklenburg.

"He played everywhere," recalled Head Coach Gary Kubiak, who played nine seasons with Mecklenburg. "I could remember me being in San Francisco in 1994 and him being the [middle] linebacker against us when we played them."

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

1) Sure presnap movement is not exclusive to the 3-4, but defenders standing up should be able to move around a lot faster than with hands on the ground.
2) the 3DL with their hands on the ground are much more 'stationary' and easier to account for. with the 4-3, there is 1 more DL that can be accounted for easier.
3) with the shifts i am suggesting, it is easier to get LT far from the overload area and perhaps the RG stuck between 2 OL constrained in his movement.
4) sure you can get caught with pants down (@Trouty dont get excited) but if you time them later in the count, obviously your chances improve. standing up, it is easier to shift later in the count.
5) you still need to address freeing the RDE from the LT matchup and moving the overloading away from the LT most of the time.
6) all defenses can have multiple blitzers, but the 3-4 has 1 less DL who is more or less stationary before the snap.
7) furthermore, if you can move the attack away from the LT and sort of squeeze the RG out of the action for a little while, you can rush 1 less guy and add a pass defender in the backfield while achieving a similar level of passrush.

You left out the rebuttal to needing rushers who can also cover in order for that to work. That is the 800 lbs gorilla. I'm not arguing the minutiae.

 

[waldoputty]

You left out the rebuttal to needing rushers who can also cover in order for that to work. That is the 800 lbs gorilla. I'm not arguing the minutiae.

i already answered that.
the RDE->LB rushes 90% of the time.
the OLB draft pick rushes 70% of the time.
most of the time they are playing their position of strength.
the 30% of the time the OLB has to cover, the offense dont know whether he is rushing or dropping back and cannot focus on him.
if this forces the TE and the RB to block, you already won the chess match.
dictate the action instead of reacting to it.

i already counted the receivers and the defenders in previous post.
the 3-4 effectively increases the number of DBs while providing a simliar level of rush by scheme.

 

[Alexander]

I question if you actually did.

Specifically because that post speaks not of Mecklenburg but its all about your angst over me.

As for the article here is the real one: http://www.denverbroncos.com/news-a...-of-Fame/f4f15b9a-53e3-481d-aaf6-31b62e327f07

Well, I will be damned. I posted a link what I cooked for the kids tonight.

It was tasty.

I need to clear out the cache better.

But if you will notice, my very challenged friend, there was again, nothing, zero, in that article which had direct quotes I posted, that suggested anything like what you suggested that Mecklenburg was anything like you suggested.

Salisbury steak---

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Well, I will be damned. I posted a link what I cooked for the kids tonight.

It was tasty.

I need to clear out the cache better.

But if you will notice, my very challenged friend, there was again, nothing, zero, in that article which had direct quotes I posted, that suggested anything like what you suggested that Mecklenburg was anything like you suggested.

Salisbury steak---

It touts his versatility, his int numbers, and has Phillips saying he played ILB better than anyone he had ever seen. The only challenge is your reading and critical thinking skills.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

i already answered that.
the RDE->LB rushes 90% of the time.
the OLB draft pick rushes 70% of the time.
most of the time they are playing their position of strength.
the 30% of the time the OLB has to cover, the offense dont know whether he is rushing or dropping back and cannot focus on him.
if this forces the TE and the RB to block, you already won the chess match.
dictate the action instead of reacting to it.

i already counted the receivers and the defenders in previous post.
the 3-4 effectively increases the number of DBs while providing a simliar level of rush by scheme.

Ware didn't. Miller doesn't. Hell Mack and Matthew don't. Nice to see more butt numbers though.

 

[dallasdave]

So far, I think you won the dance off.