Taco, HOF game, Waldo’s 3-4 and more

[Alexander]

i am cool. i am used to being called out. thanks

So far, I think you won the dance off.

 

[xwalker]

not real clear to me - could you provide a picture or diagram? thanks
here is my main question - is your RDE being blocked by the LT?
if so, that is what i am objecting.

The 3-4 ROLB or the 4-3 RDE both get blocked by the LT.

DWare went against LTs as a 3-4 OLB. He would have 1000 career sacks otherwise.

In my plan the 4-3 SLB can move over next to the RDE occasionally and the RB will have to block him OR the TE will have to move to the Right side pre-snap. Either way, if that SLB is a legit pass rusher, then it's a mis-match against a RB or TE.

 

[xwalker]

Pricck!

Haley's a meanie today.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

The 3-4 ROLB or the 4-3 RDE both get blocked by the LT.

DWare went against LTs as a 3-4 OLB. He would have 1000 career sacks otherwise.

In my plan the 4-3 SLB can move over next to the RDE occasionally and the RB will have to block him OR the TE will have to move to the Right side pre-snap. Either way, if that SLB is a legit pass rusher, then it's a mis-match against a RB or TE.

He has been explained this before. I pointed out that with how we play the SAM the difference between Phillip's 3-4 and our 4-3 is that the RDE has his hand in dirt the as opposed to the WOLB who stands up and has coverage responsibilities.

He knows that the 250 lbs OLB can be transitioned to our defense. He knows that an OLB who can rush and cover is more rare than a RDE that can rush. He knows that we are several players from a starting 3-4 lineup and that we would have no depth. WE've been repeating ourselves at this point.

I think he just argues for the attention.

 

[waldoputty]

The 3-4 ROLB or the 4-3 RDE both get blocked by the LT.

DWare went against LTs as a 3-4 OLB. He would have 1000 career sacks otherwise.

In my plan the 4-3 SLB can move over next to the RDE occasionally and the RB will have to block him OR the TE will have to move to the Right side pre-snap. Either way, if that SLB is a legit pass rusher, then it's a mis-match against a RB or TE.

here is what i dont understand.
in an obvious passing down, they will almost definitely never rush.
take the RDE to the other side like what atlanta does with beasley.
the RDE would get the TE (cannot go into coverage) or the RB - both mismatches.
jaylon and/or another LB can threaten double-A rushes.
depending on offense response, they can rush or fall back.

you can leave the LT uncovered and perhaps play a S off of him.
after snap, the LT will scramble to the right to help the other lineman.
the S has an option to do a delay blitz.

 

[Trouty]

Josh!! Talk to me?!?

Missed you so much, my brother. So, so much

 

[waldoputty]

He has been explained this before. I pointed out that with how we play the SAM the difference between Phillip's 3-4 and our 4-3 is that the RDE has his hand in dirt the as opposed to the WOLB who stands up and has coverage responsibilities.

He knows that the 250 lbs OLB can be transitioned to our defense. He knows that an OLB who can rush and cover is more rare than a RDE that can rush. He knows that we are several players from a starting 3-4 lineup and that we would have no depth. WE've been repeating ourselves at this point.

I think he just argues for the attention.

lol, i get lots of attention from trouty's tavern.
i really believe this.
i dont think we are several players from a 3-4 because what i am suggesting can rapidly shift from a 3-4 and a 4-3 during the snap count.
we just need a NT and a OLB.

is Lee ideal for this, no, but he does not have to be because we would be disguising the formation and can shift back and forth.

 

[haleyrules]

lol, i get lots of attention from trouty's tavern.
i really believe this.
i dont think we are several players from a 3-4 because what i am suggesting can rapidly shift from a 3-4 and a 4-3 during the snap count.
we just need a NT and a OLB.

is Lee ideal for this, no, but he does not have to be because we would be disguising the formation and can shift back and forth.

The 4-3 is for girls and college ball!!

 

[haleyrules]

here is what i dont understand.
in an obvious passing down, they will almost definitely never rush.
take the RDE to the other side like what atlanta does with beasley.
the RDE would get the TE (cannot go into coverage) or the RB - both mismatches.
jaylon and/or another LB can threaten double-A rushes.
depending on offense response, they can rush or fall back.

you can leave the LT uncovered and perhaps play a S off of him.
after snap, the LT will scramble to the right to help the other lineman.
the S has an option to do a delay blitz.

Safety on a LT...FO! Sober up!

 

[waldoputty]

Safety on a LT...FO! Sober up!

not on the LOS.
play him 3 yards off the LOS.
the LT can scramble to help the others in which case the S can decide to delay blitz.
or he can run back into coverage after delaying the LT from helping his linemates.

 

[xwalker]

here is what i dont understand.
in an obvious passing down, they will almost definitely never rush.
take the RDE to the other side like what atlanta does with beasley.
the RDE would get the TE (cannot go into coverage) or the RB - both mismatches.
jaylon and/or another LB can threaten double-A rushes.
depending on offense response, they can rush or fall back.

you can leave the LT uncovered and perhaps play a S off of him.
after snap, the LT will scramble to the right to help the other lineman.
the S has an option to do a delay blitz.

If you make it too easy to rush, then they will even on 3rd and 8. The LT uncovered with no DE can blow up a Safety and the RB can run right behind him. I would like my chances if I'm an O-Coordinator.

If you do it a few times, they'll start running a read-option to that side even with margially athletic QBs because you're short handed on that side.

If it's 3rd and 20 then I like the idea.

They do align both DTs and DEs wider in obvious passing situations leaving the middle somewhat exposed to the run. There is some similarity between that and what you're suggesting.

A variation to your idea would be a 3 man line but then bring in an extra DE on the outside to replace the DT that is missing.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

lol, i get lots of attention from trouty's tavern.
i really believe this.
i dont think we are several players from a 3-4 because what i am suggesting can rapidly shift from a 3-4 and a 4-3 during the snap count.
we just need a NT and a OLB.

is Lee ideal for this, no, but he does not have to be because we would be disguising the formation and can shift back and forth.

We have no OLB. We would need 2 OLB and a NT. Then of course you are projecting your DE being able to switch outside of Thornton. We have no thumper ILB.

And of course you didn't argue the rest of my post.

 

[waldoputty]

If you make it too easy to rush, then they will even on 3rd and 8. The LT uncovered with no DE can blow up a Safety and the RB can run right behind him. I would like my chances if I'm an O-Coordinator.

If you do it a few times, they'll start running a read-option to that side even with margially athletic QBs because you're short handed on that side.

If it's 3rd and 20 then I like the idea.

They do align both DTs and DEs wider in obvious passing situations leaving the middle somewhat exposed to the run. There is some similarity between that and what you're suggesting.

A variation to your idea would be a 3 man line but then bring in an extra DE on the outside to replace the DT that is missing.

right it is a matter of degrees.
3-and-20, oh yes
3-adn-15, probably
if it is a 3-and-8, i would not advocate that.
however, i want to stress - you can easily shift between a RDE standing up close to the LT and a LB lining up at the right A gap.

it is a matter of timing.
if you do this late in the snap count, the QB may not be able to switch up fast enough.
if he audibles, you have won and can shift to something else.
for example, perhaps line the RDE as the 3tech and shift everyone to the right.
i just want a continuous shifting morphing defense formation (within reason).

in terms of shifting the DL away from the middle.
yes i understand.
but that is where the pressure can reach the QBs the fastest.
so i would like to see 1-2 a-gap passrushers there reasonably often.
that is the 1 blitz that would get the QB's attention and potentially cause a time out.

for example you can threaten these attacks - and shift between at least 2 or 3 of them during the snap count:
1. tapper - a-gap, jaylon - d-gap where atlanta like to play beasley where he gets a TE/RB to beat, with safety lineup 3 yards off LOS to keep the LT busy/delay blitz
2. double a-gap with tapper and a fast DB who can shoot through the a-gap like a rocket
3. tapper - back to wide 9 with the LT, jaylon - a-gap, with a safety jumping in half way through snap count to threaten the a-gap or b-gap

--- there are plenty more to threaten
if we have a fast OLB, then even more permutations.

 

[Alexander]

We have no thumper ILB.

So, Jaylon Smith could not play ILB in a 3-4?

Well how about that.

If you believe all 3-4's have to have the "thumper" at interior LB, that is just not up with the times in terms of how defenses are working these days.

 

[waldoputty]

We have no OLB. We would need 2 OLB and a NT. Then of course you are projecting your DE being able to switch outside of Thornton. We have no thumper ILB.

And of course you didn't argue the rest of my post.

this is why i am suggesting this for the next draft - nail the OLB 1st, NT 2nd and OG 3rd and keep drafting these positions.

i already admitted Lee is not idea, but the shifting formations will help protect him. remember lee's contract runs out after 2019?

i will go back and find what else you wrote.

 

[waldoputty]

So, Jaylon Smith could not play ILB in a 3-4?

Well how about that.

If you believe all 3-4's have to have the "thumper" at interior LB, that is just not up with the times in terms of how defenses are working these days.

he could but we want him as the passrush threat.
one advantage of a morphing shifting D is that the O has a tougher time targeting Lee because they dont know what they will end up with in terms of defenders on the LOS and gaps.

 

[waldoputty]

We have no OLB. We would need 2 OLB and a NT. Then of course you are projecting your DE being able to switch outside of Thornton. We have no thumper ILB.

And of course you didn't argue the rest of my post.

the other point i found is: an OLB who can rush and cover is more rare than a RDE that can rush.

again, this is a 3-4 attack defense that morphs from a 4-3 and can say 1/3 of the time shift back to a 4-3. if you have 4 LBs, you have Lee, Jaylon, say Tapper and the new OLB. The OLB would be the difficult case in your view. however, Lee and Jaylon are good cover guys. you would have tapper passrush almost all of the time and the new OLB passrush say 60% of the time. so his weakness is eliminated for those downs.

furthermore, if you threaten the D gap, then the TE and/or RB would need to worry about the OLB. so you are taking out 1 or 2 receiver threats. so pass defense wise, the OLB has 'covered' 1-2 receiver. we would be dictating the situation rather than reacting to the offense.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

So, Jaylon Smith could not play ILB in a 3-4?

Well how about that.

If you believe all 3-4's have to have the "thumper" at interior LB, that is just not up with the times in terms of how defenses are working these days.

The 3-4 is more susceptible to OG being free whereas the 4-3 covers them up. If you need me to inform you on why that is I will be more than happy to teach you.

As a result of the above, you need LB that can take on OL blocks. Less so in the 4-3. Sure teams don't run as much but they still do at a high percentage when the base defense is in.

I don't know that Jaylon can play in the 3-4. He has never played in a 3-4 front and he's not a thumper? He certainly wasn't one at ND.

 

[xwalker]

right it is a matter of degrees.
3-and-20, oh yes
3-adn-15, probably
if it is a 3-and-8, i would not advocate that.
however, i want to stress - you can easily shift between a RDE standing up close to the LT and a LB lining up at the right A gap.

it is a matter of timing.
if you do this late in the snap count, the QB may not be able to switch up fast enough.
if he audibles, you have won and can shift to something else.
for example, perhaps line the RDE as the 3tech and shift everyone to the right.
i just want a continuous shifting morphing defense formation (within reason).

in terms of shifting the DL away from the middle.
yes i understand.
but that is where the pressure can reach the QBs the fastest.
so i would like to see 1-2 a-gap passrushers there reasonably often.
that is the 1 blitz that would get the QB's attention and potentially cause a time out.

for example you can threaten these attacks - and shift between at least 2 or 3 of them during the snap count:
1. tapper - a-gap, jaylon - d-gap where atlanta like to play beasley where he gets a TE/RB to beat, with safety lineup 3 yards off LOS to keep the LT busy/delay blitz
2. double a-gap with tapper and a fast DB who can shoot through the a-gap like a rocket
3. tapper - back to wide 9 with the LT, jaylon - a-gap, with a safety jumping in half way through snap count to threaten the a-gap or b-gap

--- there are plenty more to threaten
if we have a fast OLB, then even more permutations.

They often threaten double A gap blitzes, especially when they're in a 3-man line.

Too much "morphing" failed when Rob Ryan was here. The defense often confused itself.

You have to remember the human element. Some things look great on paper, but football players are not the smartest people you'll meet. In fact, even some of the smarter football players would not be considered smart if they worked in your office.

Marinelli is very cognizant of the mental limitations of players; whereas, Rob Ryan thought he could use complicated schemes regardless of the players that he had or how much practice time they had

The good news is that they showed some new wrinkles in the HOF game. Hopefully that continues.

 

[Alexander]

The 3-4 is more susceptible to OG being free whereas the 4-3 covers them up. If you need me to inform you on why that is I will be more than happy to teach you.

The day I need you to teach me about football, I will go ahead and eat a bullet and just get things over with.

As a result of the above, you need LB that can take on OL blocks. Less so in the 4-3. Sure teams don't run as much but they still do at a high percentage when the base defense is in.

I don't know that Jaylon can play in the 3-4.

Yes, you don't. And that is exactly why I called out your idiotic "we don't have a thumper" comment. Is Ryan Shazier a "thumper"? If he were healthy, he would be the prototypical ILB in today's 3-4 or hybrid D.

He has never played in a 3-4 front and he's not a thumper? He certainly wasn't one at ND.

Modern defenses that use a three man front are not like your dad's 3-4. He would not have to be this "thumper" that quite honestly could be exploited by fast quick backs right in his face in short passing situations.

If Smith is 100%, he can play in any defense.