Recommended Talkin Cowboys 08.05 (nate newton)

[Alexander]

Rice was there as Sapp was on the decline. Sapp never had double digits sacks in TB after Rice got there. He was clearly in decline mode, which was why they brought in Rice--to try and take some pressue off of him.

Anthony McFarland was tasked with getting upfield WITH Sapp, not sitting back and eating blockers so Sapp could get upfield.

I never said a single word about not needing pressure from the outside. All I said was, it is not necessary to define DT's in that way. I said NOTHING about the outside. I said ALL defensive lineman are tasked with getting upfield.

Im not gonna argue with you, once again, about something I never even said, that you decided to pounce on.

If all you stated was that it was a good thing to have interior pressure, no worries, you are absolutely right. But you simply cannot overcompensate inside and just expect things to stay static.

Other teams coach, they have good OLs and they can recognize strength and compensate. You have to have some sort of threat outside. The biggest issue is there is not a healthy end on this roster capable of doing more than Selvie did last year, which is sneak up on teams who reacted to the idea we had Ware. Even a threat of a strong pass rushing end will help. We just do not have that.

 

[texbumthelife]

If all you stated was that it was a good thing to have interior pressure, no worries, you are absolutely right. But you simply cannot overcompensate inside and just expect things to stay static.

Other teams coach, they have good OLs and they can recognize strength and compensate. You have to have some sort of threat outside. The biggest issue is there is not a healthy end on this roster capable of doing more than Selvie did last year, which is sneak up on teams who reacted to the idea we had Ware. Even a threat of a strong pass rushing end will help. We just do not have that.

All I was saying, was that some of the posters around here are trying to lock guys into roles of 1tech and 3tech. Both DT's in this defense are tasked with getting upfield, just like the DE's. Sure they have different gaps, but neither is going to be expected to just take on blockers, like so many posters here seem to be convince.

Just for arguments sake, "Other teams coach, they have good OLs and they can recognize strength and compensate" goes both ways. However, though we may not have a legitimate play maker on the outside, what we do have is a lot of versatility. You may see the same four guys line up in different positions on consecutive snaps. This defense is going to be all about rushing in waves and flexibility.

There is absolutely no use complaining about talent on the outside at this point. We have what we have. No one is going to come in and be a dramatic difference maker on the outside, so you maximize what you have. If Marinelli believes Melton and Crawford on the inside offer the best pass rush, I say go with it.

 

[Idgit]

Well, you answered the whole concern. Selvie and especially Mincey are not in Dunlap's class. In fact, I think Gilberry is pretty close to the pair of them, if not more active but he was not a starter. They had a dynamic end in Michael Johnson last year. That kind of affects things.

Well, our entire defense is not in CIN's class, but that wasn't the question. That's a very good unit that's built around its interior pressure rather than it's ends.

Johnson had 3.5 sacks in 2013 last year, fwiw. And the team let him walk after extending Atkins and Dunlap. Not all that dynamic for the season in question.

 

[Alexander]

All I was saying, was that some of the posters around here are trying to lock guys into roles of 1tech and 3tech.

People do that for a reason. In this defensive scheme, the roles are a little more rigid. The 3-T has been the pressure player and has been in pretty much every incarnation of the scheme from Tampa with Kiffin to Chicago with Lovie Smith.

Just for arguments sake, "Other teams coach, they have good OLs and they can recognize strength and compensate" goes both ways. However, though we may not have a legitimate play maker on the outside, what we do have is a lot of versatility. You may see the same four guys line up in different positions on consecutive snaps. This defense is going to be all about rushing in waves and flexibility.

And people still keep mistaking what the wave concept means. It does not just mean strength in numbers. There has to be talent too. Two average player do not equate to elite and so on.

There is absolutely no use complaining about talent on the outside at this point. We have what we have. No one is going to come in and be a dramatic difference maker on the outside, so you maximize what you have. If Marinelli believes Melton and Crawford on the inside offer the best pass rush, I say go with it.

He can try. But I do not think having some vaunted mix and match DT scheme he has never ever employed anywhere is the best way to go about it. Nor do I think for a second he actually is considering Crawford as a NT/1-T.

 

[Alexander]

Johnson had 3.5 sacks in 2013 last year, fwiw. And the team let him walk after extending Atkins and Dunlap. Not all that dynamic for the season in question.

He had 11 1/2 sacks in 2012. Of course, those 3 1/2 sacks means he is not in the Selvie class. Got it.

 

[Idgit]

He had 11 1/2 sacks in 2012. Of course, those 3 1/2 sacks means he is not in the Selvie class. Got it.

We weren't talking about 2012. We're talking about 2013.

You can just say the 2013 Bengals are actually a decent example of a team building a DL via pressure up the middle but that they're an exception and not the rule and be done with it. Or you can keep changing rules or trying to convince me 3 1/2 = 11 1/2 and throwing in words like 'Selvie' and hope that nobody notices.

 

[Alexander]

We weren't talking about 2012. We're talking about 2013.

There is no "we".

The original poster, tex, brought up the Bengals and by convenience or simple forgetfulness, omitted Johnson. While "talking 2013".

You, on the other hand, tried to steer the entire argument to the "here and now" being the so "fair and balanced" fellow you are, and turned in the 3 1/2 sack two cents.

Cincinnati's defense was not built on two interior rushers. Shall we bring up Peko's 3 sacks in 2013 as evidence of how that was evidenced?

You can just say the 2013 Bengals are actually a decent example of a team building a DL via pressure up the middle but that they're an exception and not the rule and be done with it.

They were built having a penetrating DT like Atkins, a space eater like Peko and exterior pressure. You know, like most successful 4-3 defenses.

Or you can keep changing rules or trying to convince me 3 1/2 = 11 1/2 and throwing in words like 'Selvie' and hope that nobody notices.

If anyone is "changing rules", moving the goalposts or whatever, sorry, that is your deal here. And I threw in Selvie with intent. I was not being subtle. Apparently your evaluation skills operate on one year increments. And by that stilted viewpoint, Selvie must just be a gosh darn great DE.

 

[diehard2294]

Thanks for the recap and I agree about his Romo comment..this offense will need to carry this defense for a while

 

[starfrombirth]

Rice was there as Sapp was on the decline.

I live in Tampa Bay.. so I know a little about this subject: Sapp never really declined until he went to Oakland and changed schemes. Sapp had "Booger" McFarland along side him and the pressure definitely came inside out.

 

[Idgit]

There is no "we".

The original poster, tex, brought up the Bengals and by convenience or simple forgetfulness, omitted Johnson. While "talking 2013".

You, on the other hand, tried to steer the entire argument to the "here and now" being the so "fair and balanced" fellow you are, and turned in the 3 1/2 sack two cents.

Cincinnati's defense was not built on two interior rushers. Shall we bring up Peko's 3 sacks in 2013 as evidence of how that was evidenced?

You can just say the 2013 Bengals are actually a decent example of a team building a DL via pressure up the middle but that they're an exception and not the rule and be done with it.

They were built having a penetrating DT like Atkins, a space eater like Peko and exterior pressure. You know, like most successful 4-3 defenses.



If anyone is "changing rules", moving the goalposts or whatever, sorry, that is your deal here. And I threw in Selvie with intent. I was not being subtle. Apparently your evaluation skills operate on one year increments. And by that stilted viewpoint, Selvie must just be a gosh darn great DE.

You weren't being subtle, or relevant. Imagine our shock.

But your original post on the topic read: "Never seen a successful pass rushing team doing it this way though. It starts outside and the inside is a bonus." To which I replied "What about last year's Bengals?" The rest of this stuff about their 2012 team or George Selvie (whatever he's got to do with anything) is just you tap dancing, badly.

You can have the last word. As long as it's not "Selvie" or "Bass."

 

[texbumthelife]

There is no "we".

The original poster, tex, brought up the Bengals and by convenience or simple forgetfulness, omitted Johnson. While "talking 2013".

You, on the other hand, tried to steer the entire argument to the "here and now" being the so "fair and balanced" fellow you are, and turned in the 3 1/2 sack two cents.

Cincinnati's defense was not built on two interior rushers. Shall we bring up Peko's 3 sacks in 2013 as evidence of how that was evidenced?

You can just say the 2013 Bengals are actually a decent example of a team building a DL via pressure up the middle but that they're an exception and not the rule and be done with it.

They were built having a penetrating DT like Atkins, a space eater like Peko and exterior pressure. You know, like most successful 4-3 defenses.



If anyone is "changing rules", moving the goalposts or whatever, sorry, that is your deal here. And I threw in Selvie with intent. I was not being subtle. Apparently your evaluation skills operate on one year increments. And by that stilted viewpoint, Selvie must just be a gosh darn great DE.

When did I ever bring up the bengals?

 

[texbumthelife]

People do that for a reason. In this defensive scheme, the roles are a little more rigid. The 3-T has been the pressure player and has been in pretty much every incarnation of the scheme from Tampa with Kiffin to Chicago with Lovie Smith.

Every DL in Marinelli's 43 is a pressure player.

And people still keep mistaking what the wave concept means. It does not just mean strength in numbers. There has to be talent too. Two average player do not equate to elite and so on.

I don't know who these "people" are, but i certainly didn't make that mistake. I didn't say this defense would be strong because it will attack in waves, I said attacking in waves would be one of the strengths of this defense. Big difference.

He can try. But I do not think having some vaunted mix and match DT scheme he has never ever employed anywhere is the best way to go about it. Nor do I think for a second he actually is considering Crawford as a NT/1-T.

What "vaunted mix and match" scheme are you talking about? The coaches themselves have mentioned guys on the line, including the interior, will be playing multiple roles/positions on the DL. Some guys moving inside and out, and some guys playing both DT positions.

And it has been employed other places. And recently. Seattle.

 

[burmafrd]

if you can only get consistent pressure up the middle, the offense will compensate. Roll outs, etc. One dimensional rush does not work; we should know that after all the years with DeWare being 75% of our effective pass rush.

 

[texbumthelife]

if you can only get consistent pressure up the middle, the offense will compensate. Roll outs, etc. One dimensional rush does not work; we should know that after all the years with DeWare being 75% of our effective pass rush.

I think they'll manufacture outside pass rush.

 

[ConstantReboot]

Never seen a successful pass rushing team doing it this way though. It starts outside and the inside is a bonus.

Every defense Marinelli has ever been associated that was worth anything had the RDE and 3-T.

This might be a change up to somehow get by until Lawrence gets back, but this was hardly the design initially.

At any rate, unless he is going to do some very unconventional things with the tackles and use a lot of under shifts and stunts, I do not see how this would work for more than a game or two.

Well if the tackles are able to put pressure up the middle there would be no need for shifts and stunts. There is nothing unconventional about D. Tackles just using their speed, quickness and strength to get to the QB. This is a Marinelli defense in which all the 4 linemen is there to rush, not just the RDE and 3T.

 

[Idgit]

When did I ever bring up the bengals?

He confused you with me while replying to me. Because spinning in circles is disorienting.

 

[Idgit]

if you can only get consistent pressure up the middle, the offense will compensate. Roll outs, etc. One dimensional rush does not work; we should know that after all the years with DeWare being 75% of our effective pass rush.

There's a big difference between pressure up the middle and pressure off the edge. Middle is preferable as it moves your QB off his spot and takes less time. Let 'em beat us rolling out.

Of course, pressure from everywhere is preferable. And pressure from hardly anywhere is probably most likely this season.

 

[Doomsay]

• Coleman and Bush showing alot in a little amount of time.

• Brent wouldnt get in the way of any of these younger guys from making the team.

• Maybe wouldve been a good idea to start McClain on PUP. And let him come off when he was ready instead of forcing your body.

• Brent to meet with Goodell on Thursday. No lawyer no spokesman, just him and Goodell and show he has control of his life.

• Theres a chance Brent could go without suspension because he forefeited all that money from retiring. In essence was a 20 game suspension. Because he didnt have to, he couldve waited until the judge ruled and still gotten paid.

• Nate on show, mostly talking bout Brent

• Concerns about Brent. When you have a problem it just doesnt go away. Teammates are going to go out and drink as a group throughout the yr. Is he smart enough to say no, are his teammates smart enough?

• Players dont know about moderation.

• The good thing about Brent is when being asked questions he's thinking before he speaks. Not just blurting things out.

• New talent on the team. These players are good, but they need to learn how to jell.

• The OL is good, but they have to remember who theyre going up against.

• Nate says for me Dallas has 2 players on the DL in the middle. Melton and Crawford. That should be the 3 and the 1.

• Defense is the key right now. they gave up alot. Dallas left the defense buttnaked lol

• Nate: i talked to the DL and told them keep your feet moving. You're practicing on them dummies and ur going 100 miles a hr. Why stop and get blocked? Punch or slap that arm and keep your feet moving and keep the OL off balance.

• OL is great, so technically sound.

• Dallas just doesnt have the playmaker right now on defense. Once these young guys get a grasp of what the coach wants, maybe.

• Can Henry Melton be that type of guy? Yes sir by the 3rd or 4th preseason game once he gets his stamina up. But he cant be shooting to get 30 plays, he needs to be able to give the team atleast 40 plays. Same with Crawford.

Personal note: Newton is in love with Crawford as the 1tech. Broaddus as a big smile.

• You have to have good coaching and not have the injuries that happened last yr this yr.

• When Wilcox hit Dez " im glad he didnt hurt Dez but i screamed, about *** time" loved it

• If this OL jells, you can see something happening with this team this yr. Because if you control the game you take it out of the other teams hand.

• IN critical moments of the game you have to tell Romo this is what we want to run. stick to it and trust.

• When Reggie White came to Dallas he was reduced to a regular player when he went up against Erik Williams.

• Great interview with Nate.

• Last 10 mins was going to be some draft thing Cahill wants to do every week. I wish they would get rid of him. Not only has he made Dc.com a headache to navigate he is just a tool. So i skipped the last segment. That Nate Newton inteview was the meat of the show anyways.

Good stuff - feels like being there

 

[LatinMind]

Nobody want's nobodies by design, but what about last year's Bengals...with Carlos Dunlap (2nd, 2010) and Wallace Gilberry (UDFA, '08) outside and Geno Atkins and Domata Peko in the middle? Dunlap's obviously a good player, but that pressure in CIN works from the outside in.

lol heard a toilet flush.

 

[LatinMind]

Rice was there as Sapp was on the decline. Sapp never had double digits sacks in TB after Rice got there. He was clearly in decline mode, which was why they brought in Rice--to try and take some pressue off of him.

Anthony McFarland was tasked with getting upfield WITH Sapp, not sitting back and eating blockers so Sapp could get upfield.

I never said a single word about not needing pressure from the outside. All I said was, it is not necessary to define DT's in that way. I said NOTHING about the outside. I said ALL defensive lineman are tasked with getting upfield.

Im not gonna argue with you, once again, about something I never even said, that you decided to pounce on.

They talked about Dallas not having a rusher outside. Thats why they need for that rush to come up the middle. Not by design, but by need. Me honestly i see this team going after somebody before the season starts. But theres something to this kid Bush. He might not be an every down guy, but on them passing downs the guy seems to have a knack for getting pressure so far in camp. Now we have to see if that translates into game situations. IMO with teams that play for pressuring the QB it does start inside. You break that pocket the QB will run to your DE most of the time.