Tate's Catch v. Dez's Non-catch Catch

blindzebra

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We're talking about their explanations for the reversal, not their comments about a rewritten rule months after the reversal. Back before they rewrote the rule, the football move was the requirement for completing the catch process. The football move absolutely was relevant, and they both said there wasn't one -- or "enough" of one. If there had been enough of one, the catch would have stood. That's clearly what they both said, and that's how we know the publicly stated reason for the reversal.

You still have not answered this question: If the football move was irrelevant, then why did they both make a point to say that they looked for a football move and didn't see one?

He won't because it proves he is wrong. He will just say it was too confusing so they changed it.

Of course they changed it to the crystal clear upright long enough, which had nothing to do with the old rule because you did not need to be upright to complete the process it could be completed after you started going to the ground.
 

blindzebra

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There is confusion they're not all on the same page when it comes to the rules. We saw that in the Cowboys/Lions playoff game on the interference call that was picked up. One of the refs said it was face guarding when face guarding is foul in college not the NFL.
So, let me get this right...on one hand the entire NFL is confused on the rule and on the other you claim it was the correct call based on the NFL saying so.

Now that is funny.
 

KJJ

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We're talking about their explanations for the reversal, not their comments about a rewritten rule months after the reversal. Back before they rewrote the rule, the football move was the requirement for completing the catch process. The football move absolutely was relevant, and they both said there wasn't one -- or "enough" of one. If there had been enough of one, the catch would have stood. That's clearly what they both said, and that's how we know the publicly stated reason for the reversal.

You still have not answered this question: If the football move was irrelevant, then why did they both make a point to say that they looked for a football move and didn't see one?

They discussed a "football move" but for a receiver to make what they consider a "football move" they felt the receiver has to be "upright" and not "going to the ground" and they determined Dez couldn't make a "football move" due to his momentum taking him to the ground. They look at all aspects of a play to make a determination and once it was determined that Dez was "going to the ground" in their judgement a "football move" couldn't be made. Here's Blandino discussing the play on the Dan Patrick show.

 

Manster68

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If the NFL can screw over the Cowboys, they will - no matter what rules they have to circumvent.

If Dez was wearing a Steeler, Giants, or Patriots helmet, that would have been a catch. Blandino would have worked his way around that.
 

KJJ

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He won't because it proves he is wrong. He will just say it was too confusing so they changed it.

Of course they changed it to the crystal clear upright long enough, which had nothing to do with the old rule because you did not need to be upright to complete the process it could be completed after you started going to the ground.


What was confusing on the Dez play was the term "football move" being brought into it because no one including Blandino could explain exactly what a "football move" is. Blandino was cornered with the term several times in interviews where the play was being shown and was asked how could what Dez was doing not be a "football move?" Blandino said he understands fans are frustrated and confused with it but said it was determined Dez wasn't "upright" and because his momentum was taking him to the ground they felt he couldn't make a "football move." It's the terms "football move" and a "move common to the game" that's raised the ire of fans and everyone else because no one can understand how the league can say Dez didn't perform a "football move" with everything he did on that play.

If the officials determine that a receiver is "going to the ground" anything that receiver does that appears to be a "football move" to the everyday fan goes out the window so they have to hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground regardless if a knee or elbow hits the ground. There's no down by contact if it's determined a receiver is "going to the ground."
 

KJJ

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If the NFL can screw over the Cowboys, they will - no matter what rules they have to circumvent.

If Dez was wearing a Steeler, Giants, or Patriots helmet, that would have been a catch. Blandino would have worked his way around that.

It's comments like that, that show what a waste of time a discussion like this is. It's impossible to have a productive discussion with FANS that have such a strong bias that they think a call that's gone against other teams would only go against the Cowboys. That comment is typical of an armchair FAN. If Blandino came on this board it would be like a swarm of killer bees all over him. lol
 

LandryFan

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If the NFL can screw over the Cowboys, they will - no matter what rules they have to circumvent.

If Dez was wearing a Steeler, Giants, or Patriots helmet, that would have been a catch. Blandino would have worked his way around that.

He wouldn't have to "work his way around that", because it would have been the correct ruling.
 

KJJ

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So, let me get this right...on one hand the entire NFL is confused on the rule and on the other you claim it was the correct call based on the NFL saying so.

Now that is funny.

Wasn't referring to the Dez/Calvin Johnson rule they're all pretty squared away on that rule except for what exactly constitutes a "football move." I was referring to other rules where not all the officials are on the same page. I mentioned the interference penalty in the Cowboys/Lions game that was picked up because the ref that called the foul said it was face guarding when that's a college rule not an NFL rule. You see mistakes all the time during games because some of the refs aren't clear on the rules. On the Dez/Calvin Johnson rule they've been consistent if they deem a receiver is "going to the ground" they must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground or it will be incomplete.
 

BotchedLobotomy

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Has there ever been any other single play in the history of the Cowboys that has had this much staying power?
 

LandryFan

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Has there ever been any other single play in the history of the Cowboys that has had this much staying power?

There may have been if the internet was around when Butch Johnson caught a TD pass against Denver in the SB (that catch would not have stood in today's NFL), or when Drew Pearson caught the "Hail Mary" from Roger (some say he pushed off to make the catch). There have been many that have gone for and against Dallas over the years and would have gotten a lot of prolonged attention if they didn't occur prior to the internet and social media.

Oh, and how can I forget...the PI call against Benny Barnes vs Lynn Swann in the Super Bowl. Guarantee that would have been talked about for a while.
 

LandryFan

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Has there ever been any other single play in the history of the Cowboys that has had this much staying power?

The reason this call has stayed around so long is that the decision to reverse the call occurred on a big stage and brought to light how poorly the catch rule was/is written. That vague rule still exists (although in a very slightly different form), so the NFL will continue to have controversial calls when it comes to these type of catches. Naturally, when these type of catches/non-catches come up...and they do on a routine basis these days...the Dez situation is the measuring stick for comparison. The Dez catch will keep getting dragged out of the closet until the NFL changes the way a catch is determined.
 

KJJ

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Has there ever been any other single play in the history of the Cowboys that has had this much staying power?

There's been plenty of plays that have had more staying power than the Dez play for good and bad reasons but this one will go down as one of the more controversial plays in Cowboys history. Despite decades we still talk about the Hail Mary, Jackie Smith's drop in the SB, the fathom PI call on Benny Barnes in the SB, Danny White's fumble in the 81 NFC title game, Dorsett's 99 yard run and several other plays that have withstood the test of time.
 

blindzebra

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What was confusing on the Dez play was the term "football move" being brought into it because no one including Blandino could explain exactly what a "football move" is. Blandino was cornered with the term several times in interviews where the play was being shown and was asked how could what Dez was doing not be a "football move?" Blandino said he understands fans are frustrated and confused with it but said it was determined Dez wasn't "upright" and because his momentum was taking him to the ground they felt he couldn't make a "football move." It's the terms "football move" and a "move common to the game" that's raised the ire of fans and everyone else because no one can understand how the league can say Dez didn't perform a "football move" with everything he did on that play.

If the officials determine that a receiver is "going to the ground" anything that receiver does that appears to be a "football move" to the everyday fan goes out the window so they have to hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground regardless if a knee or elbow hits the ground. There's no down by contact if it's determined a receiver is "going to the ground."

That is just more crap from Blandino.

When Dez lands his body is facing across the field and back toward the LOS. If he was just falling would one not assume he'd land on his left side or back? But he didn't Dez turned over 90 degrees toward the goal line and took a step. During that step Shields tripped him which either caused the going to the ground or accelerated it. Dez then took the ball from two hands to his dominant hand, why? It isn't part of the catch process. He is falling toward his left side so if he is trying to brace his fall he should be moving the ball to his right hand. Nope Dez moves it to the hand closest to the goal line. And as we see in the case play where bracing and lunging end the catch process Dez braces with his right arm and pushes off his left foot. We know he pushes off because the angle of his knee changes from bent to straight and grass flies up from where his cleats dig in.

Now we have 3 potential acts common to the game here the turn and step, switching the ball, and the brace and lunge/reach. None of which conclusively point to the act of falling. All seem to point to the act of attempting to advance the football. Now we go to what was called on the field, a catch and down by contact. Where is the smoking gun, the conclusive visual evidence that the turn, step, switch to the hand closest to the goal line, brace, push off and reach were not moves common to the game?

There isn't any. All you have is the ball coming loose. Now without conclusive visual evidence that is moot because there are not grounds to overturn the call...but wait, they do overturn it. We already have had a ball clearly and conclusively hit the ground in the first half but what happened? They upheld the Cobb catch...why? There was conclusive visual proof to the contrary. Now we have a play ruled a catch with no conclusive visual evidence to overturn and it is. What links these two calls? They both went against Dallas.

What proceeded this game? A summer party bus story where Blandino is seen partying with Cowboys' ownership. Controversial calls in the Detroit playoff game that publicly seem to favor Dallas. A resurfacing of the party bus story and Blandino getting questioned all week about being in the Boys pocket.

The game starts and you have two replays where Blandino has an opportunity to influence the review, one conclusively shows a non-catch but gets upheld anyway in favor of GB and the second does not have conclusive evidence but gets overturned anyway, again in favor of GB.

After the game we have mixed messages from Blandino and Seretore. Blandino's story changes multiple times from not enough of a football move to a football move wasn't needed...What? If he is head of the officials why is he confused? Why did he and Seretore talk about a football move right after the game if one wasn't needed to complete the 3 part process? Months pass and we hear there will be no rule change just a rewording to simplify things. When it comes out they did change the rule. We saw from the casebook play here:

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

That the 3 part process continues during going to the ground and yet part C) goes to upright long enough. This is a major change because it now makes going to the ground the process instead of an exception when the process isn't met. This play has never been enforced this way in the past except one time...in GB. They altered the rule to fit the overturn and not to clarify the rule.

Blandino went into that GB game with an agenda. He twice influenced calls that both went against Dallas and neither were correct under the existing rules. He then went about making the rule fit the overturn to cover his butt.
 

KJJ

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That is just more crap from Blandino.

When Dez lands his body is facing across the field and back toward the LOS. If he was just falling would one not assume he'd land on his left side or back? But he didn't Dez turned over 90 degrees toward the goal line and took a step. During that step Shields tripped him which either caused the going to the ground or accelerated it. Dez then took the ball from two hands to his dominant hand, why? It isn't part of the catch process. He is falling toward his left side so if he is trying to brace his fall he should be moving the ball to his right hand. Nope Dez moves it to the hand closest to the goal line. And as we see in the case play where bracing and lunging end the catch process Dez braces with his right arm and pushes off his left foot. We know he pushes off because the angle of his knee changes from bent to straight and grass flies up from where his cleats dig in.

Now we have 3 potential acts common to the game here the turn and step, switching the ball, and the brace and lunge/reach. None of which conclusively point to the act of falling. All seem to point to the act of attempting to advance the football. Now we go to what was called on the field, a catch and down by contact. Where is the smoking gun, the conclusive visual evidence that the turn, step, switch to the hand closest to the goal line, brace, push off and reach were not moves common to the game?

There isn't any. All you have is the ball coming loose. Now without conclusive visual evidence that is moot because there are not grounds to overturn the call...but wait, they do overturn it. We already have had a ball clearly and conclusively hit the ground in the first half but what happened? They upheld the Cobb catch...why? There was conclusive visual proof to the contrary. Now we have a play ruled a catch with no conclusive visual evidence to overturn and it is. What links these two calls? They both went against Dallas.

What proceeded this game? A summer party bus story where Blandino is seen partying with Cowboys' ownership. Controversial calls in the Detroit playoff game that publicly seem to favor Dallas. A resurfacing of the party bus story and Blandino getting questioned all week about being in the Boys pocket.

The game starts and you have two replays where Blandino has an opportunity to influence the review, one conclusively shows a non-catch but gets upheld anyway in favor of GB and the second does not have conclusive evidence but gets overturned anyway, again in favor of GB.

After the game we have mixed messages from Blandino and Seretore. Blandino's story changes multiple times from not enough of a football move to a football move wasn't needed...What? If he is head of the officials why is he confused? Why did he and Seretore talk about a football move right after the game if one wasn't needed to complete the 3 part process? Months pass and we hear there will be no rule change just a rewording to simplify things. When it comes out they did change the rule. We saw from the casebook play here:

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

That the 3 part process continues during going to the ground and yet part C) goes to upright long enough. This is a major change because it now makes going to the ground the process instead of an exception when the process isn't met. This play has never been enforced this way in the past except one time...in GB. They altered the rule to fit the overturn and not to clarify the rule.

Blandino went into that GB game with an agenda. He twice influenced calls that both went against Dallas and neither were correct under the existing rules. He then went about making the rule fit the overturn to cover his butt.

Didn't even bother to read that just a waste of time. No one is going to change anyones opinion on this what everyone believed immediately after the play and reversal they'll always believe. This is all just a repeat of what we've been arguing for the past 9 months. Despite all the threads and debate on this topic no ones views have changed we just keep rehashing over the same arguments and having the same disagreements. We're 5 weeks into the 2015 season and some of you refuse to let this go and if the Cowboys end up missing the playoffs it's going to result in even more anger over that call. I'm as disappointed about that ruling as everyone else but I'm at peace with it because I understand the ruling.

It wasn't the call that was bad it's the rule that's bad. It can be tweaked to allow what is clearly a catch to be ruled a catch despite a receiver "going to the ground" and the ball coming loose because of the ground. There's plays where replay clearly shows a receiver has possession like with Dez and Calvin Johnson and those catches should be allowed to stand regardless if the receiver is "going to the ground" and the contact of the ground causes the ball to come loose. On plays where replay can't conclusively tell if a receiver has clear control and possession of the ball THEN they must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground to clearly show they have possession. There's a way to solve some of the issues with these calls but judgement will always be involved.
 
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DandyDon52

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where replay clearly shows a receiver has possession....... thats the key, and if they possess it even for a second or 2 it should be a catch.
Tate had clear possession so that should be a catch, and dez too.
The bad thing on the dez catch was it was not clear it was not a catch, so should not have been overturned
 

KJJ

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Tate had clear possession so that should be a catch, and dez too.
The bad thing on the dez catch was it was not clear it was not a catch, so should not have been overturned

I didn't see clear possession with Tate the ball came out too quick in my opinion to establish control and possession. The call on the field of an int should've never been changed because it wasn't conclusive at least that's how I saw it. I saw clear possession with Dez he just didn't hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground. Under the rule a receiver who's "going to the ground" must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground to have possession. That part of the rule needs to be tweaked.
 

blindzebra

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Didn't even bother to read that just a waste of time. No one is going to change anyones opinion on this what everyone believed immediately after the play and reversal they'll always believe. This is all just a repeat of what we've been arguing for the past 9 months. Despite all the threads and debate on this topic no ones views have changed we just keep rehashing over the same arguments and having the same disagreements. We're 5 weeks into the 2015 season and some of you refuse to let this go and if the Cowboys end up missing the playoffs it's going to result in even more anger over that call. I'm as disappointed about that ruling as everyone else but I'm at peace with it because I understand the ruling.

It wasn't the call that was bad it's the rule that's bad. It can be tweaked to allow what is clearly a catch to be ruled a catch despite a receiver "going to the ground" and the ball coming loose because of the ground. There's plays where replay clearly shows a receiver has possession like with Dez and Calvin Johnson and those catches should be allowed to stand regardless if the receiver is "going to the ground" and the contact of the ground causes the ball to come loose. On plays where replay can't conclusively tell if a receiver has clear control and possession of the ball THEN they must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground to clearly show they have possession. There's a way to solve some of the issues with these calls but judgement will always be involved.

Of course you didn't because it shows proof of what the rule was, how it was misapplied, and how everything since has been reshaping the rule to fit what was done wrong.

I have said it before and I will say it again, show us a rule and casebook play that supports what happened in GB. Something that says that the interpretation had changed since the 2012 Casebook. NOT something after the fact, something in the 2013 or 2014 rules.

Do that and I will be the first to say they got it right by rule, because as it stands now they didn't.
 

KJJ

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Of course you didn't because it shows proof of what the rule was, how it was misapplied, and how everything since has been reshaping the rule to fit what was done wrong.

I have said it before and I will say it again, show us a rule and casebook play that supports what happened in GB. Something that says that the interpretation had changed since the 2012 Casebook. NOT something after the fact, something in the 2013 or 2014 rules.

Do that and I will be the first to say they got it right by rule, because as it stands now they didn't.

It doesn't show proof of anything it's just a waste of time. You been copying and pasting all this the past 9 months you just keep beating a dead horse.
 

percyhoward

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They look at all aspects of a play to make a determination and once it was determined that Dez was "going to the ground" in their judgment a "football move" couldn't be made.
In the segment of the Patrick show that you posted, Blandino again explained that he was looking for evidence of a football move. Go to 1:34 of the video and listen to Blandino's response to Patrick's question about the football move:

"The football move has to be an obvious, overt act. He has to lunge or dive for the goal line. We looked at that, and it's all his momentum, it's all one process. ...We talked about "Was this an act common to the game?" We didn't feel that this was an overt act of gathering himself and lunging for the goal line."

Again, Blandino says that they looked specifically at what Dez did in order to determine whether it was a football move -- an act common to the game.
Why would they do this if it didn't matter? (You still haven't answered.)
 
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