Tate's Catch v. Dez's Non-catch Catch

[LandryFan]

That's exactly what I'm saying.





You're misunderstanding the rule. Dez did everything you said the problem was he was "going to the ground" and that trumps control of the ball, a football move, elbow/knee touching the ground and everything else. When a receiver is "going to the ground" they MUST hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground and Dez didn't despite all the other things he did that would normally make it a legal catch. There's a PROCESS a receiver has to complete when "going to the ground" and Dez didn't complete the process. The reason they called it a catch on the field was because the ref never saw the ball come loose when it contacted the ground it took replay to see it.

You're confused period. What you bolded is what I heard Pereira say weeks after the play I'm relaying what's been said. I'm going by the ever changing explanations from Blandino, Pereira and other experts. Both Blandino and Pereira have been asked to explain the ruling a number of times and their explanations have changed slightly each time to try and better explain the ruling the only thing that's remained consistent in their explanations is that Dez was "going to the ground" therefore he must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground.

You didn't attribute what I bolded to Periera in that explanation. You said: "You're misunderstanding the rule. Dez did everything you said the problem was he was "going to the ground" and that trumps control of the ball, a football move, elbow/knee touching the ground and everything else"...no disclaimer anywhere in there.
I don't get how you can be so steadfast in declaring that FANs no nothing and the "experts" know everything but then say "I'm going by the ever changing explanations from Blandino, Pereira and other experts." If their explanations are "ever changing" (your words, not mine) why would you put your faith in their accuracy?

 

[percyhoward]

I'm confused as to whether going to the ground trumps a football move.

It doesn't. Or at least it didn't when the football move was part 3 of the catch process (before this season). If going to the ground really did trump a football move, they wouldn't have been looking for football moves in all these plays where players were clearly going to the ground.

See Dez 2014 playoffs, and the two plays in this video.

 

[KJJ]

Ah yes fans again...FYI you are a fan too right?

The point is...and you keep ignoring it...upright never existed in the rule until they changed it in 2015. So to use that only weakens your argument. This play happened under the 2014 rules where if you have 2 feet down, control, and have time to or make a move common to the game you are not a receiver you are a runner. Dez had control, Dez had 3 feet, a knee and an elbow down in bounds, Dez turned, stepped, switched the ball, braced, pushed off, and reached...none of which are part of catching the ball, all of which are moves common to the game. DEZ COMPLETED THE THREE STEP CATCH PROCESS AND WAS A RUNNER DOWN BY CONTACT UNDER THE RULES AS THEY EXISTED IN 2014!

A.R. 8.12 GOING TO THE GROUND—COMPLETE PASS First-and-10-on B25. A1 throws a pass to A2 who controls the ball and gets one foot down before he is contacted by B1. He goes to the ground as a result of the contact, gets his second foot down, and with the ball in his right arm, he braces himself at the three-yard line with his left hand and simultaneously lunges forward toward the goal line. When he lands in the end zone, the ball comes out. Ruling: Touchdown Team A. Kickoff A35. The pass is complete. When the receiver hits the ground in the end zone, it is the result of lunging forward after bracing himself at the three-yard line and is not part of the process of the catch. Since the ball crossed the goal line, it is a touchdown. If the ball is short of the goal line, it is a catch, and A2 is down by contact.

You keep saying the league was right because they said so, yet their explanation changed multiple times and required changing the freaking rule to justify the call they made.

And just how did we drag you into it? Did Percy put a gun to your head as I logged you in and clicked on the thread? You are the one that loves to keep it going because that is your MO, join any topic and take the anti-Cowboys stance and keep repeating the same crap over and over and when someone takes offense you call them a stupid FAN.

There is an underside of a bridge somewhere missing you.

I'm a "fan" which means I'm objective and you're a "FAN" which means you see everything with a biased eye. You keep posting the rule but not once in any of the interviews I've seen with Blandino, Pereira or any other expert has the rule been presented to them and asked did the final ruling fit what is stated in the rulebook. I'm not missing anything it's you and the others who keep arguing this call that are missing everything because you're all biased and love arguing this topic. You're not just disagreeing with me you're disagreeing with the league and all the experts who get paid to make these decisions. All of them agreed by RULE the final call on Dez was correct and you keep saying they got it wrong.

 

[Kevinicus]

Both of the bolded parts above are from you, the second one being a part of your response to me in trying to explain why the catch was overturned. Not trying to be mean, but I'm confused as to whether going to the ground trumps a football move.

Let me clear it up for you. If KJJ said it, it's probably wrong. If you point out how he was wrong, he will claim to be talking about something else. If you point out that's not what he was talking about or that he is still wrong, he will call you a "FAN," deflect, act like he is above you, and just say something like "the evidence is in the video." All you need to know.

 

[LandryFan]

It doesn't. Or at least it didn't when the football move was part 3 of the catch process (before this season). If going to the ground really did trump a football move, they wouldn't have been looking for football moves in all these plays where players were clearly going to the ground.

See Dez 2014 playoffs, and the two plays in this video.

I was pointing out that KJJ said in one post that going to the ground trumped a football move (and everything else), but then in another post said he wasn't saying that going to the ground trumped a football move. That's what I was referring to.

 

[blindzebra]

I'm a "fan" which means I'm objective and you're a "FAN" which means you see everything with a biased eye. You keep posting the rule but not once in any of the interviews I've seen with Blandino, Pereira or any other expert has the rule been presented to them and asked was the final ruling fit what is stated in the rulebook. I'm not missing anything it's you and the others who keep arguing this call that are missing everything because you love arguing this topic. You're not just disagreeing with me you're disagreeing with the league and all the experts who get paid to make these decisions. All of them agreed by RULE the final call on Dez was correct and you keep saying they got it wrong.

I posted how the rule was meant to be interpreted under the 2014 rules, directly from the NFL Casebook, the way Blandino and Seretore ignored. You are taking the word of the guy who screwed it up and has changed his story again and again as fact. Anyone with an active brain can see the difference of an actual fact...the NFL's own rule application...and the store being spun to CYA that Blandino is doing.

As for being biased, that would require me saying no he caught it without any supporting evidence. I have read the rule books from 2012-2015, I have read the casebook that covered 2012-2014, and I have given the facts as to how the rule is written and how the NFL intended for it to be applied.

I do have a bias, it is one for the truth. I would be doing the same thing if this were another team and I was in the discussion about a play, why? Because I have officiated, I know how to read rules, I know how to use a casebook, and I know when someone is peeing on my shoe and saying it is raining.

 

[LandryFan]

I posted how the rule was meant to be interpreted under the 2014 rules, directly from the NFL Casebook, the way Blandino and Seretore ignored. You are taking the word of the guy who screwed it up and has changed his story again and again as fact. Anyone with an active brain can see the difference of an actual fact...the NFL's own rule application...and the store being spun to CYA that Blandino is doing.

As for being biased, that would require me saying no he caught it without any supporting evidence. I have read the rule books from 2012-2015, I have read the casebook that covered 2012-2014, and I have given the facts as to how the rule is written and how the NFL intended for it to be applied.

I do have a bias, it is one for the truth. I would be doing the same thing if this were another team and I was in the discussion about a play, why? Because I have officiated, I know how to read rules, I know how to use a casebook, and I know when someone is peeing on my shoe and saying it is raining.

KJJ, himself, said that he was going by the "ever changing explanations" of Blandino, Perierra, et al.
Blandino's story has changed in every explanation from the very beginning. He was/is in CYA mode...big time. In fact, his BS meter is so high that he reminds me a lot of a political spin doctor.

 

[blindzebra]

I was pointing out that KJJ said in one post that going to the ground trumped a football move (and everything else), but then in another post said he wasn't saying that going to the ground trumped a football move. That's what I was referring to.

Ok I will try to clear this up for you.

First don't listen to KJJ, he is wrong and is believing whatever Blandino says.

The way Blandino ruled:

Going to the ground trumps the 3 step process.

Yet in explaining this he kept referring to parts of that process, even though his ruling said it did not matter.

The way the NFL rules intended it to be called:

When a player is going to the ground, with or without contact, he must control the ball through contact with the ground...and here is the key part...unless he completes the 3 step process before he contacts the ground.

This would explain why Blandino kept bringing up a football move and is clearly illustrated in the casebook play I have posted several times.

The catch process DID trump going to the ground in 2014 in 2015 who the hell knows what a catch is because Blandino made the rule even more complex.

 

[LandryFan]

The way the NFL rules intended it to be called:

When a player is going to the ground, with or without contact, he must control the ball through contact with the ground...and here is the key part...unless he completes the 3 step process before he contacts the ground.

This would explain why Blandino kept bringing up a football move and is clearly illustrated in the casebook play I have posted several times.

The catch process DID trump going to the ground in 2014 in 2015 who the hell knows what a catch is because Blandino made the rule even more complex.

That was exactly what I understood to be the rule from the beginning. If the three step process had been completed, the catch was completed and going to the ground did not matter at that point. I don't think anyone can deny that Dez controlled the ball and got two feet down in bounds (steps 1 and 2). Whether he made a "football move" can be debated, but there is no reasonable way that Blandino had cause to overturn the ruling of the on-field official by claiming that evidence showed conclusively that Dez did not make such a move. Right there is where Blandino is/was wrong.

 

[KJJ]

You didn't attribute what I bolded to Periera in that explanation. You said: "You're misunderstanding the rule. Dez did everything you said the problem was he was "going to the ground" and that trumps control of the ball, a football move, elbow/knee touching the ground and everything else"...no disclaimer anywhere in there.
I don't get how you can be so steadfast in declaring that FANs no nothing and the "experts" know everything but then say I'm going by the ever changing explanations from Blandino, Pereira and other experts. If their explanations are "ever changing" (your words, not mine) why would you put your faith in their accuracy?

Most FANS don't know anything because they're biased. They allow their heart and FANDOM to do their posting. If the same exact ruling came down with the Packers on Cobb or one of the other Packers receivers do you think FANS here would be arguing the league got the call wrong? LOL Any ruling that goes against your team FANS are going to cry about it. Everyone learns about the game from playing it as a kid, watching it and listening to those who are or have been apart of the NFL in some capacity as either players, coaches or GMs. All we can do is go by the rules that are written and by the explanations that are given of the rules by those who are paid to know them. I didn't come up with the rules I listen to the experts explain them and relay them and either agree with them or not.

I put a lot more faith in someone who has a high position in the league than some biased armchair FAN sitting with his laptop, a Budweiser and a bowl of doritos who claims if the same play happened to another team the original call would have stood. Listen to some of the ridiculous BS that's posted by FANS on these boards it's ludicrous! They believe there's a conspiracy against the Cowboys even though the team got a PI call picked up against them the previous week vs Detroit that helped the Cowboys win that game. Some of the comments posted by FANS are beyond laughable. Mistakes are made by officials on the field and some of their explanations aren't always correct because they're human and they make mistakes.

No one is perfect and mistakes are going to be made because it's not an easy job. There's a lot of scrutiny with millions of people watching and super slo-mo camera's catching the most minor details on the field. The Dez play was ruled correctly under the RULE it's been confirmed and some of you need to let it go and move on. FANS come on here acting like they know more than the players, coaches. GMs and rules officials just read the posts. Everyone in the league is an idiot according to FANS because think they know it all. LOL

 

[KJJ]

KJJ, himself, said that he was going by the "ever changing explanations" of Blandino, Perierra, et al.
Blandino's story has changed in every explanation from the very beginning. He was/is in CYA mode...big time. In fact, his BS meter is so high that he reminds me a lot of a political spin doctor.

You were coming off earlier like someone respectable no need to make this a personal attack on me. You don't even agree Dez was going to the ground. You aren't anymore clued up on this topic than the others who are arguing with me.

 

[KJJ]

That was exactly what I understood to be the rule from the beginning. If the three step process had been completed, the catch was completed and going to the ground did not matter at that point.

That's not what Blandino said and besides Dez never took 3 steps.

 

[KJJ]

Ok I will try to clear this up for you.

First don't listen to KJJ, he is wrong and is believing whatever Blandino says.

Yeah, everyone should listen to you you're the know it all.

 

[KJJ]

I posted how the rule was meant to be interpreted under the 2014 rules, directly from the NFL Casebook, the way Blandino and Seretore ignored. You are taking the word of the guy who screwed it up and has changed his story again and again as fact. Anyone with an active brain can see the difference of an actual fact...the NFL's own rule application...and the store being spun to CYA that Blandino is doing.

As for being biased, that would require me saying no he caught it without any supporting evidence. I have read the rule books from 2012-2015, I have read the casebook that covered 2012-2014, and I have given the facts as to how the rule is written and how the NFL intended for it to be applied.

I do have a bias, it is one for the truth. I would be doing the same thing if this were another team and I was in the discussion about a play, why? Because I have officiated, I know how to read rules, I know how to use a casebook, and I know when someone is peeing on my shoe and saying it is raining.

If you're interpreting the rule correctly how come in all the interviews Blandino has done he hasn't been confronted with the casebook and how the ruling went down on the field? If you think you got some smoking gun then why hasn't he been confronted with it?

 

[LandryFan]

Most FANS don't know anything because they're biased. They allow their heart and FANDOM to do their posting. If the same exact ruling came down with the Packers on Cobb or one of the other Packers receivers do you think FANS here would be arguing the league got the call wrong? LOL Any ruling that goes against your team FANS are going to cry about it. Everyone learns about the game from playing it as a kid, watching it and listening to those who are or have been apart of the NFL in some capacity as either players, coaches or GMs. All we can do is go by the rules that are written and by the explanations that are given of the rules by those who are paid to know them. I didn't come up with the rules I listen to the experts explain them and relay them and either agree with them or not.

I put a lot more faith in someone who has a high position in the league than some biased armchair FAN sitting with his laptop, a Budweiser and a bowl of doritos who claims if the same play happened to another team the original call would have stood. Listen to some of the ridiculous BS that's posted by FANS on these boards it's ludicrous! They believe there's a conspiracy against the Cowboys even though the team got a PI call picked up against them the previous week vs Detroit that helped the Cowboys win that game. Some of the comments posted by FANS are beyond laughable. Mistakes are made by officials on the field and some of their explanations aren't always correct because they're human and they make mistakes.

No one is perfect and mistakes are going to be made because it's not an easy job. There's a lot of scrutiny with millions of people watching and super slo-mo camera's catching the most minor details on the field. The Dez play was ruled correctly under the RULE it's been confirmed and some of you need to let it go and move on. FANS come on here acting like they know more than the players, coaches. GMs and rules officials just read the posts. Everyone in the league is an idiot according to FANS because think they know it all. LOL

OK, I agree with some of what you say. All fans are biased to some degree, some more than others. To me, this isn't a conspiracy or bias issue. I have never felt that the league has conspired against any team on the field of play (other areas...yes!). This is a debate on whether Blandino was correct in reversing the call on the Dez reception/incompleteion.
You explained to me in an earlier post that "going to the ground" trumped a "football move and everything else". You later seemed to back off of that by saying that you were just going by what you had heard Mike Perierra say in an interview (which, to me, implied that you were mislead by his comments). You also stated that Blandino's and other experts' explanations were "everchanging". Now let me ask you, why would their explanations be "everchanging"? Could it possibly be because they were wrong to begin with and now are trying to cover their *****? Is that even a possibility?
Finally, if "going to the ground" does NOT trump a football move (I'm not sure of your answer because I've understood you to say it does then doesn't), do you honestly feel that Blandino had indisputable evidence that Dez did not commit a football move/move common to the game? If your answer is no, then you agree that Blandino was wrong to reverse the call. If you say yes, then you need new glasses. lol

 

[LandryFan]

You were coming off earlier like someone respectable no need to make this a personal attack on me. You don't even agree Dez was going to the ground. You aren't anymore clued up on this topic than the others who are arguing with me.

I was not meaning any disrespect to you in that post. I was pointing out that even you (who is on the side of the NFL on this one) were stating that the league can't get their story straight...and they can't. If this seemed like a personal attack on you, then I apologize. That certainly wasn't my intent.
As far as Dez going to the ground, I certainly think it's debatable that he would have gone down had he not been contacted by the defender. I have seen enough of Dez's athleticism to say it is not a certainty that he would have fallen down otherwise.
And you could be right, maybe I'm not as clued up on this topic as others and I admit that. I don't consider myself to be anywhere near as knowledgeable as many on this forum. That doesn't keep me from having an opinion, though. I truly hope you have a peaceful day.

 

[LandryFan]

That's not what Blandino said and besides Dez never took 3 steps.

The "three steps" I was referring to were the steps of:
1. Catching (controlling) the ball
2. Getting two feet down in bounds
3. Making a football move/move common to the game

 

[KJJ]

OK, I agree with some of what you say. All fans are biased to some degree, some more than others. To me, this isn't a conspiracy or bias issue. I have never felt that the league has conspired against any team on the field of play (other areas...yes!). This is a debate on whether Blandino was correct in reversing the call on the Dez reception/incompleteion.
You explained to me in an earlier post that "going to the ground" trumped a "football move and everything else". You later seemed to back off of that by saying that you were just going by what you had heard Mike Perierra say in an interview (which, to me, implied that you were mislead by his comments). You also stated that Blandino's and other experts' explanations were "everchanging". Now let me ask you, why would their explanations be "everchanging"? Could it possibly be because they were wrong to begin with and now are trying to cover their *****? Is that even a possibility?
Finally, if "going to the ground" does NOT trump a football move (I'm not sure of your answer because I've understood you to say it does then doesn't), do you honestly feel that Blandino had indisputable evidence that Dez did not commit a football move/move common to the game? If your answer is no, then you agree that Blandino was wrong to reverse the call. If you say yes, then you need new glasses. lol

I never backed off anything and aren't trying to cover anyone's *** you're not comprehending. I explained the rule according to Pereira and made that clear. Blandino's explanations have varied to try and make everyone understand the rule better but he and the rest have remained steadfast that a receiver "who is going to the ground" must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground. There was indisputable visual evidence Dez did not commit a "football move" "according to Blandino" because he said Dez needed to be "upright" and not be going to the ground to make a "football move." You don't even agree that Dez was "going to the ground" so you'll never understand or agree with the ruling.

 

[KJJ]

The "three steps" I was referring to were the steps of:
1. Catching (controlling) the ball
2. Getting two feet down in bounds
3. Making a football move/move common to the game

Gotcha.

 

[KJJ]

I was not meaning any disrespect to you in that post. I was pointing out that even you (who is on the side of the NFL on this one) were stating that the league can't get their story straight...and they can't. If this seemed like a personal attack on you, then I apologize. That certainly wasn't my intent.
As far as Dez going to the ground, I certainly think it's debatable that he would have gone down had he not been contacted by the defender. I have seen enough of Dez's athleticism to say it is not a certainty that he would have fallen down otherwise.
And you could be right, maybe I'm not as clued up on this topic as others and I admit that. I don't consider myself to be anywhere near as knowledgeable as many on this forum. That doesn't keep me from having an opinion, though. I truly hope you have a peaceful day.

Naturally if you interview different experts on the play not everyone's explanation of the rule is going to be exactly the same but they've all remained steadfast that a receiver who is "going to the ground" must hang onto the ball through the contact of the ground. I've watched the play many times and Dez's momentum was CLEARLY taking him to the ground and even as athletic as he is I can't see anyway possible he would have kept his footing because no one can defy gravity. I'm giving you my opinion that's all we can do with this. Everyone has an opinion and no ones opinion is going to change regardless how many more threads we see on this. They all turn into the same argument.