That non-PI call was the play of the game

[MarcusRock]

I think "playing through the back applies" to this case. It was maybe more on Witten's side than back, but I don't think that matters. The principle is that a DB cannot run through a receiver to get position that the receiver has already established. Yes, Witten did beat the DB to the spot, but having done so, the DB either has to find a way to step in front, get side by side for relatively equal position to fight for the ball, or wait until the ball hits the receivers hands to make the contact. I don't think the DB did any of those things, he just ran into a player that was between him and the ball, and did not actually have a play on the ball because Witten had him blocked off.

Yeah, I think that's a stretch. The DB doesn't have to wait for the ball to hit a receiver's hands if he's behind him nor do the rules say so. He has right to try to get a hand in in front of the receiver's hands. Not quite the same play but think Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl. He actually hits the receiver's shoulder before the ball passes by in their collision. He was trying to beat the receiver to the spot and didn't need to care about the route of the receiver even though he came from behind him.

In fact, as I look at the video again, Witten is not even affected so much by the contact (Smith is moreso) and falls down on his own as a result of trying to reverse field for the ball thrown behind him (I have to think that matters) so there wasn't grab and hold restriction. Witten's falling is delayed from when they first make contact so he didn't get pushed down either (Smith did though). Again, the rule is clear that you actually CAN cut off the path of the receiver if you're playing the ball. So you can touch a guy because by the rules, "offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball." Contact is going to happen in that case. If Smith held down one of Witten's hands or hooked him at the waist at the same time, it's PI easy. I think the officials here see this as incidental because both were going for the ball (that went the opposite way of the route). Witten crossing in front is immaterial. Smith could have done a swim move for position and would have been fine doing it that way too as long as he didn't grab or push and he did neither here.

 

[OmerV]

Yeah, I think that's a stretch. The DB doesn't have to wait for the ball to hit a receiver's hands if he's behind him nor do the rules say so. He has right to try to get a hand in in front of the receiver's hands. Not quite the same play but think Malcolm Butler in the Super Bowl. He actually hits the receiver's shoulder before the ball passes by in their collision. He was trying to beat the receiver to the spot and didn't need to care about the route of the receiver even though he came from behind him.

In fact, as I look at the video again, Witten is not even affected so much by the contact (Smith is moreso) and falls down on his own as a result of trying to reverse field for the ball thrown behind him (I have to think that matters) so there wasn't grab and hold restriction. Witten's falling is delayed from when they first make contact so he didn't get pushed down either (Smith did though). Again, the rule is clear that you actually CAN cut off the path of the receiver if you're playing the ball. So you can touch a guy because by the rules, "offensive and defensive receivers have the same right to the path of the ball." Contact is going to happen in that case. If Smith held down one of Witten's hands or hooked him at the waist at the same time, it's PI easy. I think the officials here see this as incidental because both were going for the ball (that went the opposite way of the route). Witten crossing in front is immaterial. Smith could have done a swim move for position and would have been fine doing it that way too as long as he didn't grab or push and he did neither here.

The rules actually do say you can't hit a receiver before the ball arrives. That's what pass interference is. Even if the ball hadn't yet been thrown it was illegal contact since it was beyond 5 yards from the line of scrimmage.

 

[Future]

Because the defender was playing the ball, not Witten. He's allowed to do that.

Lol that doesn't matter.

The "locate the ball" stuff matters for handchecking and incidental contact. You can't just run through players to get to the ball.

 

[xwalker]

So Witten was tackled in the end zone and there was a no call.. that was the play of the game IMO with the feed to Zeke finnally. I know why we didn't challenge it, because the NFL puts in a rule and doesn't enforce it. I mean why put in a challenge rule and not call it fairly. Before someone says push off from Cooper, he broke away not pushed.

Witten was pushing off but using his body instead of hand/arms.

It could almost have been called offensive pass interference.

Witten did a good action job trying to get the penalty which is something other teams often do against the Cowboys. Unfortunately the Refs didn't buy it.

 

[xwalker]

The rules actually do say you can't hit a receiver before the ball arrives. That's what pass interference is. Even if the ball hadn't yet been thrown it was illegal contact since it was beyond 5 yards from the line of scrimmage.

Lol that doesn't matter.

The "locate the ball" stuff matters for handchecking and incidental contact. You can't just run through players to get to the ball.

Witten initiated contact...

 

[MarcusRock]

The rules actually do say you can't hit a receiver before the ball arrives. That's what pass interference is. Even if the ball hadn't yet been thrown it was illegal contact since it was beyond 5 yards from the line of scrimmage.

The rules also say that incidental contact can occur beyond 5 yards and when combined with being able to cut off a route if you're playing the ball I think what Smith did was legal, especially since his contact is not what caused Witten to fall. The ball's placement did. A throw on target actually would have been a TD unless Smith could have gotten a hand around.

 

[dallas72]

So Witten was tackled in the end zone and there was a no call.. that was the play of the game IMO with the feed to Zeke finnally. I know why we didn't challenge it, because the NFL puts in a rule and doesn't enforce it. I mean why put in a challenge rule and not call it fairly. Before someone says push off from Cooper, he broke away not pushed.

You also forgot S Lee almost being pushed down in the end zone for their short TD pass

 

[Kaiser]

Witten initiated contact...

Man, I don't see that. Witten is planting to make his cut when Smith hits him with both arms. Witten was cutting close to Smith but the contact was from Smith.

 

[Kaiser]

Lol that doesn't matter.

The "locate the ball" stuff matters for handchecking and incidental contact. You can't just run through players to get to the ball.

"You are allowed to play the ball".

"The ball was still in the QBs hands"

"Homer!!!"

 

[OmerV]

Witten initiated contact...

We will have to agree to disagree. Witten made a cut that would have taken him away from the DB, and the DB stepped up to make the contact

 

[Kaiser]

since his contact is not what caused Witten to fall. The ball's placement did.

The magic ball that has the same gravitational attraction as Saturn that pushed Witten to the ground. Right after Smith tackled him.

Got it.

 

[OmerV]

Man, I don't see that. Witten is planting to make his cut when Smith hits him with both arms. Witten was cutting close to Smith but the contact was from Smith.

Exactly what I saw. Witten ran at Smith to a point, but made his cut before he got to Smith. If Smith hadn't stepped up into Witten there would have been no contact.

 

[Future]

Witten initiated contact...

Nah, not more than Smith.

And I don't even think it's a penalty, I'm just saying the "he was playing the ball" argument doesn't matter.

 

[MarcusRock]

Exactly what I saw. Witten ran at Smith to a point, but made his cut before he got to Smith. If Smith hadn't stepped up into Witten there would have been no contact.

But Smith doesn't have to stand there and allow Witten to take it easy and stroll on by. He's allowed to pursue towards the ball whether he cuts Witten off or not by the rules. The contact happens because of Smith, yes but Witten also puts 2 hands on Smith's chest and moves him back before they both fall. The important point is that Smith didn't cause Witten's fall. There was no grab or pull-down. Then the ball went sailing the other way. How much that factors in is anyone's guess but I think it's a good no-call.

 

[OmerV]

But Smith doesn't have to stand there and allow Witten to take it easy and stroll on by. He's allowed to pursue towards the ball whether he cuts Witten off or not by the rules. The contact happens because of Smith, yes but Witten also puts 2 hands on Smith's chest and moves him back before they both fall. The important point is that Smith didn't cause Witten's fall. There was no grab or pull-down. Then the ball went sailing the other way. I think it's a good no-call.

No Smith doesn't have to do that, but he didn't step in front of Witten and beat him to the spot though. Had he done that it would have been different. Witten beat him to the spot, and had the established position. As for "letting him stroll on by", what a DB has to do is move into a better position, but a DB cannot physically impede a receiver unless he has the established position.

Be realistic - if a DB can hit a receiver at any time under the guise of playing the ball, then there would be no such thing as pass interference. All a DB would ever have to do is knock a receiver to the ground and then intercept the pass. But that wouldn't be playing the ball, that would be taking out the receiver, then going after the ball, which is very different than just competing for a thrown ball that both players have a chance to catch.

"Playing the Ball" is based on the DB has to having a chance to catch the pass based on his positioning, not on taking out the receiver so the receiver is out of the picture.

 

[xwalker]

Man, I don't see that. Witten is planting to make his cut when Smith hits him with both arms. Witten was cutting close to Smith but the contact was from Smith.

I'm going to make a video of the broadcast replay view which does look a bit more like defensive pi than the coaches film views; although, I'm still not certain that it is defensive pi.

The ball not hitting Witten didn't help the Cowboys case.

 

[MarcusRock]

No Smith doesn't have to do that, but he didn't step in front of Witten and beat him to the spot though. Had he done that it would have been different. Witten beat him to the spot, and had the established position. As for "letting him stroll on by", what a DB has to do is move into a better position, but a DB cannot physically impede a receiver unless he has the established position.

Be realistic - if a DB can hit a receiver at any time under the guise of playing the ball, then there would be no such thing as pass interference. All a DB would ever have to do is knock a receiver to the ground and then intercept the pass. But that wouldn't be playing the ball, that would be taking out the receiver, then going after the ball, which is very different than just competing for a thrown ball that both players have a chance to catch.

"Playing the Ball" is based on the DB has to having a chance to catch the pass based on his positioning, not on taking out the receiver so the receiver is out of the picture.

I guess I'm not seeing the impeding then because while Smith did initiate contact, and Witten DID beat him to the spot, he did not cause Witten to fall and actually looked to try to run with Witten (because Witten was still able to run the route in that direction) to have a shot to get a hand around even though Witten did push him backwards. The ball was off target to the opposite direction of the route. I'm sure you and I have each seen far greater contact and hand play not called.

 

[xwalker]

Man, I don't see that. Witten is planting to make his cut when Smith hits him with both arms. Witten was cutting close to Smith but the contact was from Smith.

Witten extended his hands/arms towards the defender.

The defender gets his arm in front of Witten but pulls it back.

My questions now are:

1. Did the defender slow Witten down?

2. Why did Witten fall to the ground?

 

[Kaiser]

Be realistic - if a DB can hit a receiver at any time under the guise of playing the ball, then there would be no such thing as pass interference.

This guy's entire schtick is that every call is correct and that he is Oh So Smart for calling Dallas fans idiots if they think a call went against them. That's why he can twist himself into knots like this and dream up a HOF TE tripping over his own feet.

 

[Kaiser]

Witten extended his hands/arms towards the defender.

The defender gets his arm in front of Witten but pulls it back.

Thanks for the clips, I watched them several times but I don't see Witten initiating the contact. He does extend his arm but if Smith remains stationary Witten would barely touch him. The physical contact was Smith moving into Witten.