The 3-4 solution

[xwalker]

We are all hoping Taco plays like Hardy or Bosa.
His physical traits are pretty much equal or in some ways little better.

However, if he does not pan out, what do we do.
I think the 3-4 may be the solution.
I would say let marinelli and garrett go (keep the offense/coordinator the same) and go to a blitzing 3-4 and a head coach who is good at game management.

Key advantages:
1. we have most of the players for a 3-4.
2. it is probably easier to draft a Watt OLB type than a top DE.

The transition after the season is surprisingly painless as most of the players are inhouse already:
DT - thornton, Collins, 2nd pick/FA (big 330lb type)
DE - Taco, Irving, Collins, Tcrawford
LOLB - Tapper
ROLB - Jaylon, 1st pick/FA (watt type), Nzeocha
ILB - Jaylon, Lee, Wilson, Nzeocha
DBs - no change

We then draft a LG 3rd round and use the rest of the draft to draft more OLB types.

As a wise man once said (Well @bkight13 said a few minutes ago), NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!

When the Cowboys played the 3-4 there were constant threads of people wanting to switch back to the 4-3.

Parcells claimed finding 3-4 OLBs was easier, but in reality that turned out to be false.

A 3-4 OLB, especially the Strong Side OLB, has to be a 3-tool players. He must be good against the run, good in coverage and good as a pass rusher. Anthony Spencer turned out to be that guy. Fans didn't like him because he was not a top pass rusher, but they didn't really understand the Strong Side OLB vs Weak Side OLB in those defenses. The Cowboys couldn't find anyone else to do that job and ended up Franchising Spencer 2 times consecutively. They had a guy, Victor Butler, that was a decent pass rusher, but he couldn't handle replacing Spencer because he was far interior in pass coverage and run defense and would get confused in regards to when he need to cover, rush or read-and-react against the run.

Finding a guy that can cover and play the run, especially on the strong side is almost mutually exclusive.

Marinelli's defense is a great compromise (At least in theory) between a traditional 4-3 and the 3-4. He shifts the line to the right which puts the SDE head up on the OT but moves the WDE out away from the OT more like a 3-4 OLB. This allows for smaller DEs on the right side. It makes the RDE and the 3-tech DT the top pass rushers instead of both DEs. The SDE is little more like a 3-4 DE; whereas, the WDE is more like a 3-4 OLB. The big difference is that the DEs don't have to play coverage. It's much easier to find a SDE that can play the run than to find a 3-4 SLB that can play the run and play in coverage.

The Cowboys got 6 sacks from Mayowa (6-3, 240) but he likely wouldn't play in the Giants version of the 4-3 when their DEs and DTs are more evenly balanced in their alignments relative to the Center. They need bigger DEs on the right side than the Cowboys need on the right side.

In addition to all of the above, I hate the concept of switching schemes. You've spent years teaching players one scheme and trying to acquire players for that scheme. Now you're throwing all of that away and starting over.

I will concede that Watt might be that Anthony Spencer type 3-4 OLB that is a 3-tool player, but he was a 1st round pick so it's not as if he was easy to acquire.

Another issue with the 3-4 is that on obvious passing downs, they play a 4-man line like a 4-3 defense except their in Nickel which just like a 4-3 in Nickel is technically a 4-2-5 defense. That means player have to basically learn two positions and it means you carry an NT and backup NT that never play in the Nickel defense. The 3-4 alignment is a run defense alignment. It does allow for some deception in terms of which OLB rushes, but as mentioned before, 3-4 teams don't use a 3-4 in obvious passing situations.

The ILBs in a 3-4 need to be bigger because they have to take on more blocks from OLinemen. That means they are on average not as good in coverage as 4-3 LBs.

Either scheme can work, but it is FALSE to say that it's easier to find players for the 3-4.

I would like for Marinelli to mix in some 3-4 concepts on occasion which they did a little with Demontre Moore playing as a stand-up DE on several snaps in the HOF game.

Other things you can do to "trick-up" a 4-3 is to get a pass-rushing SLB. The Falcons do it with Vic Beasley (15.5 sacks in 2016). The Broncos did it originally with Von Miller. The Seahawks did it with Bruce Irving who is now in that role with the Raiders. One of the LBs leaves the field in the Nickel so it's a natural fit for that pass-rushing LB to move to DE in the Nickel. Jaylon would be this player is he gets back to 100% of his college ability.

Marinelli has also "tricked up" things using the 3-man Line. They can go with either 2 or 3 LBs in that alignment. Last year they often used extra Safeties when they playdc a 3-man line and they had good success with it. Marinelli is more likely to "biltz" from this alignment because he can send a LB or DB and still only have 4 players rushing the passer. This allows for disguising where the pressure is coming from similar to a 3-4, but you don't have the issues with personnel like I've explained above about the 3-4. The Marinelli 3-man line is an inverted 3-4. Instead of the LBs being on the outside with the DL close together on the inside, the outside players are DEs and the interior gaps are covered by LBs with a DL in the middle.

The problem with the Cowboys defense has not been the scheme. The problem has been that much more resources have been invested in the Offense and some of the resources that were invested in the defense have not panned out (Randy Gregory, Claiborne, 50M contract for Carr).

 

[Hawkeye0202]

Well, things are not looking good in that regard.

Garrett has an influence. Marinelli should be bouncing off the walls for talent yet until this year, never got a commitment.

I don't see that changing. The current structure is a hurdle.

I can see flailing away at pass rushers to fit an antiquated scheme for a while, especially if the team has even moderate/.500 level success.

We need an elite edge or a dominant 3-T for this system to work.

We have done nothing to address either since Marinelli or even Kiffin has been in charge. You have to have a catalyst.

That IMO is the biggest disappointment with the FO........four years into this system and we are still looking for the elite edge player. We may the 3-T in Collins but w/o an elite edge, he's going to see a ton double team

 

[Alexander]

That IMO is the biggest disappointment with the FO........four years into this system and we are still looking for the elite edge player. We may the 3-T in Collins but w/o an elite edge, he's going to see a ton double team

Finding that elite edge player is hard, especially if you are playing a four man line and don't incorporate pressure schemes very often.

It is like expecting and waiting for the stars to align.

Part of the problem is we spent at least a year thinking we were going "Seatlle-style". Now we are trying to replicate the one successful defense that Marinelli has ever been in charge of. Problem now is finding a Julius Peppers in his prime. Good luck.

 

[Alexander]

The problem with the Cowboys defense has not been the scheme. The problem has been that much more resources have been invested in the Offense and some of the resources that were invested in the defense have not panned out (Randy Gregory, Claiborne, 50M contract for Carr).

A lack of a plan is just as bad as missing on talent. They went all in for Ryan and it took several years to recover from that epic disaster.

That is on the front office. All of them. The Joneses, Garrett. They all bought into the Rob Ryan thing, which was basically looking for cornerbacks and investing huge resources into Carr and Claiborne. That alone set the defense back years because they were committed and could not or would not cut bait and move on.

 

[Idgit]

This thread gave me a fistula.

 

[xwalker]

The 4.93 still needs to be counted as such because its a measurement for athleticism. Thus players that clocks well in the 40s are usually drafted higher. Especially for a player thats supposed to create pressure and produce sacks. I would not draft a DE with a 4.93 grade in the first round. Thus I think we reached.

I always use the better of the time from either the combine or Pro Day because not all players go to the combine. Despite claims otherwise, some players do run slower at their Pro Day, so it's not always a faster time.

Taco
6-6, 277
4.86
1.63

JPP
6-5, 270
4.78
1.68

Greg Hardy
6-4, 281
4.79
1.67

Terrell Suggs
6-3, 262
4.84
10 not listed

Joey Bosa
4.77 (4.86 combine)
1.65

Taco had the best 10 yard time and his 40 was not that far off considering that only Hardy weighed more.

The 270 pound players generally just don't put up forty times like the 250 pound players. DWare was 251 when drafted. That's 26 pounds less than Taco. Von Miller was 246.

Emmitt Smith ran a slow forty but his 10-yard time was as good or better than most players that ran a much faster forty.

Cole Beasley can't touch Brice Butler on deep-speed, but he can cut 1 yard in, 1 yard out and 1 yard back in before Butler can go 3 yards in a straight line.

Travis Frederick ran a terrible forty time but he's the best Center in Football and he plays in a Zone scheme that was thought to require smaller-quicker players.

The best indicator is the player's game footage (Game Tape for Scouts). Taco in not slow in game footage.

Players like Taco, Greg Hardy, Bosa, etc.. don't play the same style as Von Miller. The bigger players with more length rush in more of a straight line to the QB as opposed to looping around the OT like Von Miller. Bosa would be terrible if he tried to play like Von Miller. Marinelli does not like for his DEs to loop wide and deep because it takes them out of position to play run defense. Instead of having them read-and-react like Rob Ryan did with DWare, Marinelli has them rush as if it's a pass and then defend the run on the way. It's a style I prefer. I hated seeing DWare in a read-and-react defense with RR.

 

[waldoputty]

As a wise man once said (Well @bkight13 said a few minutes ago), NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!

When the Cowboys played the 3-4 there were constant threads of people wanting to switch back to the 4-3.

Parcells claimed finding 3-4 OLBs was easier, but in reality that turned out to be false.

A 3-4 OLB, especially the Strong Side OLB, has to be a 3-tool players. He must be good against the run, good in coverage and good as a pass rusher. Anthony Spencer turned out to be that guy. Fans didn't like him because he was not a top pass rusher, but they didn't really understand the Strong Side OLB vs Weak Side OLB in those defenses. The Cowboys couldn't find anyone else to do that job and ended up Franchising Spencer 2 times consecutively. They had a guy, Victor Butler, that was a decent pass rusher, but he couldn't handle replacing Spencer because he was far interior in pass coverage and run defense and would get confused in regards to when he need to cover, rush or read-and-react against the run.

Finding a guy that can cover and play the run, especially on the strong side is almost mutually exclusive.

Marinelli's defense is a great compromise (At least in theory) between a traditional 4-3 and the 3-4. He shifts the line to the right which puts the SDE head up on the OT but moves the WDE out away from the OT more like a 3-4 OLB. This allows for smaller DEs on the right side. It makes the RDE and the 3-tech DT the top pass rushers instead of both DEs. The SDE is little more like a 3-4 DE; whereas, the WDE is more like a 3-4 OLB. The big difference is that the DEs don't have to play coverage. It's much easier to find a SDE that can play the run than to find a 3-4 SLB that can play the run and play in coverage.

The Cowboys got 6 sacks from Mayowa (6-3, 240) but he likely wouldn't play in the Giants version of the 4-3 when their DEs and DTs are more evenly balanced in their alignments relative to the Center. They need bigger DEs on the right side than the Cowboys need on the right side.

In addition to all of the above, I hate the concept of switching schemes. You've spent years teaching players one scheme and trying to acquire players for that scheme. Now you're throwing all of that away and starting over.

I will concede that Watt might be that Anthony Spencer type 3-4 OLB that is a 3-tool player, but he was a 1st round pick so it's not as if he was easy to acquire.

Another issue with the 3-4 is that on obvious passing downs, they play a 4-man line like a 4-3 defense except their in Nickel which just like a 4-3 in Nickel is technically a 4-2-5 defense. That means player have to basically learn two positions and it means you carry an NT and backup NT that never play in the Nickel defense. The 3-4 alignment is a run defense alignment. It does allow for some deception in terms of which OLB rushes, but as mentioned before, 3-4 teams don't use a 3-4 in obvious passing situations.

The ILBs in a 3-4 need to be bigger because they have to take on more blocks from OLinemen. That means they are on average not as good in coverage as 4-3 LBs.

Either scheme can work, but it is FALSE to say that it's easier to find players for the 3-4.

I would like for Marinelli to mix in some 3-4 concepts on occasion which they did a little with Demontre Moore playing as a stand-up DE on several snaps in the HOF game.

Other things you can do to "trick-up" a 4-3 is to get a pass-rushing SLB. The Falcons do it with Vic Beasley (15.5 sacks in 2016). The Broncos did it originally with Von Miller. The Seahawks did it with Bruce Irving who is now in that role with the Raiders. One of the LBs leaves the field in the Nickel so it's a natural fit for that pass-rushing LB to move to DE in the Nickel. Jaylon would be this player is he gets back to 100% of his college ability.

Marinelli has also "tricked up" things using the 3-man Line. They can go with either 2 or 3 LBs in that alignment. Last year they often used extra Safeties when they playdc a 3-man line and they had good success with it. Marinelli is more likely to "biltz" from this alignment because he can send a LB or DB and still only have 4 players rushing the passer. This allows for disguising where the pressure is coming from similar to a 3-4, but you don't have the issues with personnel like I've explained above about the 3-4. The Marinelli 3-man line is an inverted 3-4. Instead of the LBs being on the outside with the DL close together on the inside, the outside players are DEs and the interior gaps are covered by LBs with a DL in the middle.

The problem with the Cowboys defense has not been the scheme. The problem has been that much more resources have been invested in the Offense and some of the resources that were invested in the defense have not panned out (Randy Gregory, Claiborne, 50M contract for Carr).

i dont care if it is 3-4 or 3-3 or even a 2DL front.
the key is to be able to use passrushers that are available in the position in the draft (and FA).
if a SLB could be used in marinelli's scheme, why not draft watt.
we were told watt did not fit marinelli's scheme.
it is probably more reliable to get a passrush from watt as a LB than taco as a DE.
that is especially true in 2017.

 

[waldoputty]

I always use the better of the time from either the combine or Pro Day because not all players go to the combine. Despite claims otherwise, some players do run slower at their Pro Day, so it's not always a faster time.

Taco
6-6, 277
4.86
1.63

JPP
6-5, 270
4.78
1.68

Greg Hardy
6-4, 281
4.79
1.67

Terrell Suggs
6-3, 262
4.84
10 not listed

Joey Bosa
4.77 (4.86 combine)
1.65

Taco had the best 10 yard time and his 40 was not that far off considering that only Hardy weighed more.

The 270 pound players generally just don't put up forty times like the 250 pound players. DWare was 251 when drafted. That's 26 pounds less than Taco. Von Miller was 246.

Emmitt Smith ran a slow forty but his 10-yard time was as good or better than most players that ran a much faster forty.

Cole Beasley can't touch Brice Butler on deep-speed, but he can cut 1 yard in, 1 yard out and 1 yard back in before Butler can go 3 yards in a straight line.

Travis Frederick ran a terrible forty time but he's the best Center in Football and he plays in a Zone scheme that was thought to require smaller-quicker players.

The best indicator is the player's game footage (Game Tape for Scouts). Taco in not slow in game footage.

Players like Taco, Greg Hardy, Bosa, etc.. don't play the same style as Von Miller. The bigger players with more length rush in more of a straight line to the QB as opposed to looping around the OT like Von Miller. Bosa would be terrible if he tried to play like Von Miller. Marinelli does not like for his DEs to loop wide and deep because it takes them out of position to play run defense. Instead of having them read-and-react like Rob Ryan did with DWare, Marinelli has them rush as if it's a pass and then defend the run on the way. It's a style I prefer. I hated seeing DWare in a read-and-react defense with RR.

if taco played like bosa or hardy, we are golden.

 

[gmoney112]

i dont care if it is 3-4 or 3-3 or even a 2DL front.
the key is to be able to use passrushers that are available in the position in the draft (and FA).
if a SLB could be used in marinelli's scheme, why not draft watt.
we were told watt did not fit marinelli's scheme.
it is probably more reliable to get a passrush from watt as a LB than taco as a DE.
that is especially true in 2017.

No one has any idea how good Watt will be, or how he'll compare to Taco in 3 years. Pretending to know otherwise makes people look like complete blowhards and total idiots. DUMB.

Also, it's absolutely amazing to me how many people sign up for a football forum and know absolutely nothing about this league. 1st year DE's look like crap most of the time. Khalil Mack would have been cut by CZ.

People trying to compare a back end of Round 1 player to a HoF pass rusher, Von Miller, or one of the best defensive players in the league in Watt should just throw their computer out of a window and pour bleach in their eyes.

 

[Alexander]

As a wise man once said (Well @bkight13 said a few minutes ago), NNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOO!!!

When the Cowboys played the 3-4 there were constant threads of people wanting to switch back to the 4-3.

Parcells claimed finding 3-4 OLBs was easier, but in reality that turned out to be false.

Wait. He got Ware. Phillips found Spencer, who was at least serviceable. He also spent a low round pick on Erik Walden, who has had a productive NFL career.

Marinelli's defense is a great compromise (At least in theory) between a traditional 4-3 and the 3-4. He shifts the line to the right which puts the SDE head up on the OT but moves the WDE out away from the OT more like a 3-4 OLB. This allows for smaller DEs on the right side. It makes the RDE and the 3-tech DT the top pass rushers instead of both DEs. The SDE is little more like a 3-4 DE; whereas, the WDE is more like a 3-4 OLB. The big difference is that the DEs don't have to play coverage. It's much easier to find a SDE that can play the run than to find a 3-4 SLB that can play the run and play in coverage.

Marinelli plays a shell game. Especially when he does not have an elite talent. He needs a quality 3-T or a Rice or Peppers at end.

End of story.

If he doesn't have that, he has to spend the majority of his time playing smoke and mirrors.

In addition to all of the above, I hate the concept of switching schemes. You've spent years teaching players one scheme and trying to acquire players for that scheme. Now you're throwing all of that away and starting over.

Get the right mind in charge, that switch is not dramatic. We went from 3-4 concepts under Parcells and Phillips and then tried to get cute with Old Man Kiffin and now Marinelli trying little tweaks here and there, and even copying from other schemes, like Seattle, without even knowing what we were doing. Now I see people hailing a return to zone coverage. I guess it is real hard to make up your mind what straw to reach for..

That is one reason I hope Eberflus gets his shot sooner than later. He has had ample opportunity to learn from both sides of the fence.

 

[xwalker]

A lack of a plan is just as bad as missing on talent. They went all in for Ryan and it took several years to recover from that epic disaster.

That is on the front office. All of them. The Joneses, Garrett. They all bought into the Rob Ryan thing, which was basically looking for cornerbacks and investing huge resources into Carr and Claiborne. That alone set the defense back years because they were committed and could not or would not cut bait and move on.

I agree.

They say most addicts have some event that causes them to realize they've hit rock bottom and that event is what causes them to start their path to recovery.

The Carr/Claiborne ordeals seemed like the final straw that cause Jerry to take a step back. If not for the Carr/Claiborne disasters, Jerry would have drafted Manziel because he would not have stepped back at that point.

Like the addict that has some relapses, Jerry has stuck stuck his nose in occasionally since then, but with much less damage (i.e. screwing up a 2nd round pick is better than trading up to #6 overall for a CB that they had not even met with and giving up a high 2nd in the process).

 

[waldoputty]

No one has any idea how good Watt will be, or how he'll compare to Taco in 3 years. Pretending to know otherwise makes people look like complete blowhards and total idiots. DUMB.

Also, it's absolutely amazing to me how many people sign up for a football forum and know absolutely nothing about this league. 1st year DE's look like crap most of the time. Khalil Mack would have been cut by CZ.

no one said watt is going to be good.
the premise of the thread is if taco tapper and others are bad.
i think we all will be comparing taco with harris, takk and watt the entire year.
lets hope taco does well
however if you agree that 1 year DEs often look like crap, would you not agree a 1 year OLB has a better chance to look better in comparison?

 

[gmoney112]

no one said watt is going to be good.
the premise of the thread is if taco tapper and others are bad.
i think we all will be comparing taco with harris, takk and watt the entire year.
lets hope taco does well
however if you agree that 1 year DEs often look like crap, would you not agree a 1 year OLB has a better chance to look better in comparison?

No. I'm including OLB in that, you would know that if you watched the NFL. First year edge rushers generally don't do well. If they do, it's an outlier.

 

[waldoputty]

No. I'm including OLB in that, you would know that if you watched the NFL. First year edge rushers generally don't do well. If they do, it's an outlier.

lol, then what you are saying is we basically off 2017 since we did not sign a good FA edge player.

 

[bayeslife]

because if taco/tapper/etc bombs, then they are not quality talent.
and because 3 DLs are gone anyway so it is much easier to transition painless after the season.

It would take a very poor season to consider them bombs. This is about building a cohesive roster. You can't get all pros at every position.

 

[Alexander]

No one has any idea how good Watt will be, or how he'll compare to Taco in 3 years. Pretending to know otherwise makes people look like complete blowhards and total idiots. DUMB.

Also, it's absolutely amazing to me how many people sign up for a football forum and know absolutely nothing about this league. 1st year DE's look like crap most of the time. Khalil Mack would have been cut by CZ.

In that same respect, you still have blowhards and total idiots on the very same message boards claiming that the 3-4 is a failed scheme. Never mind that time and again, it works and teams running it amazingly seem to play the better defenses in recent years.

People trying to compare a back end of Round 1 player to a HoF pass rusher, Von Miller, or one of the best defensive players in the league in Watt should just throw their computer out of a window and pour bleach in their eyes.

Maybe I am misunderstanding, but how many people are comparing Charlton to Miller or Watt are being earnest?

Sounds to me that you are trying to create a hysterical mindset that doesn't exist so you can smugly pretend you are really just the guy who is even keeled.

 

[gmoney112]

lol, then what you are saying is we basically off 2017 since we did not sign a good FA edge player.

No. We're relying the development of Collins, Irving, Mayowa. Lawrence and Crawford being healthy. Contributions by Tapper, Moore. I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

If you were hedging all your bets on a pick from this year, you should probably just delete your account and give up on watching football. We'll be fortunate to have him take an actual starting spot this season. And that's how it normally works in this league.

 

[waldoputty]

No. We're relying the development of Collins, Irving, Mayowa. Lawrence and Crawford being healthy. Contributions by Tapper, Moore. I feel like I'm forgetting someone.

If you were hedging all your bets on a pick from this year, you should probably just delete your account and give up on watching football. We'll be fortunate to have him take an actual starting spot this season. And that's how it normally works in this league.

well we are relying on dlaw with 2 back surgeries, tapper with the back concern and taco who is the 1st year edge player.
lets hope it works.

 

[Direwolf63]

I always thought the 3-4 defense was better than the 4-3 because the QB does not know where the 4th pass rusher is coming from. The defense can play more games to confuse the QB.

That being said, I do not support a switch now. We went from 4-3 to 3-4 back to 4-3. Enough with the flopping around. Just play defense!

 

[gmoney112]

In that same respect, you still have blowhards and total idiots on the very same message boards claiming that the 3-4 is a failed scheme. Never mind that time and again, it works and teams running it amazingly seem to play the better defenses in recent years.



Maybe I am misunderstanding, but how many people are comparing Charlton to Miller or Watt are being earnest?

Sounds to me that you are trying to create a hysterical mindset that doesn't exist so you can smugly pretend you are really just the guy who is even keeled.

Go through the Taco posts and you'll see plenty of outlandish claims. And yes, he was compared to Ware and Watt. Lol.

You can succeed in both schemes. Neither is a failed scheme. I'm not sure why you made that point in your reply considering i didn't mention it, but anyone claiming the 3-4 is a failed scheme is indeed a blowhard and total idiot. Agreed.