The 3-4 solution

[haleyrules]

I also think it can be done as well. For the price of taco and Crawford we could get 1 war daddy type. And if we hit on another on in the draft we would be set. For example if we moved up and took bosa, our line could have been Oliver Vernon, bosa, Collins,Paea. Not bad.

Not saying that I would have moved up for bosa but just giving an example

Sure, of course, a great defense is a pick or two away snd a trade or FA away. Dallas can have a great defense again. Its entirely possible. I expect it.

 

[plasticman]

There is no such thing as an "edge rusher' in a true 3-4. In fact, the philosophy of pressuring the quarterback is completely different than a 4-3.

In a 4-3 the defensive lenemen typically rush the quarterback. Sometimes there is a blitzer to add additional pressure. In a 3-4, there si always a blitzer, often two and their location is always hidden, the offense doesn't know who it is. the DE's are more like DT's, there job is to stay in the lane and keep the offense honest. The real pressure comes from the uncertainty of where that 4th guy is.

The OLBers are big, fast instinctive guys who make most of the plays, often the offens can't see them because the NT and DE's are creating lane issues. The defensive line often doesn't get impressive stats, their job is to funnel everything to the linebackers.

The Cowboys have nothing like the personnel of a true 3-4 defense. Heck, after Parcells left and Phillips took over, they ran a 3-4 but didn't have the right personnel. The NT was too small, the DE's were smaller and more aggressive and the 4th pass rusher was almost always Ware. The greatest issue with Wade's defense was that it was actually a 4-3 playing out of position.

 

[xwalker]

So help me understand.

Some people think the Charlton pick was necessary because you can't have undersized ends.

Then Mayowa is a solution, while being undersized?

Which is it?

Or is it the case where people are really just grasping at whatever success they can like a log in a raging river?

Benson Mayowa may have got sack numbers but he was hardly a reason any OC stayed awake at night and wondered how on earth he could stop him.

In case you missed it, I was not arguing that undersized players were an issue.

The whole idea about favoring a three man front is the number of options it clears up for rushers and even situational players.

Very 4-3 teams have that luxury. The one team I see is Minnesota who has Hunter coming in and doing it.

My points in this thread or elsewhere about Taco:
People are comparing his speed measurable(s) to players like Ware and Von Miller instead of the more appropriate comparisons of Greg Hardy, Bosa, etc..

In regards to Marineli's scheme,my point is that it's an option to have a smaller player at WDE but not a requirement to have an elite-speed type rusher. The bigger players with length can rush in more of a straight line instead of rushing wide. This is something that Marinelli prefers. It does not mean that a smaller player like Mayowa can't do it, just that there are some advantages for the bigger players with length that offset any lack of elite-speed. Moving the WDE (RDE) more to the outside as compared to the Giants 4-3, is the reason that a player like Mayowa can start there.

The 3-4 is actually a run defense formation. The 3-4 teams go to a 4-man line in obvious passing situations. It is nice that they can disguise which OLB is rushing when their in the 3-4 alignment against the pass; however, it's not a big enough of advantage for 3-4 teams to not go to a 4-man line in obvious passing situations.

The Marinelli 3-man line is the opposite of the 3-4, 3-man line. The DEs are on the outside, not 3-4 OLBs. The better pass coverage 4-3 LBs can blitz from that formation so it has some of the same unpredictable elements of a 3-4 formation. It's best as a pass defense formation vs the 3-4 that is best as a run defense formation.

If they really thought that Watt was going to be a great pass rusher, he was big enough to play WDE in Marinelli's scheme. I think they probably decided that a lot of his success was from being ahead of other college players mentally and from an effort perspective but that he was limited physically (Maybe a little stiff).

 

[Alexander]

The 3-4 is actually a run defense formation. The 3-4 teams go to a 4-man line in obvious passing situations. It is nice that they can disguise which OLB is rushing when their in the 3-4 alignment against the pass; however, it's not a big enough of advantage for 3-4 teams to not go to a 4-man line in obvious passing situations.

That is why I don't understand the rigid expectations.

A defense that can match up well in today's NFL can do a lot to schematically adjust.

I will give Marinelli credit, he is trying to get that done on the back end with safeties who can cover like corners and so on, if that is his design.

But the rush is severely lacking.

It is sad to watch at times. It is almost like he forgot what his specialty is.

Marinelli cut his teeth as the DL guy for Lovie Smith's defenses.

He has yet to establish himself otherwise other than reputation.

 

[xwalker]

That is why I don't understand the rigid expectations.

A defense that can match up well in today's NFL can do a lot to schematically adjust.

I will give Marinelli credit, he is trying to get that done on the back end with safeties who can cover like corners and so on, if that is his design.

But the rush is severely lacking.

It is sad to watch at times. It is almost like he forgot what his specialty is.

Marinelli cut his teeth as the DL guy for Lovie Smith's defenses.

He has yet to establish himself otherwise other than reputation.

They have to be more effective when they blitz, at least until they find that elite DE that everyone wants.

Jaylon could be that elite blitzing LB if he can ever get back to his college level of ability.

There was a rumor they might experiment with Moore at SLB for the purpose of having an extra pass rusher on the field.

Colllins at 3-tech could be a key player. He was quite good last year as a rookie that missed training camp. Marinelli has not had a consistent pass rushing threat at 3-tech since he's been here. McClain/Crawford and some others flashed at the position but nobody has had consistent success.

 

[waldoputty]

They have to be more effective when they blitz, at least until they find that elite DE that everyone wants.

Jaylon could be that elite blitzing LB if he can ever get back to his college level of ability.

There was a rumor they might experiment with Moore at SLB for the purpose of having an extra pass rusher on the field.

Colllins at 3-tech could be a key player. He was quite good last year as a rookie that missed training camp. Marinelli has not had a consistent pass rushing threat at 3-tech since he's been here. McClain/Crawford and some others flashed at the position but nobody has had consistent success.

ideally there is more than 1 option for the blitizing than just jaylon.

 

[ConstantReboot]

I always use the better of the time from either the combine or Pro Day because not all players go to the combine. Despite claims otherwise, some players do run slower at their Pro Day, so it's not always a faster time.

Taco
6-6, 277
4.86
1.63

JPP
6-5, 270
4.78
1.68

Greg Hardy
6-4, 281
4.79
1.67

Terrell Suggs
6-3, 262
4.84
10 not listed

Joey Bosa
4.77 (4.86 combine)
1.65

Taco had the best 10 yard time and his 40 was not that far off considering that only Hardy weighed more.

The 270 pound players generally just don't put up forty times like the 250 pound players. DWare was 251 when drafted. That's 26 pounds less than Taco. Von Miller was 246.

Emmitt Smith ran a slow forty but his 10-yard time was as good or better than most players that ran a much faster forty.

Cole Beasley can't touch Brice Butler on deep-speed, but he can cut 1 yard in, 1 yard out and 1 yard back in before Butler can go 3 yards in a straight line.

Travis Frederick ran a terrible forty time but he's the best Center in Football and he plays in a Zone scheme that was thought to require smaller-quicker players.

The best indicator is the player's game footage (Game Tape for Scouts). Taco in not slow in game footage.

Players like Taco, Greg Hardy, Bosa, etc.. don't play the same style as Von Miller. The bigger players with more length rush in more of a straight line to the QB as opposed to looping around the OT like Von Miller. Bosa would be terrible if he tried to play like Von Miller. Marinelli does not like for his DEs to loop wide and deep because it takes them out of position to play run defense. Instead of having them read-and-react like Rob Ryan did with DWare, Marinelli has them rush as if it's a pass and then defend the run on the way. It's a style I prefer. I hated seeing DWare in a read-and-react defense with RR.

I know what your trying to say. And eventually Taco can become a good player. However, Dallas needed a speed rushing DE. He fits the mold of a strongside DE. Taco is no where near that. I'm not saying he won't become a good player. But all indications are from his stats, that he's not going to be the type of player that Dallas needs. I hope Im wrong.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

this chart is not from me.
my point is most of the good pass rushers are LB, not DE.
it is hard to get a good DE

I never said it was. My point is that the chart is wrong.

 

[Alexander]

They have to be more effective when they blitz, at least until they find that elite DE that everyone wants.

Jaylon could be that elite blitzing LB if he can ever get back to his college level of ability.

There was a rumor they might experiment with Moore at SLB for the purpose of having an extra pass rusher on the field.

Colllins at 3-tech could be a key player. He was quite good last year as a rookie that missed training camp. Marinelli has not had a consistent pass rushing threat at 3-tech since he's been here. McClain/Crawford and some others flashed at the position but nobody has had consistent success.

Why are you talking about blitzing? Marinelli will only do that when he is cornered. It will never be a staple part of his attack that any coordinator from week to week has to worry about.

 

[Alexander]

ideally there is more than 1 option for the blitizing than just jaylon.

Well, I would hope it is not the player actually trying to come back from a catastrophic injury.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

their positions are stated and it is mostly LB
furthermore, von miller and beasley were drafted where in the 1st?

The way we line the SAM up on the line allows a 250 lbs RDE. You going to address that or just continue with your angst over drafting Taco?

 

[waldoputty]

I never said it was. My point is that the chart is wrong.

@Alexander - where did that chart come from?

 

[xwalker]

Why are you talking about blitzing? Marinelli will only do that when he is cornered. It will never be a staple part of his attack that any coordinator from week to week has to worry about.

He called a decent amount of blitzes in some games last season. I feel that Eberflus might tend to push him towards more blitzing if he get a chance.

 

[waldoputty]

The way we line the SAM up on the line allows a 250 lbs RDE. You going to address that or just continue with your angst over drafting Taco?

the most difficult thing to draft is a pass rusher.
the job of the DC is to incorporate available talent in the system by being flexible.
we were told watt is an option because he is an OLB.
if marinelli cannot do it, then he needs to be canned.

this thread is not about taco.
it has only been 1 preseason game so we need to see what taco and tapper do in the upcoming preseason games and months.

the thread is about what to do if all our defensive ends including taco fail us this year.
if all the defensive ends including taco and tapper fail us this year, then obviously we need other pass rushers.

 

[xwalker]

I know what your trying to say. And eventually Taco can become a good player. However, Dallas needed a speed rushing DE. He fits the mold of a strongside DE. Taco is no where near that. I'm not saying he won't become a good player. But all indications are from his stats, that he's not going to be the type of player that Dallas needs. I hope Im wrong.

Greg Hardy, JPP, Suggs are not speed rushing DEs. The current Cowboys would benefit greatly from any of those 3 in their prime. Hardy and JPP are definitely 4-3 RDEs.

 

[xwalker]

ideally there is more than 1 option for the blitizing than just jaylon.

Obviously it won't always be the same player, but they need 1 player that is an elite blitzer. McClain was probably the best blitzer they've had in the Marinelli era.

 

[waldoputty]

Obviously it won't always be the same player, but they need 1 player that is an elite blitzer. McClain was probably the best blitzer they've had in the Marinelli era.

how in your view be watt as another blitzer or anyone else available in the 2017 draft?

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

the most difficult thing to draft a pass rushers.
the job of the DC is to incorporate available talent in the system by being flexible.
we were told watt is an option because he is an OLB.
if marinelli cannot do it, then he needs to be canned.

this thread is not about taco.
it has only been 1 preseason game so we need to see what taco and tapper do in the upcoming preseason games and months.

the thread is about what to do if all our defensive ends including taco fail us this year.
if all the defensive ends including taco and tapper fail us this year, then obviously we need other pass rushers.

Still have not addresses it. Our defense has a spot for the Miller and Mack's.

Your complaint is unfounded.

And you have been on a crusade for months since drafting Charlton. Ostensibly it's about the defense but it all boils down to Taco angst.

Taco is going to fail! Oh noes we should have splurged in FA. BTW, now only two teams are under the floor and they still have 3 years to make up a couple mil.

Now it's Taco is going to fail! Oh noes we should blow up the defense so we can find better pass rushers. Never mind this defense fits the 250 lbs rusher.

 

[waldoputty]

Still have not addresses it. Our defense has a spot for the Miller and Mack's.

Your complaint is unfounded.

And you have been on a crusade for months since drafting Charlton. Ostensibly it's about the defense but it all boils down to Taco angst.

Taco is going to fail! Oh noes we should have splurged in FA. BTW, now only two teams are under the floor and they still have 3 years to make up a couple mil.

Now it's Taco is going to fail! Oh noes we should blow up the defense so we can find better pass rushers.

actually we were TOLD watt and players like him has no role on the defense.
so i dont know what you are talking about.

we dont know if taco will fail or succeed.
dont put words in my month.

i will get to the salary cap calculation when we see where things go.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

actually we were TOLD watt and players like him has no role on the defense.
so i dont know what you are talking about.

we dont know if taco will fail or succeed.
dont put words in my month.

i will get to the salary cap calculation when we see where things go.

And yet they drafted the 240 lbs Randy Gregory. They just didn't like Watt.