The botched coin toss thread

[Kaiser]

That’s actually a pretty interesting comparison and I vividly remember that play. I think they are not quite apples to apples because there is some ambiguity with the Butler play

But the difference is the Butler play hadn't been called in something like 20 years until they called it at an absolutely critical point in a playoff game. Dallas had just made a 20 yard gain and this put them back 10 yards instead.

Like others have pointed out, Dallas was up 21 points at the point the NFL weighed in on this. It was also clear that it was a spirit of the law vs letter of the law thing.

 

[HungryLion]

But the difference is the Butler play hadn't been called in something like 20 years until they called it at an absolutely critical point in a playoff game. Dallas had just made a 20 yard gain and this put them back 10 yards instead.

Like others have pointed out, Dallas was up 21 points at the point the NFL weighed in on this. It was also clear that it was a spirit of the law vs letter of the law thing.

Exactly. The spirit of the law is the best way to describe it. Again the rule simply states that the team winning the toss gets a choice. It doesn’t say their first words uttered is what their choice is.

so Dak clarifying can easily be understood as his choice

 

[BoysForLife]

But the difference is the Butler play hadn't been called in something like 20 years until they called it at an absolutely critical point in a playoff game. Dallas had just made a 20 yard gain and this put them back 10 yards instead.

Like others have pointed out, Dallas was up 21 points at the point the NFL weighed in on this. It was also clear that it was a spirit of the law vs letter of the law thing.

I don't disagree with you.
I think both were incorrect calls.

I don't think the Butler penalty was the right ruling, and I don't think us getting the ball to start 2nd half yesterday was the right ruling.
I think the fact that (as you correctly noted) we were blowing them out, made it easier for the league to "throw us a bone" so to speak.

 

[camelboy]

I went to one of my nephew's games, and they did a coin flip at the start of each half. I was flabbergasted. How in the world is that sportsmanlike?

That's a first too

 

[ottawacowpoke]

this happened to my son's team when he played High School football. They won the toss and chose to kick. The kid didn't use the term "defer". They ended up kicking off to start the game and again to start the 2nd half. In that case I think that the ref was being overly officious - I mean, it's high school football. In this case, no excuse, I think the league made a mistake and the Cowboys should have been forced to kickoff to start the 2nd half.

 

[MarcusRock]

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28308689/nfl-office-steps-amid-confusion-rams-cowboys-coin-toss


that’s fine if you disagree. But the NFL office says the rules allow them to use replay, to address issues of game administration.

so according to them, the rules allow them to use replay to make the right call.

The rules you posted about coin flips. State that the team that wins the flip has choices they can make. It DOES NOT state anywhere in that rule, that the “first words uttered” are what their decision is.

so the nfl, by rule, used replay, to determine that the cowboys in fact did choose to defer. And not to kick.

The rule you posted says the team has the right to choose. It doesn’t say that whatever the first word they say, is what has to happen. You’re assuming that part. The nfl replay officials disagree with your assumption. The replay officials say that Dak’s clarification indicates what he CHOSE. Which is what the rule is. What the team CHOOSES.

A person can misspeak and not be purposefully choosing something.

If a player makes a choice that is an actual listed choice like "kick it" as it says in the rulebook, then how are you supposed to wait to see if they change their mind or actually meant another choice? Does a player who uses bad language towards an official and gets a penalty then get out of it if he says he didn't mean it or it was actually slang for something good, not bad? Lol. Prescott flubbed this and got rescued. Maybe they should now give coin toss winners multiple choice upon winning the coin toss and run down the options a, b, and c.

 

[MarcusRock]

I don't disagree with you.
I think both were incorrect calls.

I don't think the Butler penalty was the right ruling, and I don't think us getting the ball to start 2nd half yesterday was the right ruling.
I think the fact that (as you correctly noted) we were blowing them out, made it easier for the league to "throw us a bone" so to speak.

The Butler penalty was correct though. I remember debating it at the time straight from the rulebook. Further, the league reiterated that it was the correct call. So if we like consistent principles and all, then we'd take their explanation whether it benefits us or not. Today, we love replay and the league. Back in 2015 and 2017, not so much, lol. But principles don't change with the wind, unless they do.

 

[HungryLion]

If a player makes a choice that is an actual listed choice like "kick it" as it says in the rulebook, then how are you supposed to wait to see if they change their mind or actually meant another choice? Does a player who uses bad language towards an official and gets a penalty then get out of it if he says he didn't mean it or it was actually slang for something good, not bad? Lol. Prescott flubbed this and got rescued. Maybe they should now give coin toss winners multiple choice upon winning the coin toss and run down the options a, b, and c.

The ref asked for clarification and Dak said defer to the second half. The ref asked him. Dak didn’t use mind control and make the ref ask him.


The league, by rule, used replay to review it. And determined that Dak CHOSE to defer.

 

[ESisback]

Suppose Walt Anderson doesn't ask for clarification, and the back-and-forth goes like this:

Dak: We want to kick it. Kicking it that way.

Walt: Dallas has elected to kick.
​

He gave Dak a chance to clarify and Dak answered both "yes" and "no". I can't blame Walt Anderson because he was trying to get it right and Dak more-or-less replied, "we're going to defer, but we're also going to kick".

At the same time, I applaud the league for making the right call in overruling Anderson. I don't feel either displayed poor judgement given their respective circumstances. Walt had to make a decision in real-time, and the NFL Brass was given about 90 minutes to review and reconcile that decision. That's exactly how it should work; officials do the best they can and if it turns out to be wrong then their decision is overruled.

Don't really understand the backlash on this one.

It involved Dallas, and negative backlash involving Dallas is comfort food for the masses—a rating$ extravaganza! It had more “legs” than the actual headline—the unworthy Cowboys DESTROYING the favored Rams!

 

[BoysForLife]

The Butler penalty was correct though. I remember debating it at the time straight from the rulebook. Further, the league reiterated that it was the correct call. So if we like consistent principles and all, then we'd take their explanation whether it benefits us or not. Today, we love replay and the league. Back in 2015 and 2017, not so much, lol. But principles don't change with the wind, unless they do.

But you must have missed my posts regarding the coin toss

IMO Dallas messed up and caught a break yesterday

 

[EST_1986]

I wonder if they still would have, had there not been audio evidence of Dak saying "defer".

likely not.

The rule, as stupid as it is, is the rule. Without the audio and just Walk "Look At Me" Andersons version of events, they would have had to stick with it.

 

[OmerV]

I don’t disagree with you and if the transcript is correct it’s apparent from the transcript that, regardless what his “intent” was, Dak made a mistake here

So then my question was why did we end up with the ball to start 2nd half. Intent means nothing. He made a valid choice and we should have been stuck with it. If the other team screwed up like this and still ended up getting the ball for second half the cries of conspiracy would be loud enough to wake the dead LOL

His first words were a mistake, but he clarified before the ref made the official call on who would kick and receive.

Think about something we have seen a number of times over they years. A team has a choice to make on whether to accept or decline a penalty, and the ref is first told one thing, but then someone on the sidelines says they want to go the other way. The ref does not tell the team they have to stick with the first thing they said. In fact, we have actually seen times a ref makes an announcement based on what he was first told, then reverses the announcement.

 

[MarcusRock]

But you must have missed my posts regarding the coin toss

IMO Dallas messed up and caught a break yesterday

I did see that and agree. Was just commenting on the Butler penalty which people love to try to make into some kind of CONSPIRACY! but it was the correct call just like the Dez play was. The post was more commentary on shifting principles based on whether or not your team benefits. Today, it makes sense not to enforce strictly. Back then, it was the league being too strict and technical. Lol.

 

[OmerV]

OMG. There are 3 options at a coin toss, He picked kick and pointed. That is one of the choices.

end of story. You have to say what you mean.

The ref asked him for clarification, and Dak clarified. If the ref didn't want clarification, he shouldn't have asked.

 

[DeaconMoss]

blown out of proportion.

Do you want the ball or do you want to kick? Thats the only choice. Nobody is gonna give the other team the ball twice.

 

[Runwildboys]

AGain, glad we agree. Straw deflection technique and all, glad we agree.
Dak stated a preference to kick. Period.

He did use the word "defer", after being asked twice....so my excellent good friend, not "Period".

 

[HungryLion]

I did see that and agree. Was just commenting on the Butler penalty which people love to try to make into some kind of CONSPIRACY! but it was the correct call just like the Dez play was. The post was more commentary on shifting principles based on whether or not your team benefits. Today, it makes sense not to enforce strictly. Back then, it was the league being too strict and technical. Lol.

I want posting on this board back when that happened.

But actually, it would be a consistent argument to say that back then the league was being too technical, and should have given Brice a warning. And that in this situation they should use common sense and not be overly strict because Dak said “kick” first.

that’s actually a relatively consistent argument.

it would be an inconsistent argument to complain about the Brice call for being too technical and to now say the refs should have enforced Dak using the word kick first before clarifying.

 

[BoltsNHorns]

So you think one possession was the reason the Rams lost? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA, besides, the Rams started off with the ball in the first half. That means the other side should get the ball in the other half.. Did the Rams get the ball in the second half after the Cowboys, or did the NFL somehow give the Cowboys the ball the entire half? The Rams sucked that game. The Cowboys didn't. It happens. It was a confusing, but in the end the right call was made. The Rams benefitted from the officials screwing the Saints last year. Every year teams get screwed over...especially in the playoffs.. Dez Bryant in 2014 ring a bell? The thing is, even if the Rams had got the ball first in the second half, they'd have still lost. Look at the way both teams played. Look at the final score. McVay wanted to have his cake and eat it too. Too bad. Sorry your season is over. That sucks. But it happens.

Yes Cowboys would have won but there was still a sliver of a chance of a possible comeback. That ended when NY change the call without informing the Rams for two quarters and a half. Dak made a mistake, shouldn't have gotten bail out.

 

[OmerV]

blown out of proportion.

Do you want the ball or do you want to kick? Thats the only choice. Nobody is gonna give the other team the ball twice.

The rule should change to reflect that. The word "defer" shouldn't be necessary.

 

[Runwildboys]

blown out of proportion.

Do you want the ball or do you want to kick? Thats the only choice. Nobody is gonna give the other team the ball twice.

Not unless they know there's a 45 mph wind that's going last for the first five minutes of each half.