The defense will be better with Zeke

[Idgit]

I'm thorough and cover all the bases. If you want to make BS statements on the board than I'm wrong all the time start proving it! Here's just an example of what I was saying after week 2 of last season about our backs and running game.

D you think you're just being thorough, that's all that really matters.

I just don't see much point continuing a conversation that's been going on three or four years now where the most basic tenets of the argument you're trying to refute are still getting consistently misrepresented.

 

[percyhoward]

This simply leads to the conclusion that the running game assisted Romo and he did not need to carry the load in the second half of games which led to in the past, costly turnovers at critical times during the game.

What it shows is that "Limiting pass attempts" isn't what made us better.

If all you meant was that running more often keeps defenses honest and makes it easier to pass, I agree. Naturally, in that environment, you'll score more points and have more leads, meaning you won't have to pass to catch up. But the point is that the lower number of pass attempts was an effect of our success -- not a cause.

 

[Rogerthat12]

What it shows is that "Limiting pass attempts" isn't what made us better.

If all you meant was that running more often keeps defenses honest and makes it easier to pass, I agree. Naturally, in that environment, you'll score more points and have more leads, meaning you won't have to pass to catch up. But the point is that the lower number of pass attempts was an effect of our success -- not a cause.

In 2014 total pass attempts were 435 with 34 TD's, 2013 pass attempts 535 with 31 TD's, 2012 were 648 with 28 TD's, 2011 pass attempts were 522 with 31 TD's.


I am saying certainly that running effectively keeps the defense honest and makes passing easier and more effective.

I reject an either/or fallacy, I think the confluence of sound QB play and a dynamic running game makes this team better as in 2014.

What this demonstrates is Romo is even better with a dynamic running attack.

 

[jnday]

Exactly. Now to be picky.......Ramsey and a healthy Smith would go a long way to helping our defense. One more solid draft on the defensive side and we could be all but wrapped up there. You dont find great corners and great pass rushers in the middle to the back of the first round typically.

I agree on pass rushers, but good CBs are available in the top four rounds. CB is one of the worst value positions on the defense. They are dependent on the pass rush. Dallas has tried improving the defense by drafting top CBs and overpaying in free agency for the position, but it has failed time after time. The DL is where the investments needs to take place.

 

[KJJ]

D you think you're just being thorough, that's all that really matters.

I just don't see much point continuing a conversation that's been going on three or four years now where the most basic tenets of the argument you're trying to refute are still getting consistently misrepresented.

You stuck your nose in something and want out before it gets bloodied. Too late you just said you can get everything you want to compete with a mid round back and that was proven wrong last year with a couple of mid round backs that are no longer with the team. You were one of those who argued a combination of backs could make up for Murray's production and you and everyone else who spewed that last summer were wrong! Your comments show just how much you've been influenced by Adam and Percy who both have you dangling on a string.

The ones who played, coached and were GMs in the NFL aren't preaching what they are. They and the Cowboys are on board with me and our draft proved it. Go through the DNA thread prior to the draft, checkout my comments and see if they aren't virtually identical to what Jerry, Stephen and Garrett said as for the reason they drafted Zeke. Many of the things I brought up in that thread they discussed. Even after last season you're still one of those who thinks any back can get it done. All we need is a mid round back to compete according to you. Adam and Percy have you hook, line and sinker. LOL

 

[Idgit]

You stuck your nose in something and want out before it gets bloodied. Too late you just said you can get everything you want to compete with a mid round back and that was proven wrong last year with a couple of mid round backs that are no longer with the team. You were one of those who argued a combination of backs could make up for Murray's production and you and everyone else who spewed that last summer were wrong! Your comments show just how much you've been influenced by Adam and Percy who both have you dangling on a string.

The ones who played, coached and were GMs in the NFL aren't preaching what they are. They and the Cowboys are on board with me and our draft proved it. Go through the DNA thread prior to the draft, checkout my comments and see if they aren't virtually identical to what Jerry, Stephen and Garrett said as for the reason they drafted Zeke. Many of the things I brought up in that thread they discussed. Even after last season you're still one of those who thinks any back can get it done. All we need is a mid round back to compete according to you. Adam and Percy have you hook, line and sinker. LOL

Lol at bloodied, too. We can have the conversation at some point, I suppose, but it's got to start with an understanding of the fundamental point. If you can't get it down, there's no point in my reacting to your haymakers. Adam and percy know what they're talking about.

 

[jnday]

You stuck your nose in something and want out before it gets bloodied. Too late you just said you can get everything you want to compete with a mid round back and that was proven wrong last year with a couple of mid round backs that are no longer with the team. You were one of those who argued a combination of backs could make up for Murray's production and you and everyone else who spewed that last summer were wrong! Your comments show just how much you've been influenced by Adam and Percy who both have you dangling on a string.

The ones who played, coached and were GMs in the NFL aren't preaching what they are. They and the Cowboys are on board with me and our draft proved it. Go through the DNA thread prior to the draft, checkout my comments and see if they aren't virtually identical to what Jerry, Stephen and Garrett said as for the reason they drafted Zeke. Many of the things I brought up in that thread they discussed. Even after last season you're still one of those who thinks any back can get it done. All we need is a mid round back to compete according to you. Adam and Percy have you hook, line and sinker. LOL

I agree with you on most points , but do you realize that you just bragged about thinking the same way that the Jerry does? I don't think I would ever point that out in a public forum.

 

[percyhoward]

In 2014 total pass attempts were 435 with 34 TD's, 2013 pass attempts 535 with 31 TD's, 2012 were 648 with 28 TD's, 2011 pass attempts were 522 with 31 TD's.

You've already been shown a clearer, more specific picture of what happened.

Romo's pass attempts by half, 2011-14
with average halftime margin

2011-13
1st half: 17
trailing by 2 points
2nd half: 19

2014
1st half: 17
leading by 4 points
2nd half: 11

By halftime, there was a 6-point swing in Dallas' favor in 2014. And while we were building those leads, Romo had just as many 1st-half pass attempts as before. When you're winning, you don't pass as often in the 2nd half. That's why those pass attempt totals you posted are so high for those seasons -- it's all because of the 2nd half when we were usually behind.

 

[KJJ]

Lol at bloodied, too. We can have the conversation at some point, I suppose, but it's got to start with an understanding of the fundamental point. If you can't get it down, there's no point in my reacting to your haymakers. Adam and percy know what they're talking about.

It's clear you don't want to have a conversation and if you don't want to have a conversation then stay out of my debates or you'll get dragged in. Percy started a thread claiming our running game was better last year than in 2014 and he's dead WRONG! Adam claimed the running game has little effect on winning and losing and he's dead WRONG! If you want to support those comments go right ahead, let's see you defend them.

 

[KJJ]

I agree with you on most points , but do you realize that you just bragged about thinking the same way that the Jerry does? I don't think I would ever point that out in a public forum.

Jerry didn't think the way I did heading into last season and it came back to bite him. I don't think like Jerry but he starting to think like me at least with his decision to draft Zeke. I don't think Jerry is totally thinking for himself anyway I believe Stephen and Garrett are influencing his thought process. Garrett said prior to Murray walking that the back mattered but it didn't seem to matter to Jerry.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Lol, no. Just wanted to lend my interpretation to the discussion. You've been thrashed on merits. The fact that you won't see it and insist on replying doesn't change anything. Arguments aren't made more valid through persistent repitition.

And again, nobody ever denies the importance of the running game. What's at issue is the importance of spending resources to run more *effectively.* You can get everything you need to compete at RB with a mid round pick.

If Elliot's truly a game breaker, it'll show up in short yardage and the passing game. If not, it was an overallocation of resources. There's no getting around it.

Hiding can be considered a strategy......A strategy which makes the product on the field.....better.

Or you could just put your best assets in drafting for defense.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I agree on pass rushers, but good CBs are available in the top four rounds. CB is one of the worst value positions on the defense. They are dependent on the pass rush. Dallas has tried improving the defense by drafting top CBs and overpaying in free agency for the position, but it has failed time after time. The DL is where the investments needs to take place.

You have to be joking me. QB, CB, LT, Pass Rusher are the premier positions in football. RB is near the bottom in importance. And when you have the best Oline in football it is even less important.

 

[Idgit]

It's clear you don't want to have a conversation and if you don't want to have a conversation then stay out of my debates or you'll get dragged in. Percy started a thread claiming our running game was better last year than in 2014 and he's dead WRONG! Adam claimed the running game has little effect on winning and losing and he's dead WRONG! If you want to support those comments go right ahead, let's see you defend them.

Neither of those guys were wrong, and I think you didn't understand their arguments. Then you went off on tangents re: things that were related, but not the same. I don't want to have those discussion, because there's no point if the fundamental point isn't understood. It leads to trying to shovel the ocean and I have no interest in that. I just wanted to pop in and register my opinion that they were correct, and that the thread was reading like you just didn't understand why.

I'm sure there are posters who'd agree with your take, too, and that's fine. They're free to chime in to that effect. But don't mistake the fact that you reply to every post with the idea that you're actually right about the points you're trying to make. Those two things are not the same.

I'll let you have the last word on it now, so we're not just going round and round. Either way, Elliot's here, now, so we might as well enjoy it.

 

[Idgit]

Or you could just put your best assets in drafting for defense.

I've been the lead dog in the 'let's put our best assets in the defense' for a couple of years now, so you won't find me disagreeing with that.

 

[Rogerthat12]

You've already been shown a clearer, more specific picture of what happened.

Romo's pass attempts by half, 2011-14
with average halftime margin

2011-13
1st half: 17
trailing by 2 points
2nd half: 19

2014
1st half: 17
leading by 4 points
2nd half: 11

By halftime, there was a 6-point swing in Dallas' favor in 2014. And while we were building those leads, Romo had just as many 1st-half pass attempts as before. When you're winning, you don't pass as often in the 2nd half. That's why those pass attempt totals you posted are so high for those seasons -- it's all because of the 2nd half when we were usually behind.

None of that matters ultimately, the overall stats are clear, Romo plays better regardless of quarter or breakdown because the running game assists the passing game, as you rightly admitted it keeps the defense honest and makes passing easier.

Your interpretation of the data is flawed, Dallas has the lead because the running game makes it easier and more effective to pass, this assisted Romo's QB rating as well for the season.

Parsing does nothing to change the overall facts:

In 2014 total pass attempts were 435 with 34 TD's, 2013 pass attempts 535 with 31 TD's, 2012 were 648 with 28 TD's, 2011 pass attempts were 522 with 31 TD's.

The running game certainly assists the passing attack and the overall numbers support this fact.

Ultimately, we will simply have to disagree because interpretation of the data is not going to change for either of us accordingly and is a waste of time.

 

[JoeBoBBY]

Or you could just put your best assets in drafting for defense.

Yeah ...... They did. Last Year. We aren't going to have a top 5 D. Not any time soon. Unless the offense is rolling.

The amount of resources and money we have tied up in the Offense, dictates that we be successful there. If the offense is working....the D will , hopefully, be enough.

We have a young Oline. and they are going to want to get PAID. Along with Dez..... Romo is sucking up a big chunk too...... but even when Romo is gone...we are going to still have an offensive oriented team with the big guys up front...... I would like them to go into FA next year and splurge a little, and get some big boys on the Dline....or even this year with a trade..... they left the D hanging for sure.....But having Zeke was the best move they couldve made....

barring catastrophic injury, I think win the NFCE because of the choice. I don't think I would feel that way, if we went Bosa, or Ramsey.

more then anything....they seem to be committing to the run game. Which I think will pay dividends more then anything else we could do...

 

[percyhoward]

Romo plays better regardless of quarter or breakdown because the running game assists the passing game, as you rightly admitted it keeps the defense honest and makes passing easier.

I didn't "admit" anything, I've been talking about how a running game and a defense would help Romo for a long, long time.

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/40-years-of-bad-teams-with-top-10-qb.293302/

But you are confused if you think it makes him better by limiting his total pass attempts over a season. You're looking at an effect of winning, and thinking it's the cause.

 

[Rogerthat12]

I didn't "admit" anything, I've been talking about how a running game and a defense would help Romo for a long, long time.

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/40-years-of-bad-teams-with-top-10-qb.293302/

But you are confused if you think it makes him better by limiting his total pass attempts over a season. You're looking at an effect of winning, and thinking it's the cause.

Incorrect, the 2014 stats of passing yards 435, touchdown production 34 TD's for Romo, interception ratio 9, 113.2 QB rating all point to a QB that benefits from dynamic running game.

You are confused:

In 2014 total pass attempts were 435 with 34 TD's, 2013 pass attempts 535 with 31 TD's, 2012 were 648 with 28 TD's, 2011 pass attempts were 522 with 31 TD's. They also led the NFL in TOP 32:50 while scoring points!

Never mind the 2,354 rushing yards, I guess they only play a little role in the second half...


Look at the trend in numbers, trying to explain them away or recontexualize them will not change the actual numbers and production.

The effect of winning for the 2014 Cowboys was the confluence of a dynamic running game combined with sound QB play, it is called a balanced attack, the overall limitation in passing yards shows at 435, say hello to balanced attack.

Your critical interpretive error is precisely located in the false presupposition that first half play is only or primarily due to passing without the benefit of the threat and/or the actual running game.

You have it backwards, you are looking at the effect of winning but have failed miserably at understanding the cause, a dynamic running game with a balanced passing attack.

It is this synergy that you have abstracted from the data while ignoring the elephant in the room for your argument, that is first half success also is due in part to the dynamic running game in 2014.

The reason they were winning is because the attack is balanced and for this team and QB in particular, it is a winning recipe.

Go figure the one winning season in recent memory 12-4 for Dallas, also happens to feature a dominant running attack with 2,354 rushing yards and less overall passing yards of 435.

Why do you think they spent the currency to draft Zeke at #4 overall?

We will simply have to agree to disagree!

 

[AdamJT13]

Nfl.com Teams Stats Time of Possession for 2014 season

TOP

Dallas: 32:50
Steelers: 32:24
Seattle: 32.20
Panthers: 32:16
Colts: 31:54

Top five and all are correct, this according to official teams stats for the 2014 season!

Those aren't official. We had two overtime games, and the Steelers had none. The Steelers officially finished No. 1 in time of possession at 32:24. We finished second at 32:22. The official numbers adjust for overtime.

 

[jnday]

You have to be joking me. QB, CB, LT, Pass Rusher are the premier positions in football. RB is near the bottom in importance. And when you have the best Oline in football it is even less important.

I the offense that Dallas runs , a good RB is needed to run the offense at the highest level. If Zeke rushes for 1800 yards and the Cowboys make a deep playoff run, opinions will change in a heart beat . DMac and his three TDs us what an average RB will do in this offense . Zeke will get double digit TDs in his rookie season if he stays healthy. A great rushing attack consist of two components , a great oline and a great RB. I hope that Zeke is the player that everybody says he is. I have expressed my feelings about him and it surprises some posters. Speaking on general terms, E, Smith, T. Davis in Denver, and many more have shown the value in drafting great RBs. How are you going to get the most value out of the oline without a great RB? That would be like having scrub WRs due to Romo being a very good QB.