The divide of the Dallas Cowboy's fandom

plasticman

plasticman

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percyhoward said:
Again, those other teams' "around the 20s" defenses all played better in the postseason. The Cowboys' only two playoff-caliber (read: top 12) defenses played considerably worse in postseason. I say this a lot, but you really do have to look at every play of every game. While focusing on regular season rankings, you're leaving out the postseason performances of 2007 and 2009, just like you did 2014:

Those 2007 defenders who went to the Pro Bowl for their regular season performance didn't stop the defense from playing at the level of 32nd in the playoffs (2.63 ppd, 132.4 dpr). The 2009 defense that shut out their last two opponents in the regular season played like a 26th-ranked defense in the playoffs (1.88 ppd, 109.2 dpr). The 2014 defense, which wasn't as good as those first two but wasn't terrible, played like a terrible defense in the playoffs (2.30 ppd, 103.5 dpr).

You're not accounting for the number of drives in those games. In a typical 11-drive game, 21 points is an average defensive performance. In a slowed-down game where each team only gets 8 drives, it's horrible defense. The rankings below show where that game performance would have ranked for the entire season.

2007 vs Giants
offense 8 drives, 17 points (2.13 ppd - 7th)
defense 8 drives, 21 points (2.63 ppd - 32nd)

2014 at GB
offense 8 drives, 21 points (2.63 ppd - 2nd)
defense 8 drives, 26 points (3.25 ppd - 32nd)

2006 in Seattle was played at a normal pace, and the defense outplayed the offense in that game. But remember, in the regular season that defense (19th in ppd, 21st in dpr) played to the level of a 6- or 7-win team, which is what it would have been without Romo.

This can't be stressed enough: No team has ever won a Super Bowl without either a top 12 defense in the regular season (points allowed), or a defense that played to that level in the postseason.
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Obviously, we could go round and round on this. I mean, you seem to be adopting a different standard. All I was trying to say was that Romo didn't get burdened with a consistently awful defense, never said they were elite. My statement that they were a top ten team was based on yardage simply that and I never meant to imply that being in that position meant they were somehow legendary, just that they weren't awful.

And, again, the proof is right there in the final scores, I mean, it's not lik Tony Romo had to score 50 points to win a playoff game. I made the point that all he had to do was score his regular season average and they would have won three of the four they lost.

However, you seem to imply that Tony should have had an elite defense if he was expected to be successful in the playoffs. Under that criteria, wouldn't that eliminate him as an elite quarterback? You need an elite defense if you are Trent Dilfer.

Well, I enjoyed our fiery debate, I will read any response you have but I'm ready now to go irritate someone else. Have a good one.
 
percyhoward

percyhoward

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plasticman said:
Obviously, we could go round and round on this...And, again, the proof is right there in the final scores...
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I agree that the proof is right there in the final scores, and that's my point.

Again, when you treat an 8-drive game as if it were an 11-drive game, you're assuming that an offense that scores x amount of points on 8 drives would be shut out on three more drives. You're also assuming that a defense that allows x amount of points on 8 drives would hold the opponent scoreless on three more drives. Obviously, that makes no sense.

I appreciate your civility, but before you dismiss yourself from our "debate," I hope you try at least to see the logical fallacy in your part of it. When you understand that, you'll understand that the offensive performances in those games in 2007 and 2014 were both top 7 quality while the defensive performances were both bottom 7 quality. That's a huge point.

Romo has been one of the top 5 passers of his era, whatever his defenses have done. And no, a top 12 defense (or one that plays to that level in the postseason) hardly qualifies as "elite." You're overstating my argument, while I'm telling you that yours ("those defense weren't awful") is wrong. Because, yes, the playoff performances by his three best regular season defenses were exactly that. Awful.
 
xwalker

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Trouty said:
First off, thanks for the kind words, coming from you that's incredibly high praise, X.

When you mention living locally and rubbing elbows with the local folk, that makes perfect sense, and I stand corrected. I thought your original take pertained to local media that people outside of Dallas weren't privy to. I was wrong for assuming that.

Can I ask, do you see S Jones handling this org differently when Jerry is finally gone? I see him giving media interviews and it discourages me. Makes me feel like he's towing the family line of having to be front and center. We need our owners behind the scenes, always. Do you see S Jones hiring a GM when J Jones is gone?
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Stephen is much more of a real GM than Jerry. When Jerry is gone Stephen can stay focused on being GM and let Charlotte and Jr. handle the other stuff; whereas, Jerry is involved in everything.

I don't think Stephen will try to be GM when he is Jerry's age, but will likely do it for some period of time. Stephen has an Engineering degree (i. e. He is very intelligent) and has grown up around Jimmy, Parcells, etc..
 
jnday

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xwalker said:
Stephen is much more of a real GM than Jerry. When Jerry is gone Stephen can stay focused on being GM and let Charlotte and Jr. handle the other stuff; whereas, Jerry is involved in everything.

I don't think Stephen will try to be GM when he is Jerry's age, but will likely do it for some period of time. Stephen has an Engineering degree (i. e. He is very intelligent) and has grown up around Jimmy, Parcells, etc..
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If I need somebody to build a bridge, I will call Stephen. If I
want to build a football team, I will find somebody that is not in the Jones family.
 
xwalker

xwalker

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jnday said:
If I need somebody to build a bridge, I will call Stephen. If I
want to build a football team, I will find somebody that is not in the Jones family.
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Maybe, maybe not.

I think most of the dumb moves in recent years have been due to Jerry's input.

Claiborne - Definitely Jerry.
Gregory - Jerry.
Hardy - Most likely Jerry.
Dez contract - Jerry gave in. Stephen wanted to play hardball.

Very few few people have had the exposure that Stephen has had to NFL operations.

There is not a list with dozens of people that would be qualified to be NFL GMs. It's either somebody that was fired somewhere else or the assistant to a GM somewhere.

You generally can't just get one from college like you can with coaches.
 
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