Twitter: The Fan Draft Board - Broaddus, Cavanaugh, Turner (By Position)

[Shake_Tiller]

Personally, for me Shake, if the scouts get it right (easy to say that, I know), I go for higher ceiling every time with a late first round pick. What was Fred's ceiling when we drafted him? Conversely, to make your point, what was Byron's (he seems to have a very solid floor but limited ceiling, whereas Fred is the best C in the game)?

I like Peppers' tenacity, fight, athleticism, and the fact that when he was slotted as a SS he did pretty damn good. He has position flex which hurt him some. That video posted by @FuzzyLumpkins is awesome (2 or so pages back). It shows what this youngster can do in his limited starts at the position. I actually think his ceiling is quite high.

Question, did Wilcox ever play SS in college? Or was he converted once he hit our camp?

Yep. Wilcox played S as a senior. I do think Peppers has a good deal of upside. In fact, I don't think he would be in the first round conversation if that weren't the case. That said, McDowell's upside is at DL, which trumps SS. I also think McDowell is a bigger gamble. What interests me in all these discussions is how much the game as changed and how people like me can be behind the curve. Consider that when the Cowboys drafted Randy White Landry tried to convert him to G. The Manster! Landry even looked at him at DE and LB. Then he figured, I might as well have a HoF DT. As the game changes, ideas of positional value change. Not really trying to conclude anything. I just find it an intriguing discussion.

 

[Trouty]

Yep. Wilcox played S as a senior. I do think Peppers has a good deal of upside. In fact, I don't think he would be in the first round conversation if that weren't the case. That said, McDowell's upside is at DL, which trumps SS. I also think McDowell is a bigger gamble. What interests me in all these discussions is how much the game as changed and how people like me can be behind the curve. Consider that when the Cowboys drafted Randy White Landry tried to convert him to G. The Manster! Landry even looked at him at DE and LB. Then he figured, I might as well have a HoF DT. As the game changes, ideas of positional value change. Not really trying to conclude anything. I just find it an intriguing discussion.

Ceiling vs floor is incredibly intriguing, Shake. I completely agree.

 

[jterrell]

Actually you don't have to make a comparison to question a comparison. That's some bizarre logic there.

In other words, a poster could say Deshone Kizer's comparison is Big Ben. Using your logic, if someone said that's an insane comparison, they'd be wrong because they didn't make their own comparison. Wut?

I suspect Peppers is gone in the first round............ possibly to us (although we have not scheduled an official visit with him and typically our first rounder has been an official visitor).

No, it's pretty simple.
You are challenging a comparison thus you are comparing the two guys in question... lol.
It's a cop out and rather chicken scratch take on your part to criticize then not other any better example.

Lots of people agree with you he will go round 1 while others with me that it's a bit later and we will see that part soon enough.

 

[Shake_Tiller]

Perhaps this should be a different thread, but here's something else to think about. There is very little chance this happens, but suppose Christian McCaffrey is the last first round player on the Cowboys' board when it is time for them to pick. Again highly unlikely, but hang with me. On the surface, most would say "no way." And I'd tend to say the same thing. But we know they have shown interest in Curtis Samuel, and it has been implied by some in the organization that he could be the pick at 60. He certainly won't be available in Round 3. McCaffrey is a higher rated version of Samuel, at least as a weapon. If they think Samuel is worth a 2, might they think McCaffrey is worth a 1? I don't think this question is as simple as some might argue.

 

[jterrell]

Personally, for me Shake, if the scouts get it right (easy to say that, I know), I go for higher ceiling every time with a late first round pick. What was Fred's ceiling when we drafted him? Conversely, to make your point, what was Byron's (he seems to have a very solid floor but limited ceiling, whereas Fred is the best C in the game)?

I like Peppers' tenacity, fight, athleticism, and the fact that when he was slotted as a SS he did pretty damn good. He has position flex which hurt him some. That video posted by @FuzzyLumpkins is awesome (2 or so pages back). It shows what this youngster can do in his limited starts at the position. I actually think his ceiling is quite high.

Question, did Wilcox ever play SS in college? Or was he converted once he hit our camp?

Yikes Trouty.
TFred was "regarded" with having a far less high ceiling than Byron Jones.
His draft profiles were terrible. Generally round 3, top 100 type guy.

Byron was a record breaking combine athlete with limited safety play and lesser film than his draft grade.
Byron is actually the better comparison to Peppers.

TFred played a solid G/C at Wisconsin, a school well renowned for quality OL coaching but he tested poorly.

1. 
   NFL Network's Mike Mayock's instant reaction: "I had a third-round grade on this guy."
   
   Bleacher Report's Matt Miller's instant reaction: "I hate this pick."
   
   
   

 

[LittleD]

Perhaps this should be a different thread, but here's something else to think about. There is very little chance this happens, but suppose Christian McCaffrey is the last first round player on the Cowboys' board when it is time for them to pick. Again highly unlikely, but hang with me. On the surface, most would say "no way." And I'd tend to say the same thing. But we know they have shown interest in Curtis Samuel, and it has been implied by some in the organization that he could be the pick at 60. He certainly won't be available in Round 3. McCaffrey is a higher rated version of Samuel, at least as a weapon. If they think Samuel is worth a 2, might they think McCaffrey is worth a 1? I don't think this question is as simple as some might argue.

If you listened to Jerry and Stephen, they have suggested that this draft is all about fixing the defense. To actually take an offensive player in the first round, they would have to be skunked on both CB and DE. Just don't think that's possible this year with so many players coming in on the 30 visits. Look for Defense in the first 3 rounds and them maybe a TE as usual.

 

[Sydla]

No, it's pretty simple.
You are challenging a comparison thus you are comparing the two guys in question... lol.
It's a cop out and rather chicken scratch take on your part to criticize then not other any better example.

Lots of people agree with you he will go round 1 while others with me that it's a bit later and we will see that part soon enough.

It's actually simpler than that.

I don't think Wilcox is a good comparison. I go beyond just height and weight and the fact they played multiple positions in college.

Again, to question your comparison does not mean that I then have to come up with my own comparison just to refute your point. That's strange logic. Again, if I compared Trubisky to Brady and you say I am nuts, then you'd be wrong in that assessment because you didn't make your own comparison.

But if you want a comparison, I've seen him likened to Eric Weddle.

 

[Trouty]

Yikes Trouty.
TFred was "regarded" with having a far less high ceiling than Byron Jones.
His draft profiles were terrible. Generally round 3, top 100 type guy.

Byron was a record breaking combine athlete with limited safety play and lesser film than his draft grade.
Byron is actually the better comparison to Peppers.

TFred played a solid G/C at Wisconsin, a school well renowned for quality OL coaching but he tested poorly.

1. 
   NFL Network's Mike Mayock's instant reaction: "I had a third-round grade on this guy."
   
   Bleacher Report's Matt Miller's instant reaction: "I hate this pick."
   
   

That's my point, J. Fred was viewed with a low ceiling and Byron with a high one

 

[Sydla]

Perhaps this should be a different thread, but here's something else to think about. There is very little chance this happens, but suppose Christian McCaffrey is the last first round player on the Cowboys' board when it is time for them to pick. Again highly unlikely, but hang with me. On the surface, most would say "no way." And I'd tend to say the same thing. But we know they have shown interest in Curtis Samuel, and it has been implied by some in the organization that he could be the pick at 60. He certainly won't be available in Round 3. McCaffrey is a higher rated version of Samuel, at least as a weapon. If they think Samuel is worth a 2, might they think McCaffrey is worth a 1? I don't think this question is as simple as some might argue.

No. It's a waste of value as your first round pick would be a Dunbar clone, meaning he's sparingly used with Elliott as your primary back and Beasley as your slot WR. So when you weigh all the factors, you see that despite being a nice player, are you truly getting value out of your first round pick with McCaffery?

Probably not. Taking a Dunbar clone in the 2nd is a little easier to stomach (personally I wouldn't want Samuel in Rd 2 either).

 

[jterrell]

Perhaps this should be a different thread, but here's something else to think about. There is very little chance this happens, but suppose Christian McCaffrey is the last first round player on the Cowboys' board when it is time for them to pick. Again highly unlikely, but hang with me. On the surface, most would say "no way." And I'd tend to say the same thing. But we know they have shown interest in Curtis Samuel, and it has been implied by some in the organization that he could be the pick at 60. He certainly won't be available in Round 3. McCaffrey is a higher rated version of Samuel, at least as a weapon. If they think Samuel is worth a 2, might they think McCaffrey is worth a 1? I don't think this question is as simple as some might argue.

Dallas has shown they are largely immune to drafting for need. They love to take BPA, BUT at 28 it's very likely they are targeting a guy who can start day 1. We have rarely see them pass guys on their own board before for guys a round lower at a position of need.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

that breakdown is the 2nd I've watched by that guy.
the first was when he suggested Myles Jack would be all-world.
so i've now disagreed heavily with both his pieces,
he's an amateur on the internet much like me except of course i did play D1 safety....

You are focusing on one comment that is inflammatory and ignoring all of the factual verifiable takes.

He was playing SAM, way way out of position, without consistent help, because they blitzed a lot, and asked to crash down over and over again to take outside runs becaue they had been Michigan's achilles heel.

You show film of him getting picked off by borderline pass interference rub plays and say he sucks in coverage.

 

[Shake_Tiller]

No. It's a waste of value as your first round pick would be a Dunbar clone, meaning he's sparingly used with Elliott as your primary back and Beasley as your slot WR. So when you weigh all the factors, you see that despite being a nice player, are you truly getting value out of your first round pick with McCaffery?

Probably not. Taking a Dunbar clone in the 2nd is a little easier to stomach (personally I wouldn't want Samuel in Rd 2 either).

I don't necessarily disagree with your take or the jterrell take. I suspect their interest in Samuel, assuming it's real, is that he could be a hybrid, taking the roles of Dunbar, Whitehead and McFadden, though the last might be a stretch. McCaffrey is more plausible as a Dunheadfadden. He could probably touch the ball on offense 15 times or so without cutting into Zeke's time. And he would be some insurance against Zeke having league issues. It's not my favorite alternative, but I don't think it's as wild as some would say.

 

[jterrell]

You are focusing on one comment that is inflammatory and ignoring all of the factual verifiable takes.

He was playing SAM, way way out of position, without consistent help, because they blitzed a lot, and asked to crash down over and over again to take outside runs becaue they had been Michigan's achilles heel.

You show film of him getting picked off by borderline pass interference rub plays and say he sucks in coverage.

Fuzzy, I linked a video of him in coverage about 50 times. He was rubbed like 3 times.
Those he actually handled fairly well because the best part of his game is the physical.
Where he struggles is in OFF coverage. Anytime he's 10 yards off the ball he's looking lost.
He played LB but he also split out to cover the slot guys man for man like a nickel fairly often.
The other video was mostly an excuse fest.

Coverage summation is: Not good in off coverage. Great make up speed but slow to diagnose.
Solid man cover guy with lack of ball instincts.
Can run with guys and will break up on ball to land hard hits.

Michigan kept him within 10 yards of the LOS because that's where he's at his best.

Can he learn the other stuff? I am not sure. But I do know he didn't show on tape he could play any cover 2 or off ball techniques.
And he's 6 foot even so will struggle with 6'5" NFL TEs like Witten.

 

[Plankton]

that's a very fair take.
but you also should note kam played safety 4 years in college and had 6 INTs then went round 5 because he had coverage issues.

i think peppers is an equivalent player at safety to jj wilcox. hard hitting, athletic, position change guy.

Chancellor played cornerback his freshman year at VT.

 

[Plankton]

Sydla, you tell me who Peppers most closely resembles coming out of college?

I think that Donte Whitner is a fair comp. Both had similar backgrounds as cornerbacks who converted to safety in college, though Peppers was moved to a LB/rover type position last year.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Fuzzy, I linked a video of him in coverage about 50 times. He was rubbed like 3 times.
Those he actually handled fairly well because the best part of his game is the physical.
Where he struggles is in OFF coverage. Anytime he's 10 yards off the ball he's looking lost.
He played LB but he also split out to cover the slot guys man for man like a nickel fairly often.
The other video was mostly an excuse fest.

Coverage summation is: Not good in off coverage. Great make up speed but slow to diagnose.
Solid man cover guy with lack of ball instincts.
Can run with guys and will break up on ball to land hard hits.

Michigan kept him within 10 yards of the LOS because that's where he's at his best.

Can he learn the other stuff? I am not sure. But I do know he didn't show on tape he could play any cover 2 or off ball techniques.
And he's 6 foot even so will struggle with 6'5" NFL TEs like Witten.

And again in off coverage he had to handle 2 way breaks without help because they blitz all the time. When he could press he could take away that advantage but you're criticizing him for something that all DBs struggle with.

It's like doing 1v1 drills and preventing the DBS from pressing. They will get toasted every time.

You also did not watch the video I posted because he explains the scheme and personnel situation at Michigan and it's not that Peppers was best close to the los. They needed a speedy SAM to get away with all the blitzing and not get shredded by outside runs. While they had secondary players, they did not have anyone to play that position which was key on their defense. Regardless he would be taking over for Church who was close to the los as our FS as it was.

And if they do pick him I am going to assume that Greg Jackson signed off on being able to coach him. I have a lot of faith in his ability to coach.

 

[gmoney112]

I see their ability to evaluate CB's is as typically terrible as usual.

Awuzie that low is just ignorance. Hard for me to realistically take these into consideration at that point.

 

[negativecreep]

I'm torn on Peppers, is he JJ Wilcox or Darren Woodson? didnt see a lot of Michigan games the last few years, obviously...

 

[gmoney112]

And if they do pick him I am going to assume that Greg Jackson signed off on being able to coach him. I have a lot of faith in his ability to coach.

Agreed. I'm viewing Lewis the same way.

I'm also assuming a Darboh or Butt pick is going to come from his Michigan influence as well.

On another note, Michigan is going to have some good DL, as well as other players, coming out over the next few years. Will be interesting to see the Greg Jackson influence on possible picks.

 

[Deep_Freeze]

Any consideration of Peppers has to come with creativity and flexibility, just in case he's not a fit immediately where we put him.

Unfortunately, our staff isn't exactly known for their creativity.