The Reality About Jerry Jones - He Wins

[Bach]

I question folks who question people's fandom. Just because a person doesn't agree with you doesn't make them any less of a fan than you.

Fans want what is best for the team, but it's ok to disagree about what it would take.

Some are obviously much bigger fans of Jerry than they are of the Cowboys.

 

[Alexander]

We already know Jimmy was a great HC and talent evaluator in Dallas.

It was not just Coach Johnson however. The whole organization, from pro personnel to scouting, was top notch in regards to player acquisition in those days. It was not just a function of either person, Jones and Johnson. We simply had a fundamentally sound operation.

The results of both individuals since point to this fact. Now, why that all happened is open for debate.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Some are obviously much bigger fans of Jerry than they are of the Cowboys.

I don't think that's true re: Jerry. It's all based on point of view. I think people's opinion of Jerry has evolved, simply because they have an open mind.

 

[Alexander]

theebs... Jimmy didn't want Troy Aikman. He wanted to draft Tony Mandarich. Steve Walsh was Jimmy's QB.

We got Aikman because of Ackles, and Jerry. Jerry wanted that pretty boy to sell jerseys. He bought the team saying he'd give Aikman number 12 if he wanted it.

Aikman would have been a Cowboy regardless. I still remember watching Tom Landry approach him when they were at Texas Stadium practicing for the Cotton Bowl versus Arkansas. Verne Lundquist even mentioned during the telecast how it was set in stone. He was the top player in that draft and we needed a QB. It was going to happen either way.

As for Coach Johnson, he did not want Emmitt Smith and really wanted Anthony Thompson. He was all about getting Lamar Lathon, Ray Agnew and James Francis as well.

Again, it was the scouts and personnel departments that got those players just as much if not more that Jerry Jones or Jimmy Johnson. Thank Dick Mansperger, John Wooten, Joe Brodsky or Bob Ackles for some of the great ones we had. At least then the credit would be a little better directed.

It was those individuals not being retained that led to our drafting downfall just as much as Coach Johnson leaving.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I'm not going to defend Jerry in this one but could someone please point me to where BP got this team more wins, or further, into a season than the team has gone without him here.

As I recall his best season was 10-6 and a first round exit. Then he had a 6-10 year and two 9-7 years with another first round playoff exit.

Since he's left we've went 13-3 and 9-7 with a first playoff game exit. How exactly did he have us on a 'winning' track and yet now we're on a track to the basement when we're in exactly the same spot we were with BP.

BP gets credit for taking us out of those 5-11 years but this idea that we'd be winning more with him here now is completely unfounded. We've won no more, and no less, than we did when he was here.

 

[jterrell]

Umm the last star bp or jimmy drafted. Do you really have to ask that?

Howbout Demarcus ware, jason witten, t-new, marion barber, Tony Romo. Those are the skill positions. WIth parcells here they were replenished. Before parcells Jerry traded up to draft quincy carter and made horrendous defensive end picks in the first round.

So now TE is a skill position?

And do I have to remind you BP wanted to draft Marcus Spears instead of Demarcus Ware but only relented when we got the 2nd first round pick????

Tony Romo was undrafted. If Aikman was luck, Romo was the virgin birth.

Who drafted Bobby Carpenter? Who drafted Anthony Fasano? Who signed Ryan Young?

BP did the EXACT same thing Jerry does, he overruled the draft board at times and it bit him as it always does.

 

[Bach]

It was not just Coach Johnson however. The whole organization, from pro personnel to scouting, was top notch in regards to player acquisition in those days. It was not just a function of either person, Jones and Johnson. We simply had a fundamentally sound operation.

The results of both individuals since point to this fact. Now, why that all happened is open for debate.

I agree that Jimmy had a great staff and scouting dept. around him with men like Ackles and Wooten. Jimmy ran the draft room with those men. Jerry on the other hand is nothing but a fake.

 

[TellerMorrow34]

And yet he has won as much as anyone outside New England where they wouldn't dream of adding a team wrecking WR or having a QB who dates starlets....

LOL!

Nice.

Aikman would have been a Cowboy regardless. I still remember watching Tom Landry approach him when they were at Texas Stadium practicing for the Cotton Bowl versus Arkansas. Verne Lundquist even mentioned during the telecast how it was set in stone. He was the top player in that draft and we needed a QB. It was going to happen either way.

As for Coach Johnson, he did not want Emmitt Smith and really wanted Anthony Thompson. He was all about getting Ray Agnew and James Francis as well.

Again, it was the scouts and personnel departments that got those players just as much if not more that Jerry Jones or Jimmy Johnson. Thank Dick Mansperger, John Wooten, Joe Brodsky or Bob Ackles for some of the great ones we had. At least then the credit would be a little better directed.

It was those individuals not being retained that led to our drafting downfall just as much as Coach Johnson leaving.

Exactly. Like I've said before I give Jimmy a ton of credit, I give Jerry due credit, but this frankly silly idea from some people who like to puff Jimmy up into some genius is hilarious. People act today as if Jimmy never made any mistakes and was never talked out of making any bad player decisions.

Your post right there highlights beautifully just how much trouble this team would have been in if there weren't people around to make sure Jimmy didn't just pick whoever he wanted.

Sadly, for the Dolphins, that's the Jimmy they got. The one who didn't have anyone around him, apparently, to reign him in and he didn't do nearly as good. Of course I'll also cut him the break that he dealt with the Salary cap in Miami, for the first time as well.

 

[Bach]

I don't think that's true re: Jerry. It's all based on point of view. I think people's opinion of Jerry has evolved, simply because they have an open mind.

I don't agree with that. If one truly had an open mind then one would be able to see Jerry for what he is, not what they hope or want to believe. You'd have to reach far to get around his record, or lack thereof, since he parted ways with Jimmy.

 

[speedkilz88]

I agree that Jerry relied and Lacewell. Just like he relied on Jimmy and then BP/Ireland. That's the point, Jerry isn't a 'football man', he just gave himself a title. And when he goes out and makes decisions, especially in FA or with trades, he often overpays and passes it off as him being a risktaker. It's all B.S.

With personnel the one hope we do have is that Lacewell has been gone. Last years draft was very good, but I wouldn't exactly call it "sans BP and all his cronies" since Ireland didn't leave til after the season and the college players were already evaluated by him prior to him leaving.

That said, I have hope for Ciskowski and if Jerry listens to the football men in the organization then we should be fine when it comes to the draft.

Unfortunately even with better personnel, Jerry sabotages and poisons it by hiring weaker coaches, undermining him and controlling the staff and bringing the circus to town. Jerry having to be the face of the organization and keep them in the headlines only hinders the team. Until that changes, if it ever does, then we'll likely to continue coming up short. And if by chance the talent starts to dwindle then any chance we have goes out the window.

Ireland didn't evaluate the players. He collected the data from the area scouts. He left before the draft board was set-up which was his most important job. That fell to Ciskowski and I'm sure others had input as well.

 

[jterrell]

Aikman would have been a Cowboy regardless. I still remember watching Tom Landry approach him when they were at Texas Stadium practicing for the Cotton Bowl versus Arkansas. Verne Lundquist even mentioned during the telecast how it was set in stone. He was the top player in that draft and we needed a QB. It was going to happen either way.

As for Coach Johnson, he did not want Emmitt Smith and really wanted Anthony Thompson. He was all about getting Lamar Lathon, Ray Agnew and James Francis as well.

Again, it was the scouts and personnel departments that got those players just as much if not more that Jerry Jones or Jimmy Johnson. Thank Dick Mansperger, John Wooten, Joe Brodsky or Bob Ackles for some of the great ones we had. At least then the credit would be a little better directed.

It was those individuals not being retained that led to our drafting downfall just as much as Coach Johnson leaving.

Very true and I have tried to hand credit to those folks I could remember off the top of my head

Jimmy was overruled on Mandarich because Ackles was extremely high on Aikman and Jerry saw dollar signs. Jimmy himself is the one that notes that in his autobiography and tells how he got into tropical fish to connect to Aikman once he realized what he had with him and then he jettisoned Walsh for draft picks.

 

[jterrell]

I agree that Jerry relied and Lacewell. Just like he relied on Jimmy and then BP/Ireland. That's the point, Jerry isn't a 'football man', he just gave himself a title. And when he goes out and makes decisions, especially in FA or with trades, he often overpays and passes it off as him being a risktaker. It's all B.S.

With personnel the one hope we do have is that Lacewell has been gone. Last years draft was very good, but I wouldn't exactly call it "sans BP and all his cronies" since Ireland didn't leave til after the season and the college players were already evaluated by him prior to him leaving.

That said, I have hope for Ciskowski and if Jerry listens to the football men in the organization then we should be fine when it comes to the draft.

Unfortunately even with better personnel, Jerry sabotages and poisons it by hiring weaker coaches, undermining him and controlling the staff and bringing the circus to town. Jerry having to be the face of the organization and keep them in the headlines only hinders the team. Until that changes, if it ever does, then we'll likely to continue coming up short. And if by chance the talent starts to dwindle then any chance we have goes out the window.

Now to me those are completely legit gripes

 

[TellerMorrow34]

I don't agree with that. If one truly had an open mind then one would be able to see Jerry for what he is, not what they hope or want to believe. You'd have to reach far to get around his record, or lack thereof, since he parted ways with Jimmy.

So then for people to be open minded enough means they have to see things the way you do or they're not being open minded enough? That's how it works.

Hey, look, the sky is puke green. Don't agree with me? Then you're not open minded enough.


The only thing I don't get, with Jerry, is why anyone thinks he'll ever be as good as he was with Jimmy. It's not going to happen. Neither were, or probably ever will be, as good without the other.

Will Jerry ever win another Superbowl without Jimmy, or his players, quite possibly not. I'm not holding my breath that he's just going to get it another one, it just won't keep me from watching the team or rooting for them to do just that, despite who the owner is and what he does.

 

[theebs]

So now TE is a skill position?

And do I have to remind you BP wanted to draft Marcus Spears instead of Demarcus Ware but only relented when we got the 2nd first round pick????

Tony Romo was undrafted. If Aikman was luck, Romo was the virgin birth.

Who drafted Bobby Carpenter? Who drafted Anthony Fasano? Who signed Ryan Young?

BP did the EXACT same thing Jerry does, he overruled the draft board at times and it bit him as it always does.

WRONG.

Brian broaddus brokedown exactly what happened at the draft in 05. He said parcells wanted merriman, but jerry and stephen had to convince him to draft ware, mostly stephen because of how hard the postons were to work with.

the marcus spears thing is a myth and brian broaddus put that to rest.

Carpenter was a mistake, even though he was He played better under parcells at the end of 06 than he ever has.

and signing ryan young was a good signing. He was cheap and he knew the system with his time with the jets, we had the number 1 offense in the league until week 8 or whatever in 03. Young got injured and the line started to fall apart and so did the offense. There was nothing wrong with that signing and it is odd that you brought it up seeing that the dopes jerry put on that line, I believe solomon page rings a bell.

Yes Romo was luck, never said it wasnt. But it takes some smarts to get lucky and the front office and coaching staff that PARCELLS put together recognized his talent and then developed it. Jerry on the other hand traded draft picks for drew henson and then forced him on parcells and we know how that turned out.

Really, your going to have to do much better than this.

Oh and in the 2000's yes To me TIght end is very much a skill position. And I wonder if it were up to jerry which tight end he would have taken in 03, LJ SMith the athletic tight end with wr type of build and skills or the former defensive end who is big and slow in witten? I will let you determine that for yourself.

 

[Bach]

Now to me those are completely legit gripes

At least we agree on that.

And as for the Jimmy/Jerry deal, I agree with Alexander that it was Jimmy, Ackles, Wooten, etc. I know it wasn't Jimmy all by himself, but in the context of the Jimmy/Jerry discussions Jimmy was the main catalyst and he did control the draft room and was the main person in charge of trades and personnel, even though he didn't do all the leg work by himself and Jerry 'signed off' on the decisions.

 

[jterrell]

I agree that Jimmy had a great staff and scouting dept. around him with men like Ackles and Wooten. Jimmy ran the draft room with those men. Jerry on the other hand is nothing but a fake.

This is the thing bro and why we disagree so strongly here.

You are just a bit factually off.

Ackles was hired by Tex Schramm not Jimmy or Jerry.

Jerry fired him because he didn't want Mansberger fired and replied by that dufus Lacewell.

Jimmy NEVER ran the personnel side of things, instead he overruled them and coaches had a huge say in who got drafted. Jimmy trusted his position coaches more than Ackles or anyone else.

Jerry's idiocy was siding with Jimmy all that time then when Jimmy left he had no real personnel department in place just his homeboy Lacewell.

 

[WoodysGirl]

I don't agree with that. If one truly had an open mind then one would be able to see Jerry for what he is, not what they hope or want to believe. You'd have to reach far to get around his record, or lack thereof, since he parted ways with Jimmy.

Well I knew we were going to disagree, so I'm not surprised there. Because if one has an open mind, then one doesn't just hold onto past glory or past failures as proof. He or should look at what is going on today and then compare ALL of it. Not just pick and choose.

All that said, it doesn't make one less of a fan in that regard. On Sundays we're still rooting for the same team.

 

[Alexander]

To clear the air and educate everyone, I suggest this article be required reading:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/Commentary/Columns/2002/buchsbaum083002.htm

It is from the late great Joel Buchsbaum and it paints exactly what the picture was like in regards to these drafts in question. To me, too many people paint it as an either/or and then the pro-Jones faction thinks it has vindication by pointing at Coach Johnson's performance in Miami as "proof". It completely ignores how fine the operation was to begin with.

The facts speak for themselves. No matter who anyone believes was most responsible for our drafting success before the night that will live in infamy, it clear how Jones proceeded thereafter with the approach to the draft was ignorant and reckless.

 

[bsheeern]

I agree that Jimmy had a great staff and scouting dept. around him with men like Ackles and Wooten. Jimmy ran the draft room with those men. Jerry on the other hand is nothing but a fake.

Its been well documented that Jimmy had his flaws as well when it came to drafting. He wanted lots of Miami players that had seen their best years and got overuled several times.
Jimmy and Jerry are both genius in my mind. They will both go down in football history as two men who have changed the game in many ways. With that being said they both have serious flaws as well.

The grass is always greener.....I'll take Jerry Jones 10 times out of 10 when it comes to owners of the NFL.

 

[silver]

The title of the thread is misleading in that it states that jerry wins, but it relates to wins in the cash register as opposed to the win loss column. The truth of the matter remains that the fandom is polarized as far as the way Jerry is handling his gm duties. However, nobody owns the absolute truth.

But let me tell you what i will do. i will remain a loyal fan regardless if we select Martellous Bennet’s brother in the second round in April. Not because I agree with the pick. It will be because I’m a fan and I’m hooked and can't get enough of the cowboys.

Mind you I won’t be spending a nickel on the 09 version of the boys. Are you kidding with this economy? Who am I kidding if I say that I will do my share and "punish" jerry to live without my 2 annual trips to Dallas in the fall. Right now I say I won’t go, but I reserve my God given right to change my mind, thank you very much.

For now I will sit back, relax and since I can't control what Jerry will or will not do, enjoy the ride for what amounts one last hurrah for the Jerry/Wade/Owens formula for NFL success in 09. Let’s see how this one turns out.