The risk of high defensive draft picks

[LocimusPrime]

This is a very silly post. But I'll indulge. I'd trade a top-3 RB for Ziggy Ansah in a heartbeat.

Ansah is good. I like him too

 

[LocimusPrime]

Sherman is largely a product of that defense. As was Norman in Carolina.

Just like Dixon Edwards, Larry Brown, Russell Maryland, Robert Jones, Darrin Smith, James Washington, and so many other Cowboys that got paid huge money in the 90s by other teams, then were just average dudes afterward.

Disagree. We'll see this year if norman is a system product.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

My point is, there's only so much a corner or safety can do. Defense is about a collection of several of the right parts. It takes a lot of players; that's why it's so hard to build a truly dominant defense.

Who were the "great" defensive players on the Cowboys in the 90s? Haley, Woodson..........? Deion and Lett later. That's it. Tolbert, Hennings, Marion, Brown, Edwards, Smith, Jones, Everett, Casillas.....there was the same talent level on other teams.

It's about the sum of the parts.

So is Offense. You need 10 other guys to make a running game work. It's not just the RB.

Ken Norton was a Pro Bowl and All Pro Player. Smith was better then just a normal NFL talent. He was very, very good prior to his injury. Jim Jeffcoat was a pretty darn good player as well. If you have 4 Pro Bowl quality players on your Defense, along with other good players, then you probably have a good Defense. Seattle was the top Defense in the NFL last year, they had 5 Pro Bowl players on defense. Bengals were second and they had two. Cheifs were 3rd and they had 4. I rank the Defenses off of pts per game.

 

[erod]

So is Offense. You need 10 other guys to make a running game work. It's not just the RB.

True, but an elite running back can do so much more for a team than other positions with an adequate or better line.

He's a game-breaking runner, a key decoy, a dangerous receiver, an important blocker, and a major concern that defenses have to prepare for all week.

Not true so much for a safety.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

True, but an elite running back can do so much more for a team than other positions with an adequate or better line.

He's a game-breaking runner, a key decoy, a dangerous receiver, an important blocker, and a major concern that defenses have to prepare for all week.

Not true so much for a safety.

So can a CB or a Safety in the right scheme. A guy who can shut down the deep third of the field is invaluable. A guy who can take away your best receiver and make you play with anybody else is invaluable. We, of all fans, should know how valuable that is. What happens when teams take Dez away? How valuable was Deion and his ability to basically take away your best WR? A Safety who can play the run, play the deep threat, take away a TE, create turnovers? The same logic can be used for a Defensive Player. If you have two players like this, in a passing league?

 

[Dalmations202]

True, but an elite running back can do so much more for a team than other positions with an adequate or better line.
<cut>

I think you nailed my problem with picking EE. I really don't think most people realize it, and it is simple.

You are correct, an elite running back can do great with a good line.
A good QB can seem great with a good line...............

But the same thing holds true for the defense.
Running games stop with a really good line.
Passing games stop with a really good line.

Safety's, LB's, CB's can be GREAT when they can gamble on things happening because the LINE is getting pressure.

When you worry about a shiny new button instead of the quality of the fabric and the holes in it -- you might just be looking a little foolish and not able to win consistently in that shirt.......and I don't care how good of a button it is.

 

[erod]

I think you nailed my problem with picking EE. I really don't think most people realize it, and it is simple.

You are correct, an elite running back can do great with a good line.
A good QB can seem great with a good line...............

But the same thing holds true for the defense.
Running games stop with a really good line.
Passing games stop with a really good line.

Safety's, LB's, CB's can be GREAT when they can gamble on things happening because the LINE is getting pressure.

When you worry about a shiny new button instead of the quality of the fabric and the holes in it -- you might just be looking a little foolish and not able to win consistently in that shirt.......and I don't care how good of a button it is.

OK, let's say they draft a really good defensive lineman. Typically, he won't be elite for 2-3 years. And he'll need another draft pick or two to go with him. Get that next year, and he'll take another 2-3 years to get there, too.

Now, Romo is gone. So........

And good defensive lines don't stop elite offenses in the NFL anyway. You can quick-throw you're way out of pass rush issues if you have the weapons.

 

[Dalmations202]

OK, let's say they draft a really good defensive lineman. Typically, he won't be elite for 2-3 years. And he'll need another draft pick or two to go with him. Get that next year, and he'll take another 2-3 years to get there, too.

Now, Romo is gone. So........

And good defensive lines don't stop elite offenses in the NFL anyway. You can quick-throw you're way out of pass rush issues if you have the weapons.

I agree on all accounts.

yes, defensive linemen usually take longer to develop because strength is a huge variable for them, much like OL, and most don't develop the sustained strength until 25 or so. (*Just as a note - Dallas doesn't seem to draft via strength)

I agree with good defensive lines don't stop elite offenses in the NFL anyway. Elite defenses stop elite offenses in the NFL. Quick passes are nice but they can be defended as well - usually coming with PICK 6 because routes can be jumped.

But three years ago Romo was awful and people were calling for his head. A few drafts of mainly upper echelon linemen and Romo is an elite QB. Murray was an oft-injured waste of a 3rd round pick, till a few drafts of upper echelon linemen and he becomes the rushing leader.

The same thing can happen with the defense if they will put the correct people in place. Romo with Dmac -- top 8 offense. Romo with Zeke -- top 3 offense.

Defense -- bottom 10 either way.............NO way to get to the top 15 or so, so no way to win a championship.

If Defense had been added, then maybe they went from 30 to 20 and to 15 next year, and maybe to 10 by '18.
Then you would have had Romo in his waining years with a top 10 offense, and a top 10 defense.

Now, IMO, you have one shiny new button on a pretty shirt in front, but one with massive holes on the other side.

Maybe you will be correct.........but I think you think like Jerry......and that hasn't worked for the last 20 years, so why would it work now????

 

[erod]

I agree on all accounts.

yes, defensive linemen usually take longer to develop because strength is a huge variable for them, much like OL, and most don't develop the sustained strength until 25 or so. (*Just as a note - Dallas doesn't seem to draft via strength)

I agree with good defensive lines don't stop elite offenses in the NFL anyway. Elite defenses stop elite offenses in the NFL. Quick passes are nice but they can be defended as well - usually coming with PICK 6 because routes can be jumped.

But three years ago Romo was awful and people were calling for his head. A few drafts of mainly upper echelon linemen and Romo is an elite QB. Murray was an oft-injured waste of a 3rd round pick, till a few drafts of upper echelon linemen and he becomes the rushing leader.

The same thing can happen with the defense if they will put the correct people in place. Romo with Dmac -- top 8 offense. Romo with Zeke -- top 3 offense.

Defense -- bottom 10 either way.............NO way to get to the top 15 or so, so no way to win a championship.

If Defense had been added, then maybe they went from 30 to 20 and to 15 next year, and maybe to 10 by '18.
Then you would have had Romo in his waining years with a top 10 offense, and a top 10 defense.

Now, IMO, you have one shiny new button on a pretty shirt in front, but one with massive holes on the other side.

Maybe you will be correct.........but I think you think like Jerry......and that hasn't worked for the last 20 years, so why would it work now????

The defense is more talented than the 12-4 defense of two years ago.

Offensive success will greatly help them be better.

 

[Dalmations202]

The defense is more talented than the 12-4 defense of two years ago.

Offensive success will greatly help them be better.

Offense doesn't stop 3rd and 2.
Dallas Power ranking last year was 30th. 76% of the time, the other team succeeded in converting according to footballoutsiders.com stats. Dallas' defense is WEAK and undersized.

So how much more talented is it?

I have great HOPES for Thornton, but Dallas would have been best served, IMO, fixing this line with high draft pieces.

 

[erod]

Offense doesn't stop 3rd and 2.
Dallas Power ranking last year was 30th. 76% of the time, the other team succeeded in converting according to footballoutsiders.com stats. Dallas' defense is WEAK and undersized.

So how much more talented is it?

I have great HOPES for Thornton, but Dallas would have been best served, IMO, fixing this line with high draft pieces.

Like who? Collins and Tapper?

None of the top defensive linemen taken were projected as elite, but the depth was considered outstanding.

 

[Dalmations202]

Like who? Collins and Tapper?

None of the top defensive linemen taken were projected as elite, but the depth was considered outstanding.

even if it was Andrew Billings, who was known for his strength, or AShawn Robinson, or Sheldon Rankins...........or maybe 2 of them with a trade down..............................Strength and Speed wins.........and Dallas seems to have forgotten the strength part of it.

 

[DandyDon52]

My point is that we had tons more resources than Denver did to get the next franchise QB if that is what Jerry really wanted. And Denver got him anyway. This draft was a poor use of resources and value based on what we knew going in.

Well not saying your wrong but Denver doesnt have romo , so that plays into it a little??
They want a QB now not later.

 

[erod]

even if it was Andrew Billings, who was known for his strength, or AShawn Robinson, or Sheldon Rankins...........or maybe 2 of them with a trade down..............................Strength and Speed wins.........and Dallas seems to have forgotten the strength part of it.

Most first round defensive linemen end up being nothing more than Jeremy Mincey.

 

[DandyDon52]

And you really believe that? That is your option. Love how you guys ignore the fact that our two starting DE's are suspended for 4 games. Even when they come back neither guy is anything close to a top notch player.

Well I am not saying they were good picks or good players, I am saying they did draft defense, and get
1 top def FA each off season.
And you guys who wanted a def player, what if they did draft def instead of elliot and it wasnt your guy,
or it is your guy and it doesnt work out so he makes a impact now or later ??

If you look at what they did with hardy and jones last year, I dont think they used them as effectively as they
might have been with other teams/ dc's.
They moved jones all around, so he didnt get good at anything !

 

[Kevinicus]

You say that as if it's a bad thing. Who gives a crap about the chiefs?

It's bad when someone tries to talk about them like they are familiar and knowledgeable about them.

 

[JoeKing]

It's bad when someone tries to talk about them like they are familiar and knowledgeable about them.

So who appointed you the "don't talk about things you're not familiar with" police. Roll your eyes and move on like the rest of us that detected the BS.

 

[Kevinicus]

So who appointed you the "don't talk about things you're not familiar with" police. Roll your eyes and move on like the rest of us that detected the BS.

I did. And it's the "don't pretend to know about something and use falsehoods to make points" police.

 

[JoeKing]

I did. And it's the "don't pretend to know about something and use falsehoods to make points" police.

right

 

[LocimusPrime]

Talib, ward, marshall,knighton, and Ware were all added to Broncos defense in one off season, and boom they where on the way to being an elite defensive unit. That defense made Cam look sorry. Took the ball from him and made him pout.

Draft coupled w free agency makes the process faster. All of those defensive free agent signings where good ones. People sometimes sight at FA is bad, but it can be good if you know what you are doing.