The Roy Myth Thread

[tomson75]

Facts give me a headache, so I make them up. Here's one:

Roy Williams caused global warming.

Hmm...I think that might fall under myth 14. Flatulence caused by his ballooning to 3,000 lbs akes him a Cow...rather than a Cowboy. We all know Cows cause global warming.

 

[khiladi]

In each of his previous seasons, Roy had four to seven missed tackles each year, according to STATS LLC. He averaged 5.8 per season. Just for comparison, Sean Taylor had 19 missed tackles in one season and averaged 10.7 in his first three seasons (last year was his fourth, and I don't have those stats yet). Troy Polamalu averaged 8.7 in those seasons. Bob Sanders played in only half of the games in those three seasons (24 games, some of them as a backup), and they have him with 14 missed tackles -- or 9.3 per 16 games. All of them AVERAGE more missed tackles than Roy EVER had in his first five seasons (and possibly his sixth).

Interesting that the same Adam was quoted as saying:

But like I said, comparing tackles from season to season is pointless, given the huge variance in the opportunities for tackles from season to season. I mean, hypothetically, are you any better for getting 90 tackles in 1,100 plays than you are for getting 88 tackles in 900 plays -- considering that it took you 200 extra plays to get those two extra tackles?

What happened to the variances from year to year?

 

[BadWolf]

Hmm...I think that might fall under myth 14. Flatulence caused by his ballooning to 3,000 lbs akes him a Cow...rather than a Cowboy. We all know Cows cause global warming.

Interesting... but if thats true why is it 63 degrees in Fort Worth, Texas right now.

 

[Kilyin]

Interesting that the same Adam was quoted as saying:

What happened to the variances from year to year?

I guess you can't differentiate between tackles and missed tackles? Or are you just trying to be argumentative?

 

[TEK2000]

Interesting that the same Adam was quoted as saying:

What happened to the variances from year to year?

The quote you referenced from Adam was pertaining to comparing tackles from season to another season of only ONE player.

The point of the stats you quoted was comparing multiple players on missed tackles over the course of several seasons to gather an AVERAGE.

He's not even comparing one to season to another season... he's comparing AVERAGES which is an entirely valid comparison.

 

[jjktkk]

Bottom line, Roy Williams is not the impact player he was 3 years ago. He is a liability in coverage, Williams himself said he hopes that qb's don't throw his way. Hes not stoppping plays behind the line of scrimmage when blitzing off the edge. Hes been a average safety at best the past 3 years. He also seems to pout when critizied and does not seem like a team leader or a team player. I have nothing personal against him. I would love for him to be the player he use to be.

 

[Alexander]

Bottom line, Roy Williams is not the impact player he was 3 years ago. He is a liability in coverage, Williams himself said he hopes that qb's don't throw his way. Hes not stoppping plays behind the line of scrimmage when blitzing off the edge. Hes been a average safety at best the past 3 years. He also seems to pout when critizied and does not seem like a team leader or a team player. I have nothing personal against him. I would love for him to be the player he use to be.

I think I spot about five myths here ready to be debunked. Prepare yourself.

 

[LatinMind]

i dont know about 4-7 in a yr stuff. all know that in theebs video from this past yr. u see roy williams wffing on tackles more then 4-7times. lol. and its clearly visible. the same tired, put his shoulder down and miss. in the detroit game alone theres atleaast 3. i dont with know think that was theebs intent, lol but theres plenty of wiffs with visual proof. including the coaches remark to roy. lol. again great video theebs!

 

[RainMan]

I think I spot about five myths here ready to be debunked. Prepare yourself.

Roy Williams reminds me of the quarterback who throws 21 picks in a season, yet you see the fans justifying about 18 of them.

"Well, the one against Carolina was essentially as good as a punt, so no harm done there. All three against Washington were due to the receivers running the wrong route. The wind was hell in Philly, so can't blame him there. The sun at Texas Stadium got in his eyes against Arizona..."

Meanwhile, through all the excuses, we fans continue to suffer through horrible football.

 

[RainMan]

i dont know about 4-7 in a yr stuff. all know that in theebs video from this past yr. u see roy williams wffing on tackles more then 4-7times. lol. and its clearly visible. the same tired, put his shoulder down and miss. in the detroit game alone theres atleaast 3. i dont with know think that was theebs intent, lol but theres plenty of wiffs with visual proof. including the coaches remark to roy. lol. again great video theebs!

The coach was probably just commending his effort. Hey, he might whiff, but he tries hard.

 

[Idgit]

Roy Williams reminds me of the quarterback who throws 21 picks in a season, yet you see the fans justifying about 18 of them.

"Well, the one against Carolina was essentially as good as a punt, so no harm done there. All three against Washington were due to the receivers running the wrong route. The wind was hell in Philly, so can't blame him there. The sun at Texas Stadium got in his eyes against Arizona..."

Meanwhile, through all the excuses, we fans continue to suffer through horrible football.

Did you read the thread and just not comprehend anything that was in it, or just not read it because you were in a hurry to share your opinion and you figured reading what the thread was about could wait?

 

[RainMan]

Did you read the thread and just not comprehend anything that was in it, or just not read it because you were in a hurry to share your opinion and you figured reading what the thread was about could wait?

Not terribly hard to connect the dots here, Idgit.

I read the entire list of "myths." As someone who happens to think Roy's play has absolutely diminished in recent years, I'm of the viewpoint such a thread reeks of excuse making.

Thus my half tongue-in-cheek comparison to the ardent QB defenses you'll read on some boards. Roy can whiff on a tackle, not make as many big hits, not produce as many interceptions, create too many penalties, be seen traliing on countless TDs ... yet somehow seemingly none of it his ever his fault in some eyes. Remarkably bad coincidences, I suppose?

Roy's not the worst-safety-in-the-history-of-the-league some try to make him out to be. But he's also not the dynamic, game-changing, Ring of Honor-bound safety he looked to be early in his career. That's why I'm down on him. He used to draw fear in opponents, make clutch plays in key situations and produce a highlight reel of hits. It's hard to find such plays these days.

 

[RainMan]

Put me on the side that's not afraid to admit there's an in between. I've yet to see a *single* extremist come out on the pro-Roy side of the debate.

The anti-Roy's are lunatic. As evidence of this, they've even started to gang up on Adam, apparently thinking that if they behave dismissively and agree with each other enough collectively, they can win the debate. This thread is just more evidence that they're wrong on that score, too.

See, here's my problem with the "in-between" thing (if I am 'comprehending' your stance correctly, that is).

There was a time Roy Williams was undeniably one of the premier defenders in the league. He wasn't the best safety in the league only because Ed Reed happened to play the same position.

For a long while, I continued to defend him. Even entering last season I felt the anti-Roy crowd harped too much. But I just don't believe there's that much to defend anymore.

Roy's not terrible. But he's also not great anymore -- which is a shame considering he's young, should be entering the prime of his career and would complete an absolutely insane secondary if he were as good as he was in the very early parts of his career.

I used to see fire and a desire to punish the opponent. Do you see that anymore?

Forget whether it's always his fault he's trailing in coverage. I agree it's not. And it's not like he gets beat every play in coverage. If it were the case, opponents would simply throw his way every time, which they obviously do not.

But no one is above crticism. We have people wondering if Barber is worth big bucks, whether Jenkins/Pacman can replace Newman, whether Romo's celebrity ways are going to ruin him, etc. So Roy's diminishing returns are obviously going to be a point of debate.

Now, if you're saying he's not as bad as some make it out to be, then I absolutely agree. The extremists take everything too far, and this is no different. But if there's an "in-between" to the pro/anti-Roy debate, that tells me there's an "in-between" to his ability, too. Meaning: if he were the player he once was, everyone would be rushing to his defense in times like these. Just look at the responses of an anti-Newman, Romo or Barber thread. The thread creator will get his head ripped off.

With Roy, it's really not worth defending that ardently anymore. He's an OK player, but not a guy worth losing hours of sleep over. And that's a shame, because it's not too long ago he was our best player by a landslide.

 

[AdamJT13]

Interesting that the same Adam was quoted as saying:

What happened to the variances from year to year?

Tek already said part of what I'd say -- I wasn't comparing one year to another year, I gave an average over his entire career.

Secondly, LatinMind ASKED for the missed tackle stats and claimed I never provide stats like those because they'd make Roy look bad (even though I've provided them before). So I provided them. That's the only source for missed tackle numbers right now, so they're the ONLY thing we have to go on. Are they 100 percent accurate? Probably not, but they're not as inherently flawed as the overall tackle stats. And I'm not the one who brought them up, LatinMind is.

Thirdly, another way to look at the missed tackle stats (and how STATS LLC ranks them) is as a percentage of tackle opportunities. Then the number of opportunities possible (based on that widely varying number of and types of plays -- and therefore opportunities) becomes irrelevant. It no longer matters whether your team faced 850 offensive plays or 1,100 offensive plays, or whether you played 14 games or 16 games, because it's based only on what percentage of times you missed the tackle when they determined that you had an opportunity. And just as in the average number of misses per season compared to players such as Sean Taylor, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, Roy grades out the highest percentage-wise, as well -- 93.5 percent for his career through 2006 (I don't have 2007 stats yet), compared to 89.2 percent for Taylor, 91.7 percent for Sanders and 91.3 percent for Polamalu. And Roy graded higher percentage-wise than Taylor or Sanders in EVERY season since they came into the league.

 

[RainMan]

Tek already said part of what I'd say -- I wasn't comparing one year to another year, I gave an average over his entire career.

Secondly, LatinMind ASKED for the missed tackle stats and claimed I never provide stats like those because they'd make Roy look bad (even though I've provided them before). So I provided them. That's the only source for missed tackle numbers right now, so they're the ONLY thing we have to go on. Are they 100 percent accurate? Probably not, but they're not as inherently flawed as the overall tackle stats. And I'm not the one who brought them up, LatinMind is.

Thirdly, another way to look at the missed tackle stats (and how STATS LLC ranks players) is as a percentage of tackle opportunities. Then the number of opportunities possible (based on that widely varying number of and types of plays -- and therefore opportunities) becomes irrelevant. It no longer matters whether your team faced 850 offensive plays or 1,100 offensive plays, or whether you played 14 games or 16 games, because it's based only on what percentage of times you missed the tackle when they determined that you had an opportunity. And just as in the average number of misses per season compared to players such as Sean Taylor, Troy Polamalu and Bob Sanders, Roy grades out the highest percentage-wise, as well -- 93.5 percent for his career through 2006 (I don't have 2007 stats yet), compared to 89.2 percent for Taylor, 91.7 percent for Sanders and 91.3 percent for Polamalu. And Roy graded higher percentage-wise than Taylor or Sanders in EVERY season since they came into the league.

I'd be interested in seeing Roy's stats for that category once they do become available. Last season was the first time I thought his diminishing ability was so readily apparent. I was always on the pro-side of the debate before.

I know this isn't a stat-supported argument, but just an observation that could be entirely misguided. But I just think Roy has slipped from best-player-on-the-team status to being an Akin Ayodele-type guy. A serviceable starter that isn't going to cost you games. But not exactly a difference maker.

 

[DaBoys4Life]

Roy Williams reminds me of the quarterback who throws 21 picks in a season, yet you see the fans justifying about 18 of them.

"Well, the one against Carolina was essentially as good as a punt, so no harm done there. All three against Washington were due to the receivers running the wrong route. The wind was hell in Philly, so can't blame him there. The sun at Texas Stadium got in his eyes against Arizona..."

Meanwhile, through all the excuses, we fans continue to suffer through horrible football.

The coach was probably just commending his effort. Hey, he might whiff, but he tries hard.

Not terribly hard to connect the dots here, Idgit.

I read the entire list of "myths." As someone who happens to think Roy's play has absolutely diminished in recent years, I'm of the viewpoint such a thread reeks of excuse making.

Thus my half tongue-in-cheek comparison to the ardent QB defenses you'll read on some boards. Roy can whiff on a tackle, not make as many big hits, not produce as many interceptions, create too many penalties, be seen traliing on countless TDs ... yet somehow seemingly none of it his ever his fault in some eyes. Remarkably bad coincidences, I suppose?

Roy's not the worst-safety-in-the-history-of-the-league some try to make him out to be. But he's also not the dynamic, game-changing, Ring of Honor-bound safety he looked to be early in his career. That's why I'm down on him. He used to draw fear in opponents, make clutch plays in key situations and produce a highlight reel of hits. It's hard to find such plays these days.

See, here's my problem with the "in-between" thing (if I am 'comprehending' your stance correctly, that is).

There was a time Roy Williams was undeniably one of the premier defenders in the league. He wasn't the best safety in the league only because Ed Reed happened to play the same position.

For a long while, I continued to defend him. Even entering last season I felt the anti-Roy crowd harped too much. But I just don't believe there's that much to defend anymore.

Roy's not terrible. But he's also not great anymore -- which is a shame considering he's young, should be entering the prime of his career and would complete an absolutely insane secondary if he were as good as he was in the very early parts of his career.

I used to see fire and a desire to punish the opponent. Do you see that anymore?

Forget whether it's always his fault he's trailing in coverage. I agree it's not. And it's not like he gets beat every play in coverage. If it were the case, opponents would simply throw his way every time, which they obviously do not.

But no one is above crticism. We have people wondering if Barber is worth big bucks, whether Jenkins/Pacman can replace Newman, whether Romo's celebrity ways are going to ruin him, etc. So Roy's diminishing returns are obviously going to be a point of debate.

Now, if you're saying he's not as bad as some make it out to be, then I absolutely agree. The extremists take everything too far, and this is no different. But if there's an "in-between" to the pro/anti-Roy debate, that tells me there's an "in-between" to his ability, too. Meaning: if he were the player he once was, everyone would be rushing to his defense in times like these. Just look at the responses of an anti-Newman, Romo or Barber thread. The thread creator will get his head ripped off.

With Roy, it's really not worth defending that ardently anymore. He's an OK player, but not a guy worth losing hours of sleep over. And that's a shame, because it's not too long ago he was our best player by a landslide.

I'd be interested in seeing Roy's stats for that category once they do become available. Last season was the first time I thought his diminishing ability was so readily apparent. I was always on the pro-side of the debate before.

I know this isn't a stat-supported argument, but just an observation that could be entirely misguided. But I just think Roy has slipped from best-player-on-the-team status to being an Akin Ayodele-type guy. A serviceable starter that isn't going to cost you games. But not exactly a difference maker.

your name is rain man.

 

[AdamJT13]

I read the entire list of "myths." As someone who happens to think Roy's play has absolutely diminished in recent years, I'm of the viewpoint such a thread reeks of excuse making.

There's not a single excuse in the entire list. It's merely an example of the myths -- all of them either hyperbole, exaggerations or flat-out falsehoods -- that get repeated over and over and over, even in the media. And lots of people continue to repeat them as if they're actually true.

The salary cap thing, for instance, is an absolute fact -- it contains ZERO opinion, subjectivity or possibility of debate or interpretation. But mediots who don't understand a lick of the salary cap or don't bother to figure out the truth keep saying it, so many fans believe it and say it themselves. I'm the one saying THE COWBOYS COULD SAVE LOTS OF CAP ROOM BY CUTTING ROY TODAY, which is exactly the opposite of what the media is saying and what a supposed "apologist" would want to bring up. But this thread has nothing to do with making excuses or apologizing for Roy, it's ONLY about setting the record straight.

I have no problem with anyone voicing their opinions about Roy or any other player, or criticizing Roy or any other player, as long as it's based on actual truths and not hyperbole, exaggerations, falsehoods and other myths.

 

[RainMan]

There's not a single excuse in the entire list. It's merely an example of the myths -- all of them either hyperbole, exaggerations or flat-out falsehoods -- that get repeated over and over and over, even in the media. And lots of people continue to repeat them as if they're actually true.

The salary cap thing, for instance, is an absolute fact -- it contains ZERO opinion, subjectivity or possibility of debate or interpretation. But mediots who don't understand a lick of the salary cap or don't bother to figure out the truth keep saying it, so many fans believe it and say it themselves. I'm the one saying THE COWBOYS COULD SAVE LOTS OF CAP ROOM BY CUTTING ROY TODAY, which is exactly the opposite of what the media is saying and what a supposed "apologist" would want to bring up. But this thread has nothing to do with making excuses or apologizing for Roy, it's ONLY about setting the record straight.

I have no problem with anyone voicing their opinions about Roy or any other player, or criticizing Roy or any other player, as long as it's based on actual truths and not hyperbole, exaggerations, falsehoods and other myths.

I understand what you're saying.

Two quick questions:

1. Where would you say Roy ranks among safeties in the league? The best? Top five? Top 10?

I always see the statistical comparisons to the Polamalus and Sanders of the world, and agree that their flaws are generally overlooked nationally. All safeties give up touchdowns --- heck, corners get beat for TDs all the time, too. So I agree that Roy is overly picked on for this.

2. Would you say Roy is playing the best football of his career right now? And by that I mean last season specifically. Feel free to use the last few seasons as "right now," but I'd also like an assessment of just last season as "right now."

I have no agenda in asking these questions, but I do think they'd give me a better idea to know how to interpret threads like these. I realize these aren't homer statements you're making, but I think you can see why a list of 38 "myths" in reaction to the overly anti-Roy crowd might be initially perceived as such. If someone were to create such a myth thread for Romo -- with the trip to Mexico, starlet flings, etc as the crux -- or Pacman -- with the topper being that "he killed a man in a Las Vegas shooting" -- I think a similar perception would also prevail, even if wrongly.

 

[AdamJT13]

I understand what you're saying.

Two quick questions:

1. Where would you say Roy ranks among safeties in the league? The best? Top five? Top 10?

In what time period? Last season only? The past two years? The past four? For his career?

2. Would you say Roy is playing the best football of his career right now?

Of course not! I've said many times that he didn't create his usual number of big plays last season, which is what he's best at. So if he didn't do what he's best at, he's obviously not playing his best.

a list of 38 "myths"

The list is up to 45 now.

 

[LatinMind]

The list is up to 45 now.

so u try and call everything that u think is wrong a myth? and try to justify everything by stats? and disregaurd what we see, and analysts see during the game because the stat doesnt show it? ur too involved with these stats. just because jon kitna had a huge yr statwise doesnt mean he had a good yr.

u can throw all the stats u want, but great coaches will tell u stats are overrated and they go based on play on the field. an with ur own eyes u can see roy williams isnt very good.