The Roy Myth Thread

[gbrittain]

A direct quote from Dave Campo: "I think I can get with him and progress," Campo said. "I think Roy has skills and can play better than he's playing."

http://cbs11tv.com/cowboys/campo.cowboys.position.2.640512.html

Sure there are some extremeist, but there is some validity to the "concerns" being expressed.

 

[AdamJT13]

what money would we save if we dumped him this year or next year? what cap hit would we take if we dumped him this year or next?

Cutting Roy would save $3.72 million more than cutting him next season would save, and we could have that extra cap room to spend this season or in any future season, in any proportion we choose.

maybe jerry wants to see if Roy can become a top player again instead of an average one.

So maybe Jerry doesn't agree that Roy is bad enough to be cut immediately, as some people want? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say Roy isn't worth paying $3.72 million dollars to play this season? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say that Roy can't become a top player again?

 

[iceberg]

Correct. I originally credited him with a penalty he never made and overlooked the Shockey TD. Then I made amends. Did I get credit for noting his speed and hustle? Um, no. The original point stands: there's no dearth of bad plays to choose from which cancel out the good ones. When that happens, you're "average"--a very generous adjective considering he was suspended for an entire game. Anything else he does falls under "just doing what's expected of you." No pat on the head needed or warranted.

Btw, you really need to stop conflating "criticism" with "bashing." Very annoying.

stop bashing people with your critisizm and i'll be glad to.

i did not see you go "sorry, i was wrong about that" i saw "oh well he still messed this up!"

when i read back i do see a more balanced post, my bad for missing that. that however doesn't change the point once you saw your "critisizm" was wrong you just dumped it and ran to another. as for a "dearth of bad plays to choose from" - it helps when you pick on roy for the plays he's made, not just lob up a current myth as fact and then dump it for another when shown to be a "myth".

if i did that a time or two i'd be pretty hesitant to lob out myth after myth as fact w/o checking myself or at least staying out of the discussion.

 

[chinch]

if bbgun posts over the top (i don't read here always regularly)...

that doesn't change the fact that Roy is overpaid, under-performing, a TD-machine for opponents, a preferred matchup for any DC, a non-leader, a football-idiot, non-deserving prowbowler, a whiner/crybaby and someone WE NEED TO GET RID OF.

he's just not that good and one dumb tackle away from a 4? game suspension.

nothing adam posts (or any other respectable poster says) will change this situation.

 

[iceberg]

if bbgun posts over the top (i don't read here always regularly)...

that doesn't change the fact that Roy is overpaid, under-performing, a TD-machine for opponents, a preferred matchup for any DC, a non-leader, a football-idiot, non-deserving prowbowler, a whiner/crybaby and someone WE NEED TO GET RID OF.

he's just not that good and one dumb tackle away from a 4? game suspension.

nothing adam posts (or any other respectable poster says) will change this situation.

if it were within our power to get rid of the whiner crybabies, we'd have to start here before we could go to the cowboys players.

and actually, nothing anyone says will change the mindset of those who've already set their opinions in stone. they can't listen to another viewpoint, they must shoot it down to protect their mindset.

not go "am i wrong"?

like i said, witch hunt.

 

[AdamJT13]

HUGE INVESTMENT, AFRAID TO LOOK FOOLISH, FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN.

plus the whole "new defense theory". coaches know he's a football dummy.. might take 2 years to learn what others learn in 2 months.

Jerruh already paid for this BAD GAMBLE (and bone-headed contract extension) so why not ride it out a little more. They paid alot of $$$$, will take a cap hit and they HOPE (ie. pray for miracle) he won't be beaten like a mule again and again.

So, the best way to deal with a "bad gamble" is to spend even more money on it? And the best way not to look foolish is to look even more foolish?

If Jerry actually felt like you do, why wouldn't he cut Roy immediately so he could better ensure that players such as Newman, Ware, Barber, Owens and Hamlin don't leave after this season? Why would he waste his money on a player who won't be there next season, barring a "miracle"? Talk about foolish.

 

[Rampage]

Cutting Roy would save $3.72 million more than cutting him next season would save, and we could have that extra cap room to spend this season or in any future season, in any proportion we choose.

than you should email dmn and all these other articles/people that said we would take a lesser cap hit if we cut him next year than this year.


So maybe Jerry doesn't agree that Roy is bad enough to be cut immediately, as some people want? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say Roy isn't worth paying $3.72 million dollars to play this season? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say that Roy can't become a top player again?

#1 ive been back and forth but i think he deserves another chance
#2 if roy plays like he did last season he's not worth paying that money
#3 that remains to be seen. imo i don't think he will be a top player again. but hopefully he proves me wrong.

 

[iceberg]

So, the best way to deal with a "bad gamble" is to spend even more money on it? And the best way not to look foolish is to look even more foolish?

If Jerry actually felt like you do, why wouldn't he cut Roy immediately so he could better ensure that players such as Newman, Ware, Barber, Owens and Hamlin don't leave after this season? Why would he waste his money on a player who won't be there next season, barring a "miracle"? Talk about foolish.

this is a gamble on jones. just as it's wrong to assume every move roy makes is bad, it's wrong to also say that every move jones is making is right/good. however, in the end it *is* his call and he is quite likely more privy to info we're all not entitled to. we've been pretty happy with the post-parcells moves jones has made and even some he *forced* upon parcells like TO.

so this could be the wrong move to make as well, adam. you may have posted this elsewhere but my understanding was cutting roy would be a $6.66mil hit to the cap (6.67 actually but i felt a bit satanic here). you say we'd be in a better position.

all the roy bashing/defense aside, how would it breakdown if he were cut vs. if he stays? if you already have this somewhere a link would be most appreciated.

 

[AdamJT13]

Gee, I guess I'll have to settle for the fact that he gave up the TD to Shockey.

You'll "have to settle" for that? As if you were hoping that Roy actually did commit the personal foul that you claimed he did?

And people think some Roy-bashers don't root for him to fail.

If you weren't such an incorrigible extremist

Please name one thing I've posted that qualifies as "extremist."

you'd have noticed that my post was largely complimentary, whereas you pay mere lip service to Roy's flaws. You don't want "fairness"; you want adulation. Not gonna happen, stat king. Go kiss that photo of Roy under your pillow and take a nap.

I've seen plenty of immature personal attacks such as yours (which I fully expected), but I have yet to see anyone prove or even attempt to prove a single one of the myths on the list I posted.

 

[JPM]

this is a gamble on jones. just as it's wrong to assume every move roy makes is bad, it's wrong to also say that every move jones is making is right/good. however, in the end it *is* his call and he is quite likely more privy to info we're all not entitled to. we've been pretty happy with the post-parcells moves jones has made and even some he *forced* upon parcells like TO.

so this could be the wrong move to make as well, adam. you may have posted this elsewhere but my understanding was cutting roy would be a $6.66mil hit to the cap (6.67 actually but i felt a bit satanic here). you say we'd be in a better position.

all the roy bashing/defense aside, how would it breakdown if he were cut vs. if he stays? if you already have this somewhere a link would be most appreciated.

Cutting Roy would save $3.72 million more than cutting him next season would save, and we could have that extra cap room to spend this season or in any future season, in any proportion we choose.




So maybe Jerry doesn't agree that Roy is bad enough to be cut immediately, as some people want? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say Roy isn't worth paying $3.72 million dollars to play this season? And maybe Jerry doesn't agree with the people who say that Roy can't become a top player again?

About 5 posts above you.

 

[iceberg]

About 5 posts above you.

saw that part but thank you. i was more after why did we think (maybe cause i'm stupid, could well be : ) that it would cost us vs. we can actually save. just kinda looking for a breakdown on how it ends up, not the final figure.

like when you turn in math homework - end answer is good, but i'm curious how we got there. : )

 

[AdamJT13]

so much for being able to say you were wrong about the penalty you were harping on about. fyi, adults when found they were propping up an argument with a lie would chill out for a bit on things. not you, however.

roy-bashers motto: when one myth is shot down, quickly run to another and never EVER let the bashing end!

To be fair to bbgun, when his myth about the penalty was shot down, he didn't run to another myth. Roy did allow the TD to Shockey. He could have left it at that and sounded much more intelligent and mature, but he decided to pull his usual stunts.

 

[iceberg]

Please name one thing I've posted that qualifies as "extremist."

you didn't and don't bash roy at every opportunity. you also "swim upstream" against the witch hunt and hunters hate that cause it questions their own mindset and they don't handle that too well or they'd have thought it out better to begin with.

 

[iceberg]

To be fair to bbgun, when his myth about the penalty was shot down, he didn't run to another myth. Roy did allow the TD to Shockey. He could have left it at that and sounded much more intelligent and mature, but he decided to pull his usual stunts.

you are right, roy did give that one up. i think you covered the gist of my post when you said he more or less wanted roy to mess up so he could scream about it. but throw up enough myths and excuses and facts, something will stick and when you find one that does, the misses don't matter.

unless it's roy doing the missing. : )

 

[chinch]

So, the best way to deal with a "bad gamble" is to spend even more money on it? And the best way not to look foolish is to look even more foolish?

If Jerry actually felt like you do, why wouldn't he cut Roy immediately so he could better ensure that players such as Newman, Ware, Barber, Owens and Hamlin don't leave after this season? Why would he waste his money on a player who won't be there next season, barring a "miracle"? Talk about foolish.

Jerruh has a penchant for being foolish and a gambler. he thinks the bigger the risk the higher the reward.

what can i say, he thinks "one more year" is worth that risk/reward and possible payout.

 

[iceberg]

It would be helpful if you gave a post number, link or quote, so I know what you're talking about.

Five posts above my post that you quoted is a personal attack from chinch. Is that what you wanted me to read?

no, he was talking to me in your how much we can save. he pointed out my question and then your answer that was 5 posts above my question.

 

[JPM]

It would be helpful if you gave a post number, link or quote, so I know what you're talking about.

Five posts above my post that you quoted is a personal attack from chinch. Is that what you wanted me to read?

I actaully quoted the post (from you) Iceberg was looking for. It was a cap question.

 

[khiladi]

Jerry has already stated that he thinks that Roy can improve his game. He has already stated that much of his problems have to do with positioning and angles. He has already stated that he believes Roy can be the player he once was.

That is why Jerry isn't cutting Roy....

And even Jerry admits that Roy needs to step it up..

As is obvious, the majority of his issues are technique, which have very little to do with weight-training. The cop-out now for Roy is to blame the scheme and ultimately ask for a trade if he fails to deliver. He knows eyes or all on him now... Not only will the issue of scheme be raised, but the defense mechanisms of using religion as an excuse for his deteriorating play will most likely come, as if the two necessarily correlate.

 

[Doomsday101]

Jerry has already stated that he thinks that Roy can improve his game. He has already stated that much of his problems have to do with positioning and angles. He has already stated that he believes Roy can be the player he once was.

That is why Jerry isn't cutting Roy....

And even Jerry admits that Roy needs to step it up..

As is obvious, the majority of his issues are technique, which have very little to do with weight-training. The cop-out now for Roy is to blame the scheme and ultimately ask for a trade if he fails to deliver. He knows eyes or all on him now... Not only will the issue of scheme be raised, but the defense mechanisms of using religion as an excuse for his deteriorating play will most likely come, as if the two necessarily correlate.

I agree even Campo made statements of working with Roy. I really don't consider myself a Roy basher, I like the guy but I don't see the same guy I was seeing a couple of years ago right now. Roy has the ability to play better and hopefully Campo can help him regain his old form.

 

[khiladi]

I agree even Campo made statements of working with Roy. I really don't consider myself a Roy basher, I like the guy but I don't see the same guy I was seeing a couple of years ago right now. Roy has the ability to play better and hopefully Campo can help him regain his old form.

And here is the exact words from Jerry, if people think I am making stuff up:

"I think that we can expect a much more productive Roy Williams this coming year. That would imply that he had room to be more productive, and I think there are several things I think Roy will know and better deal with. The Roy Williams rule -- I think he will have an acclimation and handle it better. I think that is something that has impacted his play. And I know that it has. I handled the hearing. I represented him on the hearing in the suspension. My point is that is something that has had an impact on him.

But that's not only technique, that's positioning. That's a lot of things. That's get out of ahead of the guy, a little more than coming from behind. There are a lot of things that are involved there he needs to work on. I know he's going to do it better. There are things that impact that can make that better. Our coaching staff, Wade (Phillips), can do some things that can help his game. He'll do better. ...

"My answer to all of (the criticism) is I have every reason to believe technically not just willing it or wishing I, I have every reason to believe he'll play better than last year."


Jerry has stated unequivocally that:

1. Roy Williams play dropped off
2. He believes that Roy will make the necessary corrections to improve his game
3. He believes that Roy can adjust to the horse-collar rule, as well as admitted that it has impacted his game somewhat
4. He stated that part of the reason for Roy Williams even resorting to the horse-collar is because of not only technique, but positioning. This is a direct refutation of those that argue that Roy was never out of the play or was performing his assignments correctly.
5. When he refers to getting ahead of the guy, that clearly points to Roy's decision making ability.

It is quite obvious Jerry is making comments that are somewhat influenced by what the coaching staff saw.

No matter the people who argue that the anti-Roy crowds are exxaggerating, the fact is, where there is smoke, there is fire. Campo, to Jerry, to Greg Ellis all point to the reality that Roy better get his act together.