***The Second Call/NonCall good/bad conspiracy etc thread***merged**

[tyke1doe]

Photos are snapshots in time and can be very inaccurate and deceptive. If you were to take a photo of a person running and isolate that photo, you'd swear a man could run on air.

You can't use one snapshot to prove the ball doesn't hit the ground. If you look at the video, the ball CLEARLY hits the ground. Now whether Dez made a football move or not is really the point of debate, not whether the ball hits the ground.

But no argument is going to change what happened, nor will it lead to the Cowboys playing next week. So I'm not going to torture myself over it.

 

[JBS]

Again, wrong. Because he was down by contact. And he lunged. And then rolled into the end-zone where the ball came loose, just like in the video I posted.

Except that's not the call, so that isn't how it works...

The call is he's going to the ground, so he has to maintain possession all the way through...he needed to make a football move, which Imo, he did

 

[cajuncocoa]

Business Insider has a gif of the play on this page:
http://www.businessinsider.com/dez-bryant-catch-2015-1

 

[khiladi]

Calvin Johnson put the ball on the ground, with his hand totally on top of it. Why people would even compare the two is absurd. When the arm is between the ground and the ball, it's a catch period. He was also down by contact and his reach wasn't even part of the process, it was after it. That reach is what one could argue that caused the ball to come out.

Even Pereira is saying he reached, but claimed he did not reach enough.

 

[Nation]

Missing the point.

The ball came loose after Dez rolled over. His arm, when the ball made contact with the ground, was always secure in-between it and the ground. And this happened after his reach.

Right but the problem is by the letter of a bad rule the part where he rolled over is not part of a football move but is instead part of the entire catch-process, and includes the ball hitting the ground and coming loose. It's unfortunate but that is the terrible Calvin Johnson rule at its finest.

 

[SultanOfSix]

1) Dez already completed the catch.
2) Dez was touched/tripped/tackled by the defender which makes it down by contact when the his elbow hits prior to the ball hitting the ground.
3) If Dez goes up vertically for a ball and possesses it, is contacted by a defender and his elbow or knee is down, and then another defender comes in and knocks the ball out, it's not an incomplete pass or a fumble. He's down by contact.

This whole thing is a fraud of epic proportions being "loop-holed" after the fact.

 

[khiladi]

Except that's not the call, so that isn't how it works...

The call is he's going to the ground, so he has to maintain possession all the way through...he needed to make a football move, which Imo, he did

No, the call was a CATCH, which they changed,

 

[khiladi]

Right but the problem is by the letter of a bad rule the part where he rolled over is not part of a football move but is instead part of the entire catch-process, and includes the ball hitting the ground and coming loose. It's unfortunate but that is the terrible Calvin Johnson rule at its finest.

The LUNGE and REACH was part of the football move, which Pereira has already admitted he did.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/former-nfl-official-highlights-biggest-221615494.html

 

[JBS]

If you believe dez completed the catch before hitting the ground, that's fine...

But there's no Damn sense in arguing whether he maintained possession after hitting the ground or not....it's irrelevant

 

[cajuncocoa]

Business Insider has a gif of the play on this page:
http://www.businessinsider.com/dez-bryant-catch-2015-1

At the least I would expect to have heard inconclusive evidence and the initial call (complete pass) should stand.

 

[kramskoi]

'Don't put yourselves in a position where a referee's call can cost you the game.' It's good advice. We should expect a team that understands and honors that. To their credit, with the exception of Dez (and I don't blame Dez for it), that's pretty much exactly what we did.
I really hope we don't end up whining half as much as Detroit did after their QB threw a ball into a defenders back last week.

Yep cause the media sure as heck won't! Bank it, book it, and brand it!!!!

 

[gimmesix]

No guys. The ball definitely hits the ground.

Where the ONLY controversy is the "football move" or whatever they're calling it now.

All in all, it's done. No use complaining now.

Everybody and their mom is going to agree it's a terrible rule, but it is the rule.

"Football move" is such a subjective term, which is one of the reasons I think the rule needs to be changed. One of the main arguments I've heard for the call being a catch is that Dez made a football move and was trying to score (I didn't think that he did). What this rule does, though, is leave too much open for interpretation by the officials.

 

[Nexx]

I believe this was taken after the ball hits the ground...

that is corret

 

[CowboyGil]

My emotional human side says we got robbed. My logical Vulcan side tells me that according to the rule currently in place, it was indeed an incomplete pass. I think where the NFL messed up is instead of taking their 3 or 4 best officiating crews, they mixed them up sp you have guys that don't normally work together and the results are less than stellar. The playoffs is not the time to experiment like that. The genius that came up with that idea should be hung up by his toes.

 

[Nova]

"Football move" is such a subjective term, which is one of the reasons I think the rule needs to be changed. One of the main arguments I've heard for the call being a catch is that Dez made a football move and was trying to score (I didn't think that he did). What this rule does, though, is leave too much open for interpretation by the officials.

right, that's what I mean by controversy. Seems like football move is a judgment call. There are some who think he did not reach for the TD and some that do.

I personally, do. As evidenced by his last kick as a lunge, and Bryant holding the ball in one hand and moving it forward.

 

[khiladi]

This is the alleged definitive image:

That is a catch. Ball is the very definition of secure, with Dez's arm between it and the ground. And mind you, this is after he was tripped by the defender and would have been ruled down. If you actually look at the gif of the link I provided where Mike Heriara admits Dez lunges, it becomes clear this GIF above is way after the contact of Dez had already happened and he was tackled.

And a ground can't cause use a fumble anyways, but Dez never fumbled it, because the ball came lose when he was underneath the ball and he secured it once again.

 

[hairic]

show me where his arm is under the ball??

Find the frame where it isn't:

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/the-ball-never-hit-the-ground-bspn-photo.312899/page-4#post-5933399

Watch the finger placements on the ball, and whether they move or not:

1st frame, ball on the ground, ball in his grasp.
2nd frame, ball off the ground, ball in his grasp.
3rd frame, ball off the ground, ball in his grasp.

The ball touches the ground, but Dez has control of it. He loses control of it because of his shoulder pads and helmet rolling through his arm, not the ground, with the ball on top of his arm at that point. It's never on the ground without him in control.

 

[TonyS]

This is the alleged definitive image:

That is a catch. Ball is the very definition of secure, with Dez's arm between it and the ground. And mind you, this is after he was tripped by the defender and would have been ruled down. If you actually look at the gif of the link I provided where Mike Heriara admits Dez lunges, it becomes clear this GIF above is way after the contact of Dez had already happened and he was tackled.

And a ground can't cause use a fumble anyways, but Dez never fumbled it, because the ball came lose when he was underneath the ball and he secured it once again.

Feel ya, but the ball has already hit the ground at this point and is coming up and out of Dez's hand. Ball definitely hit the ground as your pic shows Still a terrible call as he had control of the pass and was lunging forward toward the goal line, but it did hit the ground.

 

[gimmesix]

right, that's what I mean by controversy. Seems like football move is a judgment call. There are some who think he did not reach for the TD and some that do.

I personally, do. As evidenced by his last kick as a lunge, and Bryant holding the ball in one hand and moving it forward.

I agree that that's really the only argument here: Was he reaching out to score or just in the process of going to the ground with the ball? One is a football move; the other is not. My belief is that he was trying to score but didn't really reach out with the ball (because it just looked like the act of falling to me), but I can't really say he wasn't "moving it forward" and trying to get across the line.

The only way for such a play to be resolved without debate is to remove football move from the equation. The only way I can think to do that is go back to a player just having to have two feet down for it to be a catch. In Dez's case, he had two feet down and was contacted by the defender, so when his forearm touched the ground, he would have been down.

 

[khiladi]

Feel ya, but the ball has already hit the ground at this point and is coming up and out of Dez's hand. Ball definitely hit the ground, plenty of images floating around the forum show it. Still a terrible call as he had control of the pass and was lunging forward toward the goal line, but it did hit the ground.

Again, arm is still between ball and ground, secured around the ball. This is why we see referees always judging a catch based on this, not whether or not it simply touches the ground. The control issue came after Dez rolled over.