The Secondary has to fix itself right now

[scottsp]

Our safeties are a tremendous problem in coverage. They are biting on too many underneath routes and flattening out way too early as opposed to getting on their horse when it's time to do so. Corners are going to get beat. I don't care who you're talking about. And we are getting almost nothing in deep support.

No one is really disputing a lack of consistent pass rush, but until that much is remedied, it is not asking too much to keep the play out front. The big plays in the passing game are absolutely murdering this club right now. Looking at games around the league, Dallas is not lagging so far behind in terms of pressuring the passer. They're not so woeful in that area that it excuses the mental breakdowns in coverage.

The Bengals, I believe, are leading the league in turnovers forced and they only have two sacks through three games. After watching their last two games, it's not like they're in the face of the passer much at all. I say that because the number of sacks can be misleading. They're so-so in that department. Nothing special. And there are a few teams just like the Bengals.

What those teams are not doing is giving up 45 yards in chunks, or big plays. They play intelligently. They're keeping the ball out front. And when they do happen to get significant pressure (which isn't that often), they have a shot at forcing turnovers.

The Cowboys are in the top third of the league in terms of creating turnovers. Only three teams have picked off more passes. So that really isn't a problem. And yes, I understand that has been against three relatively pedestrian pass offenses. But that's typically where opportunistic defenses get their numbers. Even the Ravens will have a rough go of it against an offense like the Colts.

So, despite the Cowboy pass rush not quite resembling that of Greer, Lundy, Olsen, and Jones, it's not altogether anemic. And it in no way justifies the mental breakdowns in pass coverage, especially in the back. That must be corrected regardless. Because the number of big plays surrendered to this point is rather alarming.

Randy Moss and Terrell Owens are next in line. If Tim Rattay and Brandon Lloyd can exploit us over the top, God help us.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Our safeties are a tremendous problem in coverage. They are biting on too many underneath routes and flattening out way too early as opposed to getting on their horse when it's time to do so. Corners are going to get beat. I don't care who you're talking about. And we are getting almost nothing in deep support.

No one is really disputing a lack of consistent pass rush, but until that much is remedied, it is not asking too much to keep the play out front. The big plays in the passing game are absolutely murdering this club right now. Looking at games around the league, Dallas is not lagging so far behind in terms of pressuring the passer. They're not so woeful in that area that it excuses the mental breakdowns in coverage.

The Bengals, I believe, are leading the league in turnovers forced and they only have two sacks through three games. After watching their last two games, it's not like they're in the face of the passer much at all. I say that because the number of sacks can be misleading. They're so-so in that department. Nothing special. And there are a few teams just like the Bengals.

What those teams are not doing is giving up 45 yards in chunks, or big plays. They play intelligently. They're keeping the ball out front. And when they do happen to get significant pressure (which isn't that often), they have a shot at forcing turnovers.

The Cowboys are in the top third of the league in terms of creating turnovers. Only three teams have picked off more passes. So that really isn't a problem. And yes, I understand that has been against three relatively pedestrian pass offenses. But that's typically where opportunistic defenses get their numbers. Even the Ravens will have a rough go of it against an offense like the Colts.

So, despite the Cowboy pass rush not quite resembling that of Greer, Lundy, Olsen, and Jones, it's not altogether anemic. And it in no way justifies the mental breakdowns in pass coverage, especially in the back. That must be corrected regardless. Because the number of big plays surrendered to this point is rather alarming.

Randy Moss and Terrell Owens are next in line. If Tim Rattay and Brandon Lloyd can exploit us over the top, God help us.

Brilliant post. I hope some people read it, pay attention and hopefully understand the message.

 

[Rack]

Rack-- "Good" and "Consistent" pressure are not possible in this league. The rules and the offenses do a find job to mininize pressure on the QB.

I agree with you that our pass rush could be improved even more. But your expectations as a fan are unreasonable.

1. MY expectations are no unreasonable. You just have a twisted view of what MY expectations are.

2. YOUR expectations ARE unreasonable concerning our secondary. Sure the safety play can be improved, but no safety tanden or CB tandem in history would be good if they had no help from the pass rush.



Tell you what, next game just watch our DL individually (in our nickel/dime defenses). Tell me that they can't make a vast improvement. Problem is (one problem anyway) attitude. They don't seem to really WANT to get a sack. Watch Ware... he's been shadow boxing LTs all season long. Instead of ATTACKING, he's been slow playing them waiting for them to make a mistake. Watch KGB when he rushes the QB (if the packers ever get an opposing offense in a 3rd and long). He doesn't "Wait" for the tackle to do anything. He forces the tackle to react to him. He forces the tackle to abandon his technique. Watch Dwight Freeney (although I have to say I'm not expecting Ware to be a dwight freeney). Do you think Freeney waits for a tackle to give him an opening, or does he force the issue? That's what I'm referring to. I know that no matter how aggressive our pass rush is, they WILL get blocked from time to time. But the odds of us getting pressure (and sacks) goes up substantially when you actually ATTACK the offensive line.


I even see it with our DL on my semi-pro team. They SUCK at getting to the QB (which is why they're moving me to DT on passing downs this year - time to walk the walk now, eh?). I always tell our DL to quit hitting the OL. It's like they want to run over the OL every play. I tell them they need to get by the OL with as little contact as possible cuz contact with the OL slows them down. I tell them to save the hitting for the QB.


Just watch our DL. Do they look "relentless" to you?

Then watch the Colts DL. Watch Freeney. Watch how relentless he looks. Same with KGB if they ever get in a 3rd and long. I don't know how many sacks the Colts have, but I can tell you right now they have a better pass rush then we do. And the "the colts always have a lead" excuse doesn't fly right now cuz they've barely won their last two games. They weren't blowing anyone out, except the Ravens and that didnt' happen till late in the first half or in the second half.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

1. MY expectations are no unreasonable. You just have a twisted view of what MY expectations are.

2. YOUR expectations ARE unreasonable concerning our secondary. Sure the safety play can be improved, but no safety tanden or CB tandem in history would be good if they had no help from the pass rush.



Tell you what, next game just watch our DL individually (in our nickel/dime defenses). Tell me that they can't make a vast improvement. Problem is (one problem anyway) attitude. They don't seem to really WANT to get a sack. Watch Ware... he's been shadow boxing LTs all season long. Instead of ATTACKING, he's been slow playing them waiting for them to make a mistake. Watch KGB when he rushes the QB (if the packers ever get an opposing offense in a 3rd and long). He doesn't "Wait" for the tackle to do anything. He forces the tackle to react to him. He forces the tackle to abandon his technique. Watch Dwight Freeney (although I have to say I'm not expecting Ware to be a dwight freeney). Do you think Freeney waits for a tackle to give him an opening, or does he force the issue? That's what I'm referring to. I know that no matter how aggressive our pass rush is, they WILL get blocked from time to time. But the odds of us getting pressure (and sacks) goes up substantially when you actually ATTACK the offensive line.


I even see it with our DL on my semi-pro team. They SUCK at getting to the QB (which is why they're moving me to DT on passing downs this year - time to walk the walk now, eh?). I always tell our DL to quit hitting the OL. It's like they want to run over the OL every play. I tell them they need to get by the OL with as little contact as possible cuz contact with the OL slows them down. I tell them to save the hitting for the QB.


Just watch our DL. Do they look "relentless" to you?

Then watch the Colts DL. Watch Freeney. Watch how relentless he looks. Same with KGB if they ever get in a 3rd and long. I don't know how many sacks the Colts have, but I can tell you right now they have a better pass rush then we do. And the "the colts always have a lead" excuse doesn't fly right now cuz they've barely won their last two games. They weren't blowing anyone out, except the Ravens and that didnt' happen till late in the first half or in the second half.

Rack, relentless pressure on each and every pass attempt is not feasible. No team in the league can do that.

At some point you have to be able to cover and our safeties aren't covering.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Again Rack... what are your expectations?

I wish you would just come out with it and say, "Mike I expect serious pressure on every single pass attempt".

We both know that's what you expect... That's OK. I think it's unrealistic but that's OK.

 

[Rack]

Rack, relentless pressure on each and every pass attempt is not feasible. No team in the league can do that.

Why not? Please explain.

Didn't we upgrade the hell our of our DL and DL depth, just so they'd be able to do JUST THAT w/o wearing down in the 4th quarter?


We have Ferguson, Glover, Ellis, Spears, Canty, Coleman, and Ware (Nickel/dime). Why can't they put forth that kind of effort? If they're tired, let another guy in to do the job for them.


Or AT LEAST they can start off by being relentless in the 4th quarter. How's that? Can we do that? Or is it asking too much? Cuz I'm seeing other teams do it, so I figured it was possible for us to do it too.

 

[Rack]

Again Rack... what are your expectations?

I wish you would just come out with it and say, "Mike I expect serious pressure on every single pass attempt".

We both know that's what you expect... That's OK. I think it's unrealistic but that's OK.

Well you obviously DON'T know. And please, stop spin doctoring my posts. I never said that, so don't say that I said that. Ok?

I already explained what I want from our DL. If you can't figure it out after I already said it, then the problem lies with you, not me.

 

[AtlCB]

It's about the PRESSURE, not just sacks. Again, I wish people would open their eyes to what is really going on.

By the way, we had two sacks yesterday... for a loss of 3 yards. Big f'in deal.


Also, would you say our pass rush was solid last year?

We had 6 sacks vs the Bears last year. We even started off "Ok" in that department. Ellis was looking good. But overall, our pass rush sucked.

You're first mistake is judging our pass rush based on how many sacks we have. Especially since a lot of those sacks occured when we blitzed vs one of the worst offenses in the NFL. Again, I'm talking about our pass rush from our FRONT FOUR in obvious passing situations. Therefore how many sacks Roy, Dat, and Shanle have are irrelevant.

Actually, the defensive line has accounted for half of those sacks (Ellis-2, Glover & Canty-1, Spears-.5). The DL has more sacks than the entire defenses of Green Bay, Carolina, Washington, Cleveland, Houston, Cincinatti, Oakland, and Baltimore. The Cowboys also rank 4th in interceptions with five. All of the interceptions came from the cornerbacks and the linebackers. The safeties have not intercepted a single pass this season!!!

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Why not? Please explain.

Didn't we upgrade the hell our of our DL and DL depth, just so they'd be able to do JUST THAT w/o wearing down in the 4th quarter?


We have Ferguson, Glover, Ellis, Spears, Canty, Coleman, and Ware (Nickel/dime). Why can't they put forth that kind of effort? If they're tired, let another guy in to do the job for them.


Or AT LEAST they can start off by being relentless in the 4th quarter. How's that? Can we do that? Or is it asking too much? Cuz I'm seeing other t2.eams do it, so I figured it was possible for us to do it too.

OK Rack.

1. Show me one team that produces good consistent pressure on every down?
2. Do you realize the players our beloved Cowboys are playing are also paid professionals? These aren't highschool kids but paid professionals that are going to win their share of battles-- give them some credit-- OK?

 

[Canadian BoyzFan]

Rack...I get what you are saying. Sorta like a chicken vs. egg argument. I get it and agree for the most part, I think some people just want you to acknowlegde the mistakes made by our safties. Which in my opinion was blantantly obvious...pressure or not.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Really look no further than Rack and his 'just have them attack and forget technique.' And you say we should get rid of Zimmer?

This is not the Arena league. The moment the coaching staff starts telling players to ignore technique is the moment they need to go.

We are very good in all of the statistics that demonstrate pressure, picks and sacks, and for the life of me I cant find the stats for pressures. I have seen quite a few of those as well.

The one in particualr that is poignant to me is the TD toss down the left side where Henry got beat bad we forced Rattay to throw a prayer cause he had 3 Cowboys right in his mug it just so happened that Henry looked horrid and the TD catch was made.

Ware, Glover and Ellis each had at least one pressure and Ware Id say closer to a few. This is not to mention a few here and there from other defenders. But hey Rack says that we dont get pressure so we must not.

I also know that on at least one of the two TD passes from last weak was sent right before the pass rush got there.

More importantly is that I have yet to see a QB sit in the pocket for 8 seconds like they were able to pretty regular last season. QBs are taught to get rid of the ball when they see pressure incoming and I have seen a lot of that as well. Ive also seen QBS forced to scramble to buy time but that is to expected as well.

Our pass rush is much much better than it was last year. Just because we dont get to the QBin 2 seconds on every passing down does not mitigate the improvement. FS is another matter altogether. It is of no small coincidence that when Pile came in for Davis that our defense improved.

 

[Rack]

OK Rack.

1. Show me one team that produces good consistent pressure on every down?
2. Do you realize the players our beloved Cowboys are playing are also paid professionals? These aren't highschool kids but paid professionals that are going to win their share of battles-- give them some credit-- OK?

1. I already told you what teams and players to watch.


2. Again (are you a 5 year old? Am I gonna have to keep repeating myself to you?) I didnt' say they had to win every battle. Not once in any post that I've EVER made here or anywhere else have I said they had to win every battle. So please, get off that crap. I didn't say it, so quit implying that I ever did say or mean it. Cuz it's not the truth.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

1. I already told you what teams and players to watch.


2. Again (are you a 5 year old? Am I gonna have to keep repeating myself to you?) I didnt' say they had to win every battle. Not once in any post that I've EVER made here or anywhere else have I said they had to win every battle. So please, get off that crap. I didn't say it, so quit implying that I ever did say or mean it. Cuz it's not the truth.

Rack, I agree our pressure could be better. But compared to our safety situation it looks "golden" to me at the moment.

Please don't take any of this too seriously OK?

 

[Rack]

Someone brought up a good point in another thread (ironically he was trying to support his stance but ended up supporting mine instead).


Here's just an example of the pass rush vs the safety deal (and keep in mind, I never have said I'm happy with our safety play)

Last year the Ravens had 39 sacks and were the #2 pass defense in the NFL. I point out their sacks only cuz I have no idea where to look to also find how many pressures they had.

Ed Reed had 9 ints and was the NFL's defensive player of the year.



This year they have the 22nd ranked pass defense, 1 sack (yes ONE sack) and Ed Reed has zero INTs and only 1 pass defensed.


First of all, a side note here, the Ravens were dumb to change their defense. It was working great, no need to change it.


Second of all, I think this proves my point somewhat. The Ravens have the best FS in the NFL, but he's only defensed ONE pass this year. Hell, Roy Williams has defensed TWO passes himself.


When the Ravens had a pass rush their secondary produced. Their FS won Defensive player of the year. This year they have no pass rush and their secondary (which actually got UPGRADED) is struggling.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Really look no further than Rack and his 'just have them attack and forget technique.' And you say we should get rid of Zimmer?

This is not the Arena league. The moment the coaching staff starts telling players to ignore technique is the moment they need to go.

We are very good in all of the statistics that demonstrate pressure, picks and sacks, and for the life of me I cant find the stats for pressures. I have seen quite a few of those as well.

The one in particualr that is poignant to me is the TD toss down the left side where Henry got beat bad we forced Rattay to throw a prayer cause he had 3 Cowboys right in his mug it just so happened that Henry looked horrid and the TD catch was made.

Ware, Glover and Ellis each had at least one pressure and Ware Id say closer to a few. This is not to mention a few here and there from other defenders. But hey Rack says that we dont get pressure so we must not.

I also know that on at least one of the two TD passes from last weak was sent right before the pass rush got there.

More importantly is that I have yet to see a QB sit in the pocket for 8 seconds like they were able to pretty regular last season. QBs are taught to get rid of the ball when they see pressure incoming and I have seen a lot of that as well. Ive also seen QBS forced to scramble to buy time but that is to expected as well.

Our pass rush is much much better than it was last year. Just because we dont get to the QBin 2 seconds on every passing down does not mitigate the improvement. FS is another matter altogether. It is of no small coincidence that when Pile came in for Davis that our defense improved.

Good point on Pile. My guess is that you're going to see the amount of plays Davis gets on the starting D continually go down if Pile continues to not blow assignments.

 

[FuzzyLumpkins]

2. Again (are you a 5 year old? Am I gonna have to keep repeating myself to you?) I didnt' say they had to win every battle. Not once in any post that I've EVER made here or anywhere else have I said they had to win every battle. So please, get off that crap. I didn't say it, so quit implying that I ever did say or mean it. Cuz it's not the truth.

And it has been pointed out to you that we win quite a few battles actually more battles than 27 other teams in the NFL. So exactly what would make you happy then?

 

[Rack]

This message is hidden because FuzzyLumpkins is on your ignore list.

Ignore feature... best feature ever. It would be even better if I couldn't see quoted crap of people on my ignore list.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

And it has been pointed out to you that we win quite a few battles actually more battles than 27 other teams in the NFL. So exactly what would make you happy then?

Obviously Rack wants more sacks and pressures... so do I. But I think we have problems that are more serious at this point.

 

[AtlCB]

Someone brought up a good point in another thread (ironically he was trying to support his stance but ended up supporting mine instead).


Here's just an example of the pass rush vs the safety deal (and keep in mind, I never have said I'm happy with our safety play)

Last year the Ravens had 39 sacks and were the #2 pass defense in the NFL. I point out their sacks only cuz I have no idea where to look to also find how many pressures they had.

Ed Reed had 9 ints and was the NFL's defensive player of the year.



This year they have the 22nd ranked pass defense, 1 sack (yes ONE sack) and Ed Reed has zero INTs and only 1 pass defensed.


First of all, a side note here, the Ravens were dumb to change their defense. It was working great, no need to change it.


Second of all, I think this proves my point somewhat. The Ravens have the best FS in the NFL, but he's only defensed ONE pass this year. Hell, Roy Williams has defensed TWO passes himself.


When the Ravens had a pass rush their secondary produced. Their FS won Defensive player of the year. This year they have no pass rush and their secondary (which actually got UPGRADED) is struggling.

Tampa Bay, Jacksonville, Washington, Chicago, and Philadelphia are the top five defenses in the league. All of them have fewer sacks than we do. Cincinatti leads the league in interceptions (12), but only has 2 sacks. Of the teams that have more sacks than us, none of them have more than 3 interceptions.

 

[Rack]

Again, you people keep bringing up sacks. Most sacks does NOT mean most pressure.


I want pressure. Sacks are nice too, but PRESSURE is what forces QBs to throw early and make mistakes.