The Secondary has to fix itself right now

[MichaelWinicki]

Nobody wants to hear that. It is just easier to say GROZ and "rush the passer" than come to grips with the fact that we have two safeties who are not doing their jobs 100%.

Exactly.

Fans ought to open up their eyes to what is really going on.

 

[Justis]

Something must be doing a little better, we were clutch in the second half surrendering only one touchdown, and that wouldn't have been on the board if it hadn't been for a stupid fake punt, and a BS interception. I think our D just needs a little tweaking, and it'll be fine.

 

[Rack]

But Rack the nature of the 3-4 is that the lineman don't rush the passer first

Man I really get tired of having to explain myself over and over (nothing against you, it's just I keep having to explain this).

I'm referring to our Nickel and Dime defense. Where it IS the DL's job to get to the QB. I figure that should be "obvious" but I keep having to explain it. When a team is in an obvious passing situation, we aren't likely to be in the 3-4.

There isn't a team out there that gets a great rush on every play. It just doesn't work that way due to rules changes and what not.

Where did I say I we should have a great pass rush every play? I never said that.


But we are FAR from being "average" in that department.

We improve our pass rush it forces teams to keep people in to block. When that happens, there are less recievers to cover. If they don't keep people in to block, then we get to the QB before he has a chance to throw the deep routes.


This is NOT a "Chicken or the egg" type of deal. A great secondary is useless if you don't pressure the QB. An average secondary looks great if you do have a pass rush.

You can have Ronnie Lott back there at FS and it won't matter with our pass rush. I wish people would understand that. QBs under pressure opens up a lot of things for your secondary. For example, if your secondary has confidence int he pass rush, it allows them to "sit" on more routes cuz he knows the QB won't have time to work the deep routes. It allows your FS to gamble a bit (which is EXACTLY what Ed Reed does, and there's nothing wrong with it if he's making plays) and jump a few routes. Keith Davis screwed up on the 90 TD pass to Lloyd, but if Rattay had pressure on him and had to throw that medium route (that Davis jumped) and David got the int everyone would be talking about how great Davis is.

A great pass rush helps take away the deep routes. And where has our secondary "Struggled"? You got it... with the deep route.

 

[Rack]

Exactly.

Fans ought to open up their eyes to what is really going on.

Look in the mirror when you say that.



I never claimed our Safeties were doing great. I said it doesn't matter WHAT our safeties do as long as the QB has all day to throw.

But some people like to spin doctor what others' say.

Would I like a better FS? You bet. But a pass rush would go a lot further in fixing our deep ball problem then adding an all pro FS.

Would be nice if fans opened up their eyes to what is really going on.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Look in the mirror when you say that.



I never claimed our Safeties were doing great. I said it doesn't matter WHAT our safeties do as long as the QB has all day to throw.

But some people like to spin doctor what others' say.

Would I like a better FS? You bet. But a pass rush would go a lot further in fixing our deep ball problem then adding an all pro FS.

Would be nice if fans opened up their eyes to what is really going on.

Rack, we're tied for 5th in the league in the number of sacks. I ask how much better can we get?

Maybe some better... but I think your expectations for any pass rush are beyond what any defense in the NFL can deliver under today's rules. The fact is on many plays there will not be a good pass rush applied for whatever reason.

I've yet to see any defense in the league so far this year deliver the pass rush that you or many other fans expect.

 

[FRDRCK]

1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th

 

[Rack]

Rack, we're tied for 5th in the league in the number of sacks. I ask how much better can we get?

It's about the PRESSURE, not just sacks. Again, I wish people would open their eyes to what is really going on.

By the way, we had two sacks yesterday... for a loss of 3 yards. Big f'in deal.


Also, would you say our pass rush was solid last year?

We had 6 sacks vs the Bears last year. We even started off "Ok" in that department. Ellis was looking good. But overall, our pass rush sucked.

You're first mistake is judging our pass rush based on how many sacks we have. Especially since a lot of those sacks occured when we blitzed vs one of the worst offenses in the NFL. Again, I'm talking about our pass rush from our FRONT FOUR in obvious passing situations. Therefore how many sacks Roy, Dat, and Shanle have are irrelevant.

 

[Vertigo_17]

I don't think it's the safeties. I think it's the lack of a pass rush.

As bad as this sounds typing this...our pass rush is actually improved this year over last. I know - it still sucks...but at least we're getting "some" pressure.

IMO the safety position is the problem

 

[Rack]

I've yet to see any defense in the league so far this year deliver the pass rush that you or many other fans expect.

Yes, and I'm sure you've been watching every game.


If you think just better safety play is the key to our "secondary" getting better then you are delusional. Just sit back and watch how often our nickel DL gets no pressure from the outside and no push up the middle.


Simply put, the key to great pass defense is an uncomfortable opposing QB.

Hell, in Deion's own words, "Show me a good pass rush and I'll show you two good CBs".

 

[MichaelWinicki]

As bad as this sounds typing this...our pass rush is actually improved this year over last. I know - it still sucks...but at least we're getting "some" pressure.

IMO the safety position is the problem

It is the problem.

You can't generate pressure on every down... it just doesn't work that way.

 

[Dogstar]

Do what the Pats did to the Colts. Disrupt the timing at the line and Blitz, blitz, blitz.

The BD's have got to give the receivers a shove at the line to slow them down. And they need to be coached! I saw our DB's try to disrupt some of the SF receivers at the line, which was more than they did 2 games ago. I have faith that they can be coached to face these guys.

 

[Rack]

As bad as this sounds typing this...our pass rush is actually improved this year over last. I know - it still sucks...but at least we're getting "some" pressure.

IMO the safety position is the problem

I don't think the pass rush has improved at all. We've got soem sacks/pressure on blitzes (still not enough pressure though), but I'm referring to our front 4 in the Nickel/Dime defense.


Sure we could blitz more out of our nickel/dime. We'd make some plays, and give up some plays. But if you can get a good CONSISTENT pass rush going with your front 4 then you can make the plays w/o giving up nearly as many plays.

And, no, I'm not asking for the 85 bears pass rush here. Just "Good" and "Consistent" would be fine by me. Right now we're consistently below average.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yes, and I'm sure you've been watching every game.


If you think just better safety play is the key to our "secondary" getting better then you are delusional. Just sit back and watch how often our nickel DL gets no pressure from the outside and no push up the middle.


Simply put, the key to great pass defense is an uncomfortable opposing QB.

Hell, in Deion's own words, "Show me a good pass rush and I'll show you two good CBs".

OK Rack. Find for us one game this year where the defense generates consistent pressure on every passing like what you think miraculously exists-- you'll be looking a long time I'm afraid.

Believe it or not it's the offensive lines job to eliminate that pressure-- and by God Rack they are going to do that from time to time so the db's are going to have to cover... including the safeties.

 

[Rack]

It is the problem.

You can't generate pressure on every down... it just doesn't work that way.

Again, who said "pressure on every down"? Please, enlighten me. I know I didn't say it. Maybe someone else did.

Fact is if we had signed a FS in the offseason (shulters, sharper, or whoever) and they were struggling you STILL wouldn't realize it's the pass rush. You'd simply say "Oh so and so just isn't that good anymore" or some other crap like that.


Again, if the opposing QB is comfortable, he'll make plays against you.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

I don't think the pass rush has improved at all. We've got soem sacks/pressure on blitzes (still not enough pressure though), but I'm referring to our front 4 in the Nickel/Dime defense.


Sure we could blitz more out of our nickel/dime. We'd make some plays, and give up some plays. But if you can get a good CONSISTENT pass rush going with your front 4 then you can make the plays w/o giving up nearly as many plays.

And, no, I'm not asking for the 85 bears pass rush here. Just "Good" and "Consistent" would be fine by me. Right now we're consistently below average.

Rack-- "Good" and "Consistent" pressure are not possible in this league. The rules and the offenses do a find job to mininize pressure on the QB.

I agree with you that our pass rush could be improved even more. But your expectations as a fan are unreasonable.

 

[Rack]

Find for us one game this year where the defense generates consistent pressure on every passing like what you think miraculously exists

Did you go to the BlindZebra School of Spin Doctoring?

Cuz I swear I never said we have to generate good consistent pressure on EVERY passing down. Nope, never said that.

But if that's the way you resort to debating (by spin doctoring) then have a good day.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Again, who said "pressure on every down"? Please, enlighten me. I know I didn't say it. Maybe someone else did.

Fact is if we had signed a FS in the offseason (shulters, sharper, or whoever) and they were struggling you STILL wouldn't realize it's the pass rush. You'd simply say "Oh so and so just isn't that good anymore" or some other crap like that.


Again, if the opposing QB is comfortable, he'll make plays against you.

Well Rack if "if" was a fifth we'd all be drunk.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Did you go to the BlindZebra School of Spin Doctoring?

Cuz I swear I never said we have to generate good consistent pressure on EVERY passing down. Nope, never said that.

But if that's the way you resort to debating (by spin doctoring) then have a good day.

OK. And I'm asking respectfully... what is good, consistent pressure in your world?

What does that mean?

 

[blindzebra]

We are on pace for 48 sacks, 27 INTs, and 37 turnovers.

48 sacks would have lead the league in 2003 and 2004.

27 INTs would have been first in 2004 and 3rd in 2003.

37 turnovers would have been 3rd in 2004 and 4th in 2003.

But let's not have any perspective on these things. Not only are we averaging 3 sacks a game, I'd wager we are near twice that in pressures as well.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

We are on pace for 48 sacks, 27 INTs, and 37 turnovers.

48 sacks would have lead the league in 2003 and 2004.

27 INTs would have been first in 2004 and 3rd in 2003.

37 turnovers would have been 3rd in 2004 and 4th in 2003.

But let's not have any perspective on these things. Not only are we averages 3 sacks a game, I'd wager we are near twice that in pressures as well.

Exactly. Our "pressure" can be better but there is a limit on how much you can pressure a QB in the NFL. We aren't the dregs of the earth like some think we are.