They just blew the Dez rule in the JAX vs NYG game

[TellerMorrow34]

Gee. The GB cb. Real student if the game. That's your go to source?

Elevate your arguments or just stay on the sideline sister

That corner has likely forgotten more about NFL football then you've bothered to learn.

 

[AbeBeta]

You clearly don't understand the rule.

I don't care to explain it to you but you can read this:

http://cowboyszone.com/threads/the-...e-rewritten-merge.326133/page-28#post-6209754

Pertinent part:

It may be more cathartic to you to simply tell yourself "well gosh that's just the rule and it's a tough break", but that doesn't make it so.

Yes. You understand the rule better than every official in the NFL.

He has to maintain control as he goes to the ground. That's it. Plain and simple. This has been explained clearly by many NFL folks.

 

[AbeBeta]

you have to be running to lunge??? uh, I just did a lunge in my living room....wasnt even running.

No. You've got to be running to establish yourself in the field of play. That would negate the need to hold on to the ball as you hit the ground.

 

[AbeBeta]

Even simplifying this arguement even more....the ball never clearly hit the ground. So therefore all of the other conversation is not needed.

Uh, yeah it sure did. That's not even remotely debatable

 

[AbeBeta]

his opinion carries quite a bit more weight than some couch potatoe..........
Packers CB Sam Shields says Dez Bryant made catch in ...
www.si.com/nfl/2015/01/23/packers-cowboys-sam-shields-dez-bryant
... says he believe that Bryant made the catch. ...

Yes, NFL corners. These guys are versed in the intricacies of obscure rules.

 

[DogFace]

No. You've got to be running to establish yourself in the field of play. That would negate the need to hold on to the ball as you hit the ground.

How many steps until one is considered to be running?

 

[theogt]

Yes. You understand the rule better than every official in the NFL.

He has to maintain control as he goes to the ground. That's it. Plain and simple. This has been explained clearly by many NFL folks.

I don't typicall buy appeals to authority when the answer is otherwise readily discernible.

He must hold on throughout the process, unless he completes a football move during the process, such as lunging. That's been clearly stated by NFL officials many times -- the example is right there in the case book. The NFL's explanation, however, was that it wasn't "enough of a" lunge, implying that some lunges aren't sufficient and some lunges are, which is clearly in conflict with the rule book.

 

[erod]

The Giants' starting offense now has scored three points in seven series.

I think they had more defensive injuries, too.

Geez, Dallas needs to avoid serious injury for 8 more days.

 

[Joefrl]

If you hated the old rule, get ready for the new one.

The old rule said that a football move completes the catch process; the new rule says being "upright long enough" completes the catch process.

The old rule said having enough time to make a football move completes the process, no need for an actual football move. Being upright long enough is just another way to say the same thing.

 

[Joefrl]

I don't typicall buy appeals to authority when the answer is otherwise readily discernible.

He must hold on throughout the process, unless he completes a football move during the process, such as lunging. That's been clearly stated by NFL officials many times -- the example is right there in the case book. The NFL's explanation, however, was that it wasn't "enough of a" lunge, implying that some lunges aren't sufficient and some lunges are, which is clearly in conflict with the rule book.

There is no conflict with the rule book as it does not define what a lunge is. It is a pur judgement call.

 

[Joefrl]

Is there a new case book in 2015?

Yes, it just came out a few days ago.
http://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2015-nfl-rulebook

 

[Joefrl]

I know it isn't the rule, but to me it is about "going to the ground"

If they are tackled or tripped it should be two feet or a knee down before losing possession.

If they leave their feet and go to the ground on their own to make the catch then they have to maintain throughout.

Dez and this own are catches.

It is about "going to the ground". The process of a catch has to be done before "going to the ground" or item 1 applies.

 

[cowboyblue22]

so its still so confusing they can call it however they want to get the result they want.

 

[BlindFaith]

I don't typicall buy appeals to authority when the answer is otherwise readily discernible.

He must hold on throughout the process, unless he completes a football move during the process, such as lunging. That's been clearly stated by NFL officials many times -- the example is right there in the case book. The NFL's explanation, however, was that it wasn't "enough of a" lunge, implying that some lunges aren't sufficient and some lunges are, which is clearly in conflict with the rule book.

Did you even read the other thread? Or the other thread before that?

First, the example you are quoting was in a case book from 2012. It wasn't in the rule book last year or the year before that.

Second, even if it were still in the rule book, it clearly states that if a player is going to the ground while in the process of making a catch, is able to BRACE themselves and then simultaneously lunge, loses control of the ball, it's a catch. Clearly you don't know what brace is intended to mean. Just as you clearly don't know what "football move", "becoming a runner", "being upright long enough" is intended to mean.

It boils down to the following:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

(c) maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act
common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an
opponent, etc.).

Player Going to the Ground.
If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact
by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the
field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control,
the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

It's worded poorly and is left to be pretty vague, but the meaning has been and still is this. To have caught the ball, after (a) and (b) you must be in control of your body and able to protect yourself. Still on your feet. On your feet and not in the process of falling. Or on your feet long enough to have been able to protect yourself and in control of your body before you begin to fall.

The reason for this is to make sure that a pass catcher doesn't get blown up with a big hit while he's in some sort of awkward position and then they rule it a fumble. They want the pass catcher to establish the ability to mitigate and protect themselves from that. It has always been intended to be that way.

Now, if a pass catcher is going to the ground while in the process of making a catch, then they most likely don't have the ability to mitigate and protect themselves from a big hit. Who knows how many possible positions they could be in. All of which exposing them to getting blown up. So if they are going to the ground they need to make sure they control the ball through the process of contacting the ground. That eliminates any possible fumbles by a basically defenseless pass catcher.

Now, where I think the point of real contention is in this boils down to this "lunge" reference in a case book from a few years ago. It is NO LONGER in the rule book. But again, the intent was that if a pass catcher is going to the ground and is able to BRACE themselves and then lunge it would be ruled a completion, even if the ball touches the ground. BRACE means to support or regain control of your body and be able to mitigate and protect themselves.

Dez was going to the ground during the entire process of the catch. His lunge was performed while still in the act of falling. The ball hits the ground and comes loose. Incomplete pass.

 

[BlindFaith]

Even simplifying this arguement even more....the ball never clearly hit the ground. So therefore all of the other conversation is not needed.

And yes, for the trillionth time, the ball does hit the ground.

 

[Fritsch_the_cat]

I've always thought as soon as a knee touches the ground the play is over. I guess I've been wrong all these years.

 

[percyhoward]

The old rule said having enough time to make a football move completes the process, no need for an actual football move. Being upright long enough is just another way to say the same thing.

In theory, the part about having enough time applied in all cases, but in practice only mattered when the runner wasn't trying to advance the ball. Obviously if he was trying to advance it, there would be a football move, given enough time. That's what made the play easier to officiate under the old rule than it is under the new rule, unless the player was already in the end zone -- where no physical act (no football move) is needed because he isn't trying to advance the ball. That kind of play was just as difficult to officiate under the old rule as it is under the new one.

Under the new rule, the entire field might as well be the end zone for this purpose, because they are no longer looking for a specific physical act to complete the catch process. Ostensibly, in order to see if he completes the process, they're just timing how long he's upright. How long is long enough and how upright is upright enough depends solely on the official's judgment, so it's far from being "just another way to say the same thing." They took out the words "act common to the game" as a direct result of the backlash over that specific aspect of the Dez play.

It's no coincidence that those words are no longer there.

 

[AbeBeta]

I don't typicall buy appeals to authority when the answer is otherwise readily discernible.

He must hold on throughout the process, unless he completes a football move during the process, such as lunging. That's been clearly stated by NFL officials many times -- the example is right there in the case book. The NFL's explanation, however, was that it wasn't "enough of a" lunge, implying that some lunges aren't sufficient and some lunges are, which is clearly in conflict with the rule book.

What Blind faith said

 

[Joefrl]

How many steps until one is considered to be running?

Running is one way to do it, and all you would need is one step after two feet are down before you start to fall.

 

[Joefrl]

I've always thought as soon as a knee touches the ground the play is over. I guess I've been wrong all these years.

That is true for a runner, but not for a receiver.