They just blew the Dez rule in the JAX vs NYG game

BlindFaith

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That is why the intent of Int Replay was that the On-The Field Ref opinion held up---unless undisputable evidence otherwise........not a diff. opinion phoned in from NYC

There was indisputable evidence. The official making the call on the field didn't see the ball hit the ground. Reviews showed it did. Incomplete pass. Unless you dispute the fact that the ball hit the ground?
 

BlindFaith

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Nice to see all the usual suspects that have no clue how to read a rule, know what a case book is and how it is used, or what is clearly a change in the rules is.

Here is the Rule as it was written in 2012, 2013, and 2014:


ARTICLE 3 - COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS.

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

  1. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
  2. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
  3. maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).
Note 1: It is not necessary that he commit such an act, provided that he maintains control of the ball long enough to do so.

Note 2: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1: Player Going to the Ground. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Item 2: Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball throughout the process of contacting the ground, or the pass is incomplete.

Item 3: End Zone Catches. The requirements for a catch in the end zone are the same as the requirements for a catch in the field of play.

Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender causes the ball to become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.

Here is 2015:

ARTICLE 3. COMPLETED OR INTERCEPTED PASS

A player who makes a catch may advance the ball. A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

  1. secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and
  2. touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and
  3. maintains control of the ball after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, until he has clearly become a runner (see 3-2-7 Item 2).
Note: If a player has control of the ball, a slight movement of the ball will not be considered a loss of possession. He must lose control of the ball in order to rule that there has been a loss of possession.

If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any part of his body to the ground, it is not a catch.

Item 1. Player Going to the Ground. A player is considered to be going to the ground if he does not remain upright long enough to demonstrate that he is clearly a runner. If a player goes to the ground in the act of catching a pass (with or without contact by an opponent), he must maintain control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, whether in the field of play or the end zone. If he loses control of the ball, and the ball touches the ground before he regains control, the pass is incomplete. If he regains control prior to the ball touching the ground, the pass is complete.

Item 2. Sideline Catches. If a player goes to the ground out-of-bounds (with or without contact by an opponent) in the process of making a catch at the sideline, he must maintain complete and continuous control of the ball until after his initial contact with the ground, or the pass is incomplete.

Item 3. End Zone Catches. The requirements for a catch in the end zone are the same as the requirements for a catch in the field of play.

Note: In the field of play, if a catch of a forward pass has been completed, after which contact by a defender causes the ball to become loose before the runner is down by contact, it is a fumble, and the ball remains alive. In the end zone, the same action is a touchdown, since the receiver completed the catch beyond the goal line prior to the loss of possession, and the ball is dead when the catch is completed.complete the process.

Here is the Definition of a runner as cited in the rule CHANGE:

Item 2. Possession of Loose Ball. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and then maintain control of the ball until he has clearly become a runner. A player becomes a runner when he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground, there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.
Note that there is nothing in the rule or case plays from 2012-2014 that in any way suggests that the player needs to complete the process before he begins going to the ground. In fact as has been shown the exact opposite was true.

Here it is from 2012-2014:

Item 2: Possession of Loose Ball. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and maintain control of the ball long enough to perform any act common to the game. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground, there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.

As with the catch rule, the change was made just to remove part C of the old rule, the part Dez did when he turned, took a 3rd step, switched the ball to his left hand, braced, and extended the ball.

Now the fact that the rule never changed and there was never a point of emphasis from 2012-2014 means that the case book in 2012 was still how the play was intended to be called. The change in 2015 was to make the overturn justified, it had no basis in rule from 2012-2014.

Still incomplete.
 

BlindFaith

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Yawn...proved it was complete by rule, you can ignore it all you want, doesn't change a thing, go troll elsewhere.

You've proved nothing. The final "proving" was already done by the NFL Competition Committee. All you are doing is being a homer. Kuddos. I was a homer back in the day too. Probably would have been doing the same thing as you. Then I grew up.
 

Joefrl

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It's not a question of was it a catch. Per the rule book it wasn't.

The question is - Should it be a catch? If you think it should, how does the rule book need to be updated? How would making it a catch affect opening the game up to more potential fumbles.

Years ago, before part C of a catch was created, it used to be that a receiver could control the ball, get both feet down barely and immediately get hit by a defender, the ball rolling down the field. In those days, that was a fumble and nobody liked that. Everbody, The NFL and it's fans alike, wanted that to be called an incomplete pass, and so, part C of a catch was born.
In the old days, assuming no contact from Shields, the Dez play would have been a catch and a fumble. If the ball got away from Dez, Shields would have had the easiest fumble recovery ever. If the ball rolled into and out of the end zone, it would have been Packer ball at the 20. The NFL does not want either of those to be the case, and nor do cowboy fans........who in those cases would have been howling for the call to be incomplete!
 

sbark

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There was indisputable evidence. The official making the call on the field didn't see the ball hit the ground. Reviews showed it did. Incomplete pass. Unless you dispute the fact that the ball hit the ground?

gotta show me that piece of vid........
 

blindzebra

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You've proved nothing. The final "proving" was already done by the NFL Competition Committee. All you are doing is being a homer. Kuddos. I was a homer back in the day too. Probably would have been doing the same thing as you. Then I grew up.

No I am an official with over 20 years experience reading and applying rules and know what the hell I am talking about. I also have a good nose for sniffing out fake fans.
 

blindzebra

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Years ago, before part C of a catch was created, it used to be that a receiver could control the ball, get both feet down barely and immediately get hit by a defender, the ball rolling down the field. In those days, that was a fumble and nobody liked that. Everbody, The NFL and it's fans alike, wanted that to be called an incomplete pass, and so, part C of a catch was born.
In the old days, assuming no contact from Shields, the Dez play would have been a catch and a fumble. If the ball got away from Dez, Shields would have had the easiest fumble recovery ever. If the ball rolled into and out of the end zone, it would have been Packer ball at the 20. The NFL does not want either of those to be the case, and nor do cowboy fans........who in those cases would have been howling for the call to be incomplete!

It was 4th down...wow, just when I thought you couldn't get more ridiculous.
 

Joefrl

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Nope...for the millionth and 1 time. Arm is under the ball and you cannot say with any certainty that the ball hitthe ground without his arm underneath it.

Inconcluaive which means the call stands.

There is an angle that clearly shows the ball hit the ground and another angle that clearly shows he lost control. If item 1 applies, it is incomplete.
 

blindzebra

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As I understand it, they don't release an actual rule book to the fans, only a case book. So, If that is right, then this is a case book.

LOL, clearly you do not understand much.

A rule book is the written rules.

A case book is an illustration of the rules in a play form.

Rule book is the rules of the game.

Case book is how they are to be applied in game situations.
 

DogFace

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You've proved nothing. The final "proving" was already done by the NFL Competition Committee. All you are doing is being a homer. Kuddos. I was a homer back in the day too. Probably would have been doing the same thing as you. Then I grew up.

Yes. That's exactly how grown ups respond to those they disagree with. Name calling is a sign of a mature adult. :)
 

blindzebra

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It doesn't make any difference what down it was.

You said, had it been ruled a fumble Dallas fans would have been screaming for it to be incomplete...fumble goes to GB..incomplete goes to GB.
 

BlindFaith

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Years ago, before part C of a catch was created, it used to be that a receiver could control the ball, get both feet down barely and immediately get hit by a defender, the ball rolling down the field. In those days, that was a fumble and nobody liked that. Everbody, The NFL and it's fans alike, wanted that to be called an incomplete pass, and so, part C of a catch was born.
In the old days, assuming no contact from Shields, the Dez play would have been a catch and a fumble. If the ball got away from Dez, Shields would have had the easiest fumble recovery ever. If the ball rolled into and out of the end zone, it would have been Packer ball at the 20. The NFL does not want either of those to be the case, and nor do cowboy fans........who in those cases would have been howling for the call to be incomplete!

That's exactly it. Those fighting so hard for this to be a catch don't realize the over all impact it would have if it was made one.
 

Joefrl

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It's not a question of was it a catch. Per the rule book it wasn't.

The question is - Should it be a catch? If you think it should, how does the rule book need to be updated? How would making it a catch affect opening the game up to more potential fumbles.

With regards to the 3 parts of a catch, only parts A&B should be reviewable. Part C should NOT be reviewable by instant replay. It can't be "Confirmed"
anyway. They are never going to make that bad of a call that part C could actually be "Confirmed" as wrong.
 
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