CFZ This team needs to stop taking gambles in the second round

[TheHerd]

The first few rounds need to spent on talent that loves football. This team underestimates that second part.

 

[phildadon86]

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/dal/draft.htm

- Osa was not picked in the 2nd round, .. he was one of three 3rd rd. picks (Osa, Gholston and Wright)

- So I guess " Sam I Am Williams " as a 2nd round pick is on his way to being a dumb strategy too ..?

- I do not think the Joseph pick was dumb strategy at all.
Joseph had college game success vs Heisman WR Devontae Smith, he displayed INT skills, and he was a great athlete at 4.35 speed.
I could understand the theory despite the past red flags prior to the NFL draft. .

- Reportedly the Cowboys coveted Georgia CB Eric Stokes who went to Green Bay in the 1st round.
Just as they thought Samuels Jr. was more of a Jourdan Lewis nickel back slot guy than an outside guy.
He didn’t have the size-length they prefer in outside CBs.

Again. Sam Williams wasnt a risk. He was a good pick at that spot. I am specifically talking about players with issues/injuries in the second.

So you believe that because Joseph had a good game against 1 player he was worth the risk in the second round? With all of the players I listed that were there?

 

[McKDaddy]

I couldn't believe our good fortune that JOK had dropped into our laps. I wanted him badly.

I would have also taken Samuels there without hesitation.

Bottom line, when players have serious question marks avoid them. It's really not that hard. Sure, if they fall far enough it's ok to take a risk but in the second round with premium talent still abundant.

 

[phildadon86]

I couldn't believe our good fortune that JOK had dropped into our laps. I wanted him badly.

I would have also taken Samuels there without hesitation.

Bottom line, when players have serious question marks avoid them. It's really not that hard. Sure, if they fall far enough it's ok to take a risk but in the second round with premium talent still abundant.

JOK was who I wanted to be honest. Bolton would have been a great pick there as well. Samuel was my 3rd option. Joseph wasnt on my radar.

 

[thunderpimp91]

2 All pro players. LOL.

12 players you listed. 4 hit. And its not even about that. This post is about drafting players with ISSUES and PROBLEMS and taking risks in the second round that you shouldnt be taking.

How many of those have been players with issues and problems recently though? Joseph is a huge one. Hill you could argue, but that one was just a really bad reach on a 4th-5th round talent. You have to go back to Jaylon & Gregory to get those true high risk/high reward gambles.

Awuzie & Connor Williams were both solid 2nd round picks and have been better players once leaving Dallas. Hill was a huge miss. Joseph a gamble. Diggs is a top CB in the league, and Williams is TBD, but I dont think many are looking down at that pick right now.

I'm just not seeing the issue you are describing as a frequent thing these days, and you have to go back 5-10 years to when Jerry was really taking these massive gambles on players. I think the bigger issue has been player development has been hit & miss. Guys like Awuzie & Williams leaving the Cowboys to have pro bowl seasons year 1 with their new teams seems like a bigger issue to me than anything.

 

[phildadon86]

How many of those have been players with issues and problems recently though? Joseph is a huge one. Hill you could argue, but that one was just a really bad reach on a 4th-5th round talent. You have to go back to Jaylon & Gregory to get those true high risk/high reward gambles.

Awuzie & Connor Williams were both solid 2nd round picks and have been better players once leaving Dallas. Hill was a huge miss. Joseph a gamble. Diggs is a top CB in the league, and Williams is TBD, but I dont think many are looking down at that pick right now.

I'm just not seeing the issue you are describing as a frequent thing these days, and you have to go back 5-10 years to when Jerry was really taking these massive gambles on players. I think the bigger issue has been player development has been hit & miss. Guys like Awuzie & Williams leaving the Cowboys to have pro bowl seasons year 1 with their new teams seems like a bigger issue to me than anything.

If you arent going to spend in FA. Then you have to spend to keep your draft picks.

 

[McKDaddy]

JOK was who I wanted to be honest. Bolton would have been a great pick there as well. Samuel was my 3rd option. Joseph wasnt on my radar.

I wasn't as high on Bolton being an all around player (he has been better than I anticipated) and after drafting Parsons, I was looking to shore up other positions. I would have taken JOK in the second & probably Adebo in the third. Added talent to second & third levels of my defense.

I would have been fine with Joseph in round 4 or later as a double down risk \ reward pick.

 

[thunderpimp91]

If you arent going to spend in FA. Then you have to spend to keep your draft picks.

No argument there, I'm with you 100% in that category. The Cowboys love to let middle of the road guys leave to grab those comp picks, the problem is they don't always turn out to be middle of the road guys, they just dont fit the system or get used by the Cowboys in a way that doesnt fit their skillsets.

Although I believe he is out this year with injury as well so the point is probably moot you can't tell me the Cowboys wouldnt love to have a guy like Awuzie this year on a reasonable deal that he got in free agency.

This is why I defend the Cowboys drafting all the time. I think they are in the top 10% of teams over the last half decade or so in that category. The roster construction issues for the Cowboys comes later in the process.

 

[phildadon86]

No argument there, I'm with you 100% in that category. The Cowboys love to let middle of the road guys leave to grab those comp picks, the problem is they don't always turn out to be middle of the road guys, they just dont fit the system or get used by the Cowboys in a way that doesnt fit their skillsets.

Although I believe he is out this year with injury as well so the point is probably moot you can't tell me the Cowboys wouldnt love to have a guy like Awuzie this year on a reasonable deal that he got in free agency.

This is why I defend the Cowboys drafting all the time. I think they are in the top 10% of teams over the last half decade or so in that category. The roster construction issues for the Cowboys comes later in the process.

They usually hit in the first round. After that. It hasnt been pretty.

 

[RustyBourneHorse]

I dont think so either.

Nick Bolton is 5th in the league in tackles currently. I loved him going into the draft. But. We got Bossman Fat

Yup, Bolton would've been a great addition. Imagine getting him and Parsons in the draft! Along with LVE, we'd have the best LB trio.

 

[Redsfan_83]

If we are healthy at CB we don't have this discussion. Joseph has/was forced into a role he clearly wasn't ready for mentally or physically. Who knows, this time next year maybe he would have developed a brain

 

[Shane612]

Kelvin Joseph is the latest to prove that taking risks in the second round is a dumb strategy. He was benched in the last game, and that doesn't include his off-season antics.

Sure he may be talented but if the brain doesn't match the talent then what's the point? This is another wasted pick to add to the laundry list of risks taken in the second round by Jerry.

Notable players that were still on the board when Joseph was taken.

Asante Samuel Jr
Walker Little (could help right now with our OL issues)
Rondale Moore
Azeez Ojulari
JOK
Dillon Radunz
Nick Bolton (WOW)
Creed Humphrey
Alim McNeil

Jerry needs to stop it with these project picks in the 2nd. I am all for giving a kid a second chance or taking a risk on a guy who is injured (Damone Clark). However. In the second round you need to draft instant starters. Imagine how this team would look right now with any one of those players on it.

Mind boggling.

To be fair, hind-sight is 20/20.
The NFL draft is the definition of "gambling".

 

[phildadon86]

To be fair, hind-sight is 20/20.
The NFL draft is the definition of "gambling".

Yeah. On proven talent. Not a guy who was kicked out of college for lack of love for the game.

 

[phildadon86]

If we are healthy at CB we don't have this discussion. Joseph has/was forced into a role he clearly wasn't ready for mentally or physically. Who knows, this time next year maybe he would have developed a brain

If you are healthy at any position you have had a lot of luck. This team is REACTIVE and never PROACTIVE.

If they decided to use some money on a FA once in while especially cornerback that season they wouldnt have been forced to reach for Joseph.

 

[quickccc]

[QUOTE="phildadon86, post: 12416200, member: 24093"]Again. Sam Williams wasnt a risk. He was a good pick at that spot. I am specifically talking about players with issues/injuries in the second.

So you believe that because Joseph had a good game against 1 player he was worth the risk in the second round? With all of the players I listed that were there?[/QUOTE]

- Why do you think " Sam, I Am " dropped in the 2nd round - despite his freakish size/speed ratio (260 pounds and 4.4 speed) and sack production at the college level ?
Though charges were dropped, some teams may have apparent red flag concerns about his past off field battery incidents.

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/sam-williams/32005749-4c51-5041-55e2-aa34560a7119

 

[Shane612]

Just stop taking need over talent. It’s not that complicated.

I'm kinda back and forth on this concept.
What if your team is already loaded with good WRs, but your draft board says the best talent remaining are couple of receivers? Do you go ahead and add another talented WR, even tho you don't need to?
.
In this scenario, I'd draft the best available for anything other than WR.

 

[thunderpimp91]

They usually hit in the first round. After that. It hasnt been pretty.

Well we can agree to disagree there, and if that's the case I'll bow out of the conversation after this because we wont change each others mind.

The draft in general is a pretty low probability event that hitting on two picks a year is typically a success. Since 2016 the Cowboys have hit on Dak, A Brown, N Brown, Lewis, Awuzie, Wilson, Mike White, Schultz, Armstrong, Gallup, Connor Williams, Donnovan Wilson, ony Pollard, Connor McGovern, Biadasz, Gallimore, Diggs, OSA, Sam Williams then a few newer guys that show promise in Ferguson, Bland, etc.

Are all those guys all pro players? absolutely not. Some are very average guys, some doing better with other teams, but in gerneral even a Mike White type of example they drafted a borderline starter/backup in the 5th. The bigger mistake was probably letting a guy like that go, but from an initial scouting perspective, I give credit to the Cowboys ability to draft really good players.

I just look at who the Cowboys have drafted recently and how many of those guys are starters or at least significant role players around the league somewhere. I dont have the data readily available, but I would bet it's stronger than the majority of the league.

 

[Creeper]

Kelvin Joseph is the latest to prove that taking risks in the second round is a dumb strategy. He was benched in the last game, and that doesn't include his off-season antics.

Sure he may be talented but if the brain doesn't match the talent then what's the point? This is another wasted pick to add to the laundry list of risks taken in the second round by Jerry.

Notable players that were still on the board when Joseph was taken.

Asante Samuel Jr
Walker Little (could help right now with our OL issues)
Rondale Moore
Azeez Ojulari
JOK
Dillon Radunz
Nick Bolton (WOW)
Creed Humphrey
Alim McNeil

Jerry needs to stop it with these project picks in the 2nd. I am all for giving a kid a second chance or taking a risk on a guy who is injured (Damone Clark). However. In the second round you need to draft instant starters. Imagine how this team would look right now with any one of those players on it.

Mind boggling.

Hindsight being 20/20 a few of these players would be good for the Cowboys. I would love to hear why they took Joseph over Samuel if they wanted a CB, and I think it was obvious they wanted a CB. Samuel was clearly the most ready to play. Joseph is a legit 4.3 guy though. Maybe they thought he had upside. But I wonder, even if they had taken Samuel, would they have started him over Brown or Lewis?

Ojulari or McNeil would have been ideal.

 

[quickccc]

Again. Sam Williams wasnt a risk. He was a good pick at that spot. I am specifically talking about players with issues/injuries in the second.

So you believe that because Joseph had a good game against 1 player he was worth the risk in the second round? With all of the players I listed that were there?

That "one " player was anointed the best collegiate player in the nation. as a Heisman winner. The best WR in the entire nation at the collegiate level on a top competitve college program.
That was one of the highest regarded WR prospect in the entire nation. One that Eagles thought so highly of to trade up with us to draft..
Devontae Smith wasn't some scrub no-name Joseph was going up against.

And those players you're listing are likely hindsight players you looked up later on after the facts, " would da… should da… could da” hindsight. i highly doubt you were protesting
your displeasure over bypassing them at the draft time.

 

[phildadon86]

That "one " player was the best collegiate player in the nation. The best WR in the entire nation at the collegiate level.
That was one of the highest regarded WR prospect in the entire nation. Devontae Smith wasn't some scrub no-name Joseph was going up against.

And those players you're listing are likely hindsight players you looked up later on after the facts, " would da… should da… could da” hindsight. i highly doubt you were protesting
your displeasure over bypassing them at the draft time.

Actually I was. Probably shouldnt assume. And that WR you keep boasting about is now the number 2 in Philly because he wasnt good enough to be a number 1 in the NFL.

I was screaming for JOK on draft day. Instead we got Joseph. Because he covered a WR once in his life. Great draft plan lol