CFZ This team needs to stop taking gambles in the second round

[charron]

Draft guys that love to play football. Parsons for example. Not guys with other interests that have already had him kicked out of a school for.

When you know going in they aren't the smartest football wise red flag. Not coachable...red flag. Ripped out every tendon and nerve in a leg....red flag. now we'd all agree you can take a chance on these guys later in the draft like they did with clark. For me that's at least 4th round for medical and 5th or 6th for mental/ attitude issues.

 

[quickccc]

If the Cowboys literally drafted Joseph because he had one good game against Smith. We have bigger problems than I thought.

We have bigger problems because the Jones.. (particularly Stephen) want to lie it all on the NFL draft .. instead/without pursuing any middle ground quality proven vets
that can be "added" to the nucleus of what we can get in the NFL draft.

You cannot fill up all of our big needs by depending upon the NFL draft alone.

 

[phildadon86]

We have bigger problems because the Jones.. (particularly Stephen) want to lie it all on the NFL draft .. instead/without pursuing any middle ground quality proven vets
that can be "added" to the nucleus of what we can get in the NFL draft.

You cannot fill up all of our big needs by depending upon the NFL draft alone.

On this we 100 percent agree. The draft isnt there to build your entire team. You need to supplement it with FA. For example. If they had gotten Casey Heyward, Steven Nelson, AJ Bouye, Kyle Fuller. For examples. They wouldnt have NEEDED to draft a CB that high. This is what for some reason they dont understand. Or dont care.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Kelvin Joseph is the latest to prove that taking risks in the second round is a dumb strategy. He was benched in the last game, and that doesn't include his off-season antics.

Sure he may be talented but if the brain doesn't match the talent then what's the point? This is another wasted pick to add to the laundry list of risks taken in the second round by Jerry.

Notable players that were still on the board when Joseph was taken.

Asante Samuel Jr
Walker Little (could help right now with our OL issues)
Rondale Moore
Azeez Ojulari
JOK
Dillon Radunz
Nick Bolton (WOW)
Creed Humphrey
Alim McNeil

Jerry needs to stop it with these project picks in the 2nd. I am all for giving a kid a second chance or taking a risk on a guy who is injured (Damone Clark). However. In the second round you need to draft instant starters. Imagine how this team would look right now with any one of those players on it.

Mind boggling.

Im not entirely against them gambling in the 2nd. Sam Williams was a gamble and it looks like ot will pay off. However they need to scout those players better.

Williams looked great in the SEC Vs top line OT's like Neal and Cross. Coming out no questioned his playing ability.

Joseph had an impressive tool kit as CB, but really only one year of film. There wasn't enough there to really evaluate how he would transfer to the pros, even as a SEC CB. There was alot more projection with Joseph than Williams, and their projections seem to have been wrong

 

[john van brocklin]

Kelvin Joseph is the latest to prove that taking risks in the second round is a dumb strategy. He was benched in the last game, and that doesn't include his off-season antics.

Sure he may be talented but if the brain doesn't match the talent then what's the point? This is another wasted pick to add to the laundry list of risks taken in the second round by Jerry.

Notable players that were still on the board when Joseph was taken.

Asante Samuel Jr
Walker Little (could help right now with our OL issues)
Rondale Moore
Azeez Ojulari
JOK
Dillon Radunz
Nick Bolton (WOW)
Creed Humphrey
Alim McNeil

Jerry needs to stop it with these project picks in the 2nd. I am all for giving a kid a second chance or taking a risk on a guy who is injured (Damone Clark). However. In the second round you need to draft instant starters. Imagine how this team would look right now with any one of those players on it.

Mind boggling.

Yep, the second round is not the place to look cute.
Roll the dice in the 5th round or later.

 

[xwalker]

2 All pro players. LOL.

12 players you listed. 4 hit. And its not even about that. This post is about drafting players with ISSUES and PROBLEMS and taking risks in the second round that you shouldnt be taking.

Aa @thunderpimp91 indicated, fans way overecaggerate the risks and failures of the Cowboys in the 2nd round.

Only 1 player cut due to the risk issue that was present when drafted (Jaylon). Even that one was more about Jaylon being too dumb. He had enough remaining physical ability to play in the NFL but just did have the instincts. The Giants have dumbed it down for him and he is starting for them.

Hill was not cut due to behavior issues. He was a high effort player on the field. They just had too many similar players with Hill and Gallimore being almost identical in performance and neither being great vs the run (They were drafted to rush the passer).

Escobar was not considered a risk pick. Maybe over-draft but not a high risk type player. He had a life threatening medical issue while with the Cowboys that was rarely reported by the media. Not certain how much that impacted his development.

They still got 50 of a possible 64 games from Gregory on his rookie contract because the season he was suspended didn't count towards free agency. At least 5 of those 14 missed games were due to injury not suspension.

Joseph has been a top 3 ST contributor in terms of snaps played starting with the very first game he played ST play is all about effort and coach-ability. His struggles at CB don't appear to be character related.

 

[phildadon86]

Aa @thunderpimp91 indicated, fans way overecaggerate the risks and failures of the Cowboys in the 2nd round.

Only 1 player cut due to the risk issue that was present when drafted (Jaylon). Even that one was more about Jaylon being too dumb. He had enough remaining physical ability to play in the NFL but just did have the instincts. The Giants have dumbed it down for him and he is starting for them.

Hill was not cut due to behavior issues. He was a high effort player on the field. They just had too many similar players with Hill and Gallimore being almost identical in performance and neither being great vs the run (They were drafted to rush the passer).

Escobar was not considered a risk pick. Maybe over-draft but not a high risk type player. He had a life threatening medical issue while with the Cowboys that was rarely reported by the media. Not certain how much that impacted his development.

They still got 50 of a possible 64 games from Gregory on his rookie contract because the season he was suspended didn't count towards free agency. At least 5 of those 14 missed games were due to injury not suspension.

Joseph has been a top 3 ST contributor in terms of snaps played starting with the very first game he played ST play is all about effort and coach-ability. His struggles at CB don't appear to be character related.

He was in the doghouse for a long time under Marinelli. You dont cut second round picks 3 years into their rookie deal if there isnt something else there my friend.

Joseph is good at special teams? Good for him. He should have been drafted in the 5th then. Not the freaking second round. Which is the whole point of this thread. He was kicked off of a team for character issues. His concerns are well documented and there for you to see if you want to google them.

 

[phildadon86]

Im not entirely against them gambling in the 2nd. Sam Williams was a gamble and it looks like ot will pay off. However they need to scout those players better.

Williams looked great in the SEC Vs top line OT's like Neal and Cross. Coming out no questioned his playing ability.

Joseph had an impressive tool kit as CB, but really only one year of film. There wasn't enough there to really evaluate how he would transfer to the pros, even as a SEC CB. There was alot more projection with Joseph than Williams, and their projections seem to have been wrong

Exactly. Williams wasnt a risk. Joseph was.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Exactly. Williams wasnt a risk. Joseph was.

As a player, no. But Williams was still a gamble. There were alotmof character issues with Williams

 

[phildadon86]

As a player, no. But Williams was still a gamble. There were alotmof character issues with Williams

I dont see that as concerns though. He made mistakes and learned from them. We havent heard a thing about him since. And he had the track record in college to warrant the risk.

Joseph got cut from his first school, had red flags coming out of his rear, and then to top it off gets into a car this summer and we know the rest of that story. I dont see the comparison.

 

[GMO415]

So Escobar RIP wasn't a good TE?

 

[darthseinfeld]

I dont see that as concerns though. He made mistakes and learned from them. We havent heard a thing about him since. And he had the track record in college to warrant the risk.

Joseph got cut from his first school, had red flags coming out of his rear, and then to top it off gets into a car this summer and we know the rest of that story. I dont see the comparison.

He didnt get cut he transfered. There were scouts saying Williams had some of the biggest behavioral flags they had seen in a while. Both Joseph and Williams had very significant character concerns coming out of college. They are compareable in that regard wheather or not you want to see it

 

[phildadon86]

He didnt get cut he transfered. There were scouts saying Williams had some of the biggest behavioral flags they had seen in a while. Both Joseph and Williams had very significant character concerns coming out of college. They are compareable in that regard wheather or not you want to see it

Fair enough.

 

[darthseinfeld]

Fair enough.

Williams may have even been a bigger risk at the time considering he had a record. Sometimes though, those are the easiest to research. A little more black and white. Cowboys supposedly did a significant amount of research into Williams. Joseph there was alot more ambiguity, since he really hadnt done alot of tangible issues expect getting suspended and giving up on LSU.

When you compare the two, what seems to make the difference for is having something solid to review. With Williams you had that, with Joseph there wasnt enough concrete info on him to determine if he would actually mature. And not enough tape to judge if he really was a legitimate starting caliber CB

 

[KJJ]

We need to treat the second round like we do the first round. I’m fine with taking some chances from the third round on but you need to come away with solid players with your first couple of picks. We’re always looking for great value in the second round with players that have fallen due to injury or off the field/character issues.

 

[xwalker]

He was in the doghouse for a long time under Marinelli. You dont cut second round picks 3 years into their rookie deal if there isnt something else there my friend.

Joseph is good at special teams? Good for him. He should have been drafted in the 5th then. Not the freaking second round. Which is the whole point of this thread. He was kicked off of a team for character issues. His concerns are well documented and there for you to see if you want to google them.

I reply to your posts because other people read the posts and replies.

You exaggerate and intentionally pretend not to understand the point of my replies.

Special Teams performance shows that he is coach-able and puts in the required effort in practice and games.

He is struggling due to ability not character.

The media dissects everything that happens with the Cowboys. The local sports talk stations spend all day every day discussing everything Cowboys related in great detail. If Hill was cut due to character issues, we would have heard about it. The reality is that Hill is a physically awkward player. Marinelli wanted him because he is uber quick in a straight line but neglected to consider he lacks balance and change of direction skills. They signed Hankins and somebody had to go. Hill and Gallimore were basically the same player and Gallimore is under contract for another year while Hill was set to become a free agent.

Summary: Jaylon is the 2nd round pick most impacted by the known risk issue at the time of the draft; however, even with Jaylon the risk issue (leg injury) was not the only reason he failed. Being a dumb dumb was a bigger issue than the leg.

 

[phildadon86]

I reply to your posts because other people read the posts and replies.

You exaggerate and intentionally pretend not to understand the point of my replies.

Special Teams performance shows that he is coach-able and puts in the required effort in practice and games.

He is struggling due to ability not character.

The media dissects everything that happens with the Cowboys. The local sports talk stations spend all day every day discussing everything Cowboys related in great detail. If Hill was cut due to character issues, we would have heard about it. The reality is that Hill is a physically awkward player. Marinelli wanted him because he is uber quick in a straight line but neglected to consider he lacks balance and change of direction skills. They signed Hankins and somebody had to go. Hill and Gallimore were basically the same player and Gallimore is under contract for another year while Hill was set to become a free agent.

Summary: Jaylon is the 2nd round pick most impacted by the known risk issue at the time of the draft; however, even with Jaylon the risk issue (leg injury) was not the only reason he failed. Being a dumb dumb was a bigger issue than the leg.

So they drafted someone who cant perform because of their ability. In the second round. Thank you for proving my point.

Regarding Hill. It is literally known that he was in the doghouse for sleeping during meetings.

 

[xwalker]

So they drafted someone who cant perform because of their ability. In the second round. Thank you for proving my point.

Regarding Hill. It is literally known that he was in the doghouse for sleeping during meetings.

A veteran was also disciplined for sleeping during the celebrity meeting. It was not a real football meeting and apparently it was boring. That one meeting was literally the only know behavioral issue.

The was a video interview with Marinelli that season where he said Hill was definitely putting in the effort but that Hill was struggling with technique.

His rookie year, they had Hill practice/play 3tech in camp/preseason but in the regular season games that he played they used him at the 1tech position...

Summary: Drafting high risk players has not been a problem beyond the normal fail rate of 2nd round picks.

We can debate if they misjudged talent but risk issues really have not been a significant issue.

 

[CouchCoach]

The 2nd round pick is Booger's play pick for following the board in the 1st round. He is not happy without some risk involved and harkens him back to his wildcatter days when his best wells were the high-risk ones.

 

[SlammedZero]

It would be interesting to see the bigger picture of what the hit/miss rate would be stacked up against other teams around the NFL. Obviously since Dallas is our favorite team, they're under the microscope more often for us, but I assume other fanbases could be on their forums complaining about some of their 2nd round draft misses.