Tom Brady isn't just the best QB

[sean10mm]

As a side note, Brady DIDN'T play with great OL his whole career. He doesn't usually get a lot of sacks because he doesn't hold the ball too long and makes quick decisions. When QBs other than Brady behind the same lines they usually get sacked at double the rate he does, if not more. Compared to Brady, Garoppolo's career sack rate is downright terrifying, for instance.

In 2007 Brady's sack rate was 3.5%. Behind the exact same offensive line, Matt Cassel was sacked on 8.3% of his attempts and led the league in sacks. "The system" and the "great OL" didn't do anything for anybody playing QB on the Patriots except Brady.

In 2001 he took a hell of a beating and the team stunk at running the ball. His OL let him get sacked 41 times in 14 starts and they were #24 in rushing yards per attempt. In 2013 and 2015 the OL stunk out loud too, giving up 40 and 38 sacks. In several other seasons they were merely average and got bailed out by Brady's skill with the quick passing game - he's the only QB with a winning record when throwing 50+ times a game, and even he only did that because the run game simply did not exist for long stretches.

They let Brady get sacked 5 times in the first Super Bowl vs. the Giants. They just folded. Doesn't seem to "great" to me even then. They were also pitiful in last season's playoff loss to the Broncos.

Outside of one season with Corey Dillon in 2004, these so-called great offensive lines never consistently ran the ball all that well in Brady's career, either. The number of 1,000 yard rushers he's had backing him up is ridiculously small, it turns out. They're usually able to dunk on bottom-5 run defenses, but that's usually it.

 

[KJJ]

I don't want to argue too much but which is it? Is Belechick a POS or is he a good/great coach. I don't care what a washed up media Chris Mortenson reported. I know the circumstances at the time: do you stay with the hot hand or do you revert to the highly paid veteran? Belichick made a good call. He has not looked back, has the same record as Brady ever since and I have to give him credit for that. This is not a knock on Brady by any means, he deserves it. But it if BB went back to Bledsoe, who knows, he made a good call.

Obviously Belichick is regarded as one of if not the greatest HC in NFL history. Some have placed him ahead of Lombardi but do you or anyone else honestly believe he would have the elite status he has today with all the wins and championships if Tom Brady never became his QB? Prior to arriving in NE, Belichick spent 5 years in Cleveland only having one winning season during that period. He had a 6-10 team, a couple of 7-9 teams and a 5-11 team. A declining Bernie Kosar was his QB in 91. Kosar and Mike Tomczak were his QBs in 92. Vinny and the legendary Todd Philcox were his QBs in 93. Vinny and Mark Rypien were his QBs in 94 and in 95 he was stuck with Vinny and Eric Zeier. Belichick went 5-11 his final season with the Browns and his QB situation in Cleveland ended up being his downfall that led to his firing. No HC can win without a solid QB situation.

That failed head coaching stint resulted in Belichick going back to being an assistant for the next 5 years with NE and the Jets. His first season as the Pats HC with them coming off an 8-8 season, Belichick led them to a 5-11 season with Bledsoe who was one of the better QBs in the league at that time. He then starts of 0-2 the following year, then Bledsoe went down and everything magically changed when Brady took over. Belichick has only had to do without Brady once since he's been in NE and that was during the 08 season when Brady got injured on opening day. That was probably the most talented team Belichick had with NE just coming off an undefeated season and the 08 team ended up missing the playoffs. In 22 seasons as a HC Belichick has only led a team to the playoffs ONCE without Tom Brady.

Practically every HOF HC had a HOF QB except for Parcells and Joe Gibbs. Once those QBs declined and moved on everyone of those coaches success pretty much stopped. Most HC's are a product of their QB. If they don't have a good/great QB they end up getting fired. If they have a great QB they usually have long successful careers. Lombardi had Starr, Landry had Staubach, Shula had Griese and Marino, Noll had Bradshaw, Walsh had Montana. It wasn't pretty for Bill Walsh until Montana came along. He was 2-14 and 6-10 until Montana took over at QB.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

People don't like Brady, so they are letting that cloud their judgment. Most of the arguments against him are deeply silly if you give them a second though

Belichick has 1 playoff win without Brady in his entire career. He never won a damn thing without him. Winning a couple of regular season games against what turned out to all be scrub teams this year isn't anything special. Using that to devalue Brady is dumb. Cardinals - crap. Texans - joke. Dolphins - lol.

Cassell turned an 18-1 Super Bowl team into an 11-5 team that missed the playoffs because of a Miami Dolphins team led by Chad Pennington's rotting corpse. He made the best offense in NFL history league average immediately. That's not comparable success, or even close to it.

And I laugh at the "system" arguments. If any idiot can win with that system, why can't any other team do it? And anyway, what team doesn't have a system? Hell, Montana benefited more from the system he played in than anybody in NFL history, because nobody had seen that offense in action before. Montana also played with a ridiculous number of Hall of Famers compared to Brady.

Brady is actually running an offensive scheme that dates back to the 1970s Patriots teams (Earhardt-Perkins, for the actually football literate out there.) There is nothing secret about it, Brady just executes better than just about anybody ever.

Skip Bayless, is that you?

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

All the Cleveland Brown gig arguments and the Belicheat hasnt won anything w/o Brady sound good until you look at the 11-5 record with Matt "cant win for Garrett" Cassel.

End of story.

 

[Bohuntr97]

Obviously Belichick is regarded as one of if not the greatest HC in NFL history. Some have placed him ahead of Lombardi but do you or anyone else honestly believe he would have the elite status he has today with all the wins and championships if Tom Brady never became his QB? Prior to arriving in NE, Belichick spent 5 years in Cleveland only having one winning season during that period. He had a 6-10 team, a couple of 7-9 teams and a 5-11 team. A declining Bernie Kosar was his QB in 91. Kosar and Mike Tomczak were his QBs in 92. Vinny and the legendary Todd Philcox were his QBs in 93. Vinny and Mark Rypien were his QBs in 94 and in 95 he was stuck with Vinny and Eric Zeier. Belichick went 5-11 his final season with the Browns and his QB situation in Cleveland ended up being his downfall that led to his firing. No HC can win without a solid QB situation.

That failed head coaching stint resulted in Belichick going back to being an assistant for the next 5 years with NE and the Jets. His first season as the Pats HC with them coming off an 8-8 season, Belichick led them to a 5-11 season with Bledsoe who was one of the better QBs in the league at that time. He then starts of 0-2 the following year, then Bledsoe went down and everything magically changed when Brady took over. Belichick has only had to do without Brady once since he's been in NE and that was during the 08 season when Brady got injured on opening day. That was probably the most talented team Belichick had with NE just coming off an undefeated season and the 08 team ended up missing the playoffs. In 22 seasons as a HC Belichick has only led a team to the playoffs ONCE without Tom Brady.

Practically every HOF HC had a HOF QB except for Parcells and Joe Gibbs. Once those QBs declined and moved on everyone of those coaches success pretty much stopped. Most HC's are a product of their QB. If they don't have a good/great QB they end up getting fired. If they have a great QB they usually have long successful careers. Lombardi had Starr, Landry had Staubach, Shula had Griese and Marino, Noll had Bradshaw, Walsh had Montana. It wasn't pretty for Bill Walsh until Montana came along. He was 2-14 and 6-10 until Montana took over at QB.

I think we are on the same page, just have a different way of looking at things. Pete Carroll failed miserably at NE as head coach, had to go back to college, only to come back and put a ring on his finger. Was that all Russell Wilson? Bill Cowher was a very successful coach, won championships and SB, and he did it with Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart. Not exactly elite QB's.

Brady was a 5th round pick not a 1st. He needed coaching and development. Belicheat gave that to him. He has created a system that somehow allows QB's to thrive. Matt Cassell was the first QB to have never started in college to start in the NFL, he won 10 games. What has he done since he left? When Brady misses time due to injury or suspension, the Pats still win games.

I'm not questioning that Brady is great. He is. I just always ask the debatable question: If Brady gets drafted by Cleveland or Detroit, does he become the elite QB that he is?

 

[NoLuv4Jerry]

I cannot stress enough how awful....awful.....awful the AFC East was yesterday, is today...and looks to be for the foreseeable future. The head coaching has been terrible. The QB play has been terrible. The fanbases (outside of the Bills) are more or less disinterested and hardly provides a home field advantage. Outside of New England...when was the last time ANYONE else from that division played in the Super Bowl? The 92 Bills? Every other division in the NFL has sent at least 2 teams to the Super Bowl since then with the NFC South and NFC West sending all 4 teams since 1992.

 

[Bohuntr97]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is ownership. Prior to Kraft buying the team, the Pats were a door mat for the Bills and Fins. Since then? Maybe he's the special sauce.

 

[KJJ]

I think we are on the same page, just have a different way of looking at things. Pete Carroll failed miserably at NE as head coach, had to go back to college, only to come back and put a ring on his finger. Was that all Russell Wilson? Bill Cowher was a very successful coach, won championships and SB, and he did it with Neil O'Donnell and Kordell Stewart. Not exactly elite QB's.

Brady was a 5th round pick not a 1st. He needed coaching and development. Belicheat gave that to him. He has created a system that somehow allows QB's to thrive. Matt Cassell was the first QB to have never started in college to start in the NFL, he won 10 games. What has he done since he left? When Brady misses time due to injury or suspension, the Pats still win games.

I'm not questioning that Brady is great. He is. I just always ask the debatable question: If Brady gets drafted by Cleveland or Detroit, does he become the elite QB that he is?

Pete Carroll failed as a HC until he found Russell Wilson. He flopped with the Jets because he was stuck with a washed up Boomer Esiason. He failed in NE and one reason was Bledsoe wasn't very consistent. He was failing in Seattle with back to back 7-9 seasons prompting him to go after Matt Flynn. Wilson beat out Flynn and that's when things changed for Carroll and the Seahawks. Wilson is certainly no Tom Brady but he's developed into a very solid QB, one of the better QBs in the league and him taking over is what changed Carroll's fate as an NFL NC. As for Bill Cowher he had success despite having an average QB situation due to his running game and defense but he never won a SB until Roethlisberger came along. As for Brady he was a 6th round pick not a 5th round pick and Belichick won 11 games with Matt Cassel in 2008 because he had the most talented roster in the NFL.

That team had just come off a 17-0 regular season and had Brady not been injured, NE may have gone 17-0 again and probably no worse than 14-2 or 15-1 with yet another SB appearance. If Brady got drafted by another team no one knows if he becomes as great as he has, just like no one knows if Jerry Rice would have amounted to anything special if he landed on another team without Montana and Steve Young. We don't know how it would have gone for a lot of great players had they ended up on other teams but what we do know about Belichick is he only reached the playoffs once and had two winning seasons in 22 seasons without Brady. Belichick was just another HC until Brady became his QB.

 

[Bohuntr97]

Pete Carroll failed as a HC until he found Russell Wilson. He flopped with the Jets because he was stuck with a washed up Boomer Esiason. He failed in NE and one reason was Bledsoe wasn't very consistent. He was failing in Seattle with back to back 7-9 seasons prompting him to go after Matt Flynn. Wilson beat out Flynn and that's when things changed for Carroll and the Seahawks. Wilson is certainly no Tom Brady but he's developed into a very solid QB, one of the better QBs in the league and him taking over is what changed Carroll's fate as an NFL NC. As for Bill Cowher he had success despite having an average QB situation due to his running game and defense but he never won a SB until Roethlisberger came along. As for Brady he was a 6th round pick not a 5th round pick and Belichick won 11 games with Matt Cassel in 2008 because he had the most talented roster in the NFL.

You are correct, Brady was a sixth. However every reference I have checked shows the 2008 Pats going 10-5. The most talented roster in the NFL, well I think that's the point many of us are arguing. Brady has had a lot of talented rosters to play with.

Pete Carroll failing his first two years? Please. He inherited a horrible 5-11 team and had to totally overhaul it. Lynch, Baldwin, Sherman were not there. Ironically the first 7-9 season won the division and Seattle went to the playoffs, even upsetting the defending SB champs in the first round. Hardly a failure. Not trying to take anything away from Wilson, but I think their defense had more to do with their success than QB play.

 

[Ring Leader]

As they say, opinions are like ***holes. Everyone has or is one.

This one's for you .......wherever you are.

 

[KJJ]

You are correct, Brady was a sixth. However every reference I have checked shows the 2008 Pats going 10-5. The most talented roster in the NFL, well I think that's the point many of us are arguing. Brady has had a lot of talented rosters to play with.

Pete Carroll failing his first two years? Please. He inherited a horrible 5-11 team and had to totally overhaul it. Lynch, Baldwin, Sherman were not there. Ironically the first 7-9 season won the division and Seattle went to the playoffs, even upsetting the defending SB champs in the first round. Hardly a failure. Not trying to take anything away from Wilson, but I think their defense had more to do with their success than QB play.

The Pats went 11-5 in 08 but you're looking at Cassel's starts that season which was 15. Although Cassel played the majority of the opener due to Brady going down, Brady got the win due to starting the game. Pete Carroll didn't inherit a 5-11 team, he inherited an 11-5 team that represented the AFC in the SB in 1996. He went 10-6 his first year with NE in 97 and won a playoff game. He then went 9-7 in 98 and lost in the wildcard round. He went 8-8 in 99 and was fired after NE missed the playoffs. The Pats regressed each year under Carroll causing him to get his walking papers. Belichick took over in 2000 and he went 5-11. He started off 0-2 in 2001 and it appeared the Pats were headed for another miserable season until Brady took over. As for Carroll going 7-9 and making the playoffs in his first year with Seattle and winning a playoff game, Seattle was incredibly lucky to make the playoffs with a 7-9 team and to win a playoff game. They ended up going 7-9 the following year and missed the playoffs despite players like Richard Sherman being on that team.

Seattle's defense ranked 9th in 2011 but the main issue with that team was at QB. Tavaris Jackson and Charlie Whitehurst were awful go check their numbers. They were very inconsistent and turned the ball over which had an adverse impact on Seattle's defense. Pete Carroll was so desperate at QB he went after Matt Flynn. There's no disputing the fact that when Wilson won the job his rookie year beating out Flynn it changed everything for Seattle. There isn't anything that changes a teams fate more than a solid QB. Many teams fortunes have changed practically over night by adding a special QB. We saw what Dak did for the Cowboys this past season. Ever since Wilson took over in Seattle they've been a strong contending team that's appeared in 2 SB's and has a championship. Pete Carroll would likely be back coaching college football if he never drafted Wilson.

 

[mattjames2010]

It comes down to Brady and Montana as the greatest QBs in NFL history. If Brady wins his 5th, that settles the debate for me.

It's funny, because I remember thinking back in 2005 even after Brady won his third Super Bowl thinking "Eh, he's a really good player on a great team" - I NEVER thought Brady would have the season he did in 2007. Brady blossomed twice, once out of college into a competent/good QB and then blossomed into a top 3 QB of all time in 2007 and he's just been consistently great since.

 

[Ring Leader]

It comes down to Brady and Montana as the greatest QBs in NFL history. If Brady wins his 5th, that settles the debate for me.

It's funny, because I remember thinking back in 2005 even after Brady won his third Super Bowl thinking "Eh, he's a really good player on a great team" - I NEVER thought Brady would have the season he did in 2007. Brady blossomed twice, once out of college into a competent/good QB and then blossomed into a top 3 QB of all time in 2007 and he's just been consistently great since.

Even is Brady loses this Super Bowl, he has surpassed Montana. He is equal in Super Bowl wins (may surpass him next Sunday) and has 3 more conference championships. Montana was/will be watching Super Bowl commercials during the 3 times Brady won conference championships that Montana, with superior weapons, couldn't. Even if you hate Brady (I don't particularly like him) Montana just doesn't measure up.

 

[Bohuntr97]

Pete Carroll didn't inherit a 5-11 team, he inherited an 11-5 team that represented the AFC in the SB in 1996."

I clearly said he inherited a 5-11 team in Seattle, which I believe does not play in the AFC anymore.

"As for Carroll going 7-9 and making the playoffs in his first year with Seattle and winning a playoff game, Seattle was incredibly lucky to make the playoffs with a 7-9 team and to win a playoff game."

Well everyone in the conference wished they had said luck, including the Defending SB saints.

"They ended up going 7-9 the following year and missed the playoffs despite players like Richard Sherman being on that team."

Ok, Sherman was being developed and Carroll was in the middle of completely overhauling the team. Over 200 transactions in two years. Kinda hard to win if you are charged in doing that.

 

[Bohuntr97]

Look we can do this dance for years. I have said that Brady is a great QB. The "greatest", we are simply going to have to agree to disagree. Lets just end it at that. Lets talk cowboys stuff since this is a cowboys forum.

 

[sean10mm]

All the Cleveland Brown gig arguments and the Belicheat hasnt won anything w/o Brady sound good until you look at the 11-5 record with Matt "cant win for Garrett" Cassel.

End of story.

11-5 is equal to 16-0? Is that some kind of "new math" I haven't heard of before?

 

[Thetriplets22]

Montana was great, arguably the greatest clutch QB in history and is regarded by many as the greatest QB ever to play the game but his throne is being seriously challenged by Brady who could take over the top spot with one more SB win. He may have already taken over with his 7th SB appearance coming up.

Can't believe ppl think Montana is better than Brady; Dude had jerry rice, Brady has Chris hogan

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

11-5 is equal to 16-0? Is that some kind of "new math" I haven't heard of before?

I never said 11-5 was equal to 16-0. You did. So thats your own math.

But Belicheat goes 11-5 with Matt Cassell. Meanwhile the next Tom Landry, gets an experienced Matt Cassell and did such a poor job with him we end up with the 4th overall pick in the draft.

 

[WPBCowboysFan]

Can't believe ppl think Montana is better than Brady; Dude had jerry rice, Brady has Chris hogan

I cant believe people think Montana is the best QB ever.

Whole lotta "cant believes" in this thread.

 

[haleyrules]

Can't believe ppl think Montana is better than Brady; Dude had jerry rice, Brady has Chris hogan

Yep. Brady with Belichick have proven what a SuperStar Brady really has been!! A real asset for the NFL.