Tomlin vs Switzer

[Bach]

I have never denied that. Not once. I just cut the guy some slack once he hired Parcells. I don't dwell on Switzer, Gailey, and Campo.

Parcells didn't get the job done, but he took us to the place where it can get done. If Wade can't win with this group he will be on my hate list. Right now he's in the creek without a paddle.

No one gets any slack from me unless they are doing their job. All of them have to do better. Every air breathing man jack of them.

I cut Jerry slack and thought he turned the corner too when he hired Parcells.

I think where we disagree is you seem to think everything changed that day and has stay changed.
Whereas I see him hiring a proven non-winner like Wade, micromanaging the staff, undermining the staff, cultivating a toxic environment - just like he did prior to the hiring of Parcells.

The one thing that has been better is the draft. And that is primarily due to Lacewell not being here and the system BP and Ireland put in place. Jerry still knows as much about college personnel now as he did 15 years ago. And he's been running the team the last two years the same way he did prior to 2003.

 

[chinch]

it's a good analogy both are terrible gameday coaches but at least tomlin is young and might learn. i posted Tomlin is a bottom of the barrel coach but some here think he's the next vince lombardi. ROTFLMAO.

their defense is playing out of their skulls (no correlation to tomlin) and mr-concussion hits one ONE game changing great pass a game to pull out a victory. that recipe would make even Wade and Jerry look competent.

Ok just courious from the diehards like him or not Barry Swizter is the LAST coach to win a playoff game for the Dallas Cowboys...

having said that we all know everyone said he did it with Jimmy's team.. That said...

Barry Swizter in 2nd season won the superbowl as Head Coach..

Mike Tomlin in much the same situation is on the verge of doing the exact same thing...

I care to hear from you guys as to WHY NO ONE IS SAYING Tomlin is winning with Bill Cowhers team?

 

[Doomsay]

Everything you said here is true, except Barry didn't force himself in here. And he didn't draft the players, nor did he have anything to do with undermining Gailey or hiring the 'yes man' Campo. That's all Jerry. Switzer never belonged in the NFL, especially five years after being run out of Oklahoma. But someone brought him here and he deserves most of the blame.

Wade is marginally better, but he is the same mistake.

 

[Hostile]

I cut Jerry slack and thought he turned the corner too when he hired Parcells.

I think where we disagree is you seem to think everything changed that day and has stay changed.
Whereas I see him hiring a proven non-winner like Wade, micromanaging the staff, undermining the staff, cultivating a toxic environment - just like he did prior to the hiring of Parcells.

The one thing that has been better is the draft. And that is primarily due to Lacewell not being here and the system BP and Ireland put in place. Jerry still knows as much about college personnel now as he did 15 years ago. And he's been running the team the last two years the same way he did prior to 2003.

No, I don't think things have stayed changed.

However, I do see smarter investments in players and better drafts, which is exactly what I want from any GM. Whether it is Jerry or anyone else. That is the results from the GM that I am looking for and we are getting that.

I disagree about he is running the things the same as pre-Parcells. Tom Ciskowski and his staff are doing fantastic jobs with the Drafts and the hierarchy are paying attention. We're not in cap trouble, we're acquiring good talent, and we are still winning.

Am I satisfied with the results? No. I want Championships. But I don't see us screwing up like I did from Post Jimmy to Pre-Parcells.

So while I don't think things have stayed changed, I also don't see us back to the same old failed methods. He tried a softer approach Coach after Parcells wore this team down. I can't fault that even though I'm not happy with how soft. He interviewed 11 guys, that's a thorough job of looking for a Coach and other guys he interviewed are landing jobs. Tells me he looked at the best guys and made a choice.

Is it the right choice? I don't know and have some doubts. But the process was not the screwed up mess of the previous 3 hires.

 

[tyke1doe]

how much NFL experance did Jimmy Jonhson have when hired in 89?

Both Jerry Jones and Jimmy Johnson came into the league together. Both were novices, i.e., Jerry Jones didn't have much experience in selecting a coach. And since he wanted a coach he was familiar with and a coach who could let him interfere, he chose Jimmy. But that tune changed once Jimmy understood what it took to be successful.

How does that compare to Mr. Rooney - a seasoned veteran of an owner - selecting Tomlin, who had NFL coaching experience before becoming the coach of the Steelers?

It doesn't compare.

steelers won the superbowl in 05... look at this roster much of the same core players for Pittsburgh in 08.

So.

If a team wins back-to-back Super Bowls, that becomes more of a testament to continuity and a superior team than a random one win Super Bowl followed up by a few years later for a Super Bowl return.

No one is calling the Steelers of 05 one of the greatest teams every assembled. They were saying that about the Cowboys after their first Super Bowl win and definitely after their second.

I agree however keep in mind the 06 steelers that went 8-8 had there QB go face first on a motorcycle into a chrysler... and ALMOST DIE.. next he had a apendix attack before the season started as well.. they finshed the season 6-2.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.
We don't know whether the Steelers would have been better or not. So I can't factor that into the equation.

different coaching styles BUT ITS JERRY WHO created the asylum NOT Barry.

So maybe this should be a comparison between Rooney and Jones and not Switzer and Tomlin.

so you are telling me the steelers this season are winning with offence? NO.. defense.. see dick lebou D corrdinator and one of the best d's in the past 30 years...

No, they're winning on defense, but Big Ben's tenacity and the offensive line's improvement through the course of the season is a big part of that. You can't win games unless you score. And Pittsburgh's defense isn't scoring all those points.

Ben Troy P, Hines Ward.. Oh and they have the DPY James Harrison.(another cowher player)

Hines Ward isn't Hall of Fame caliber, not compared to Michael Irvin.
Troy P? Maybe.
Big Ben? Juries still out.
Harrison? You think he's as dominant as Haley? He still has much to prove.

Moore has done a ok job that said I dont get what your point is here. Nearly all the defenseive players are cowher players

And many of the Cowboys are Parcells players? And?

At some point in any coaching transition, you're going to have players who were picked by the former regime. But Cowher isn't coaching anymore. Tomlin is.

Second, I think there's a big and obvious difference in Tomlin's demeanor and Switzers'. Now, longevity is going to be critical for Tomlin. But I like what I see, and in no way do I see Switzer as a fitting comparison to Tomlin.
No way.

hummm... again different coaching styles Barry was very good at handling the media... however he was a colorful guy just who he is... Tomlin is like wallpaper using tomlinisums "it was a tuff game we went out there and played footbal" you mention swizter arrest at the airport.. so what... it was not intential.. yet how many of you remember Santino Holmes got ARRESTED THIS SEASON FOR POT IN HIS CAR YET NEVER GOT SUSPENED BY THE NFL. Also before the seaosn started James Harrison has a physical altercation with his wife that was dismissed by the courts when he took anger managemet classes... I could go on to site other things that have involved steeler players that have been brushed under the rug by the local media in Pittsburgh and never reported by the national media. but I do wonder if these things happened to cowboys players how that would have been treated.

Well, Dallas is high profile. Pittsburgh doesn't try to be. It's the difference between media coverage of Britney Spears' dysfunctional behavior and your neighbor's dysfunctional behavior. Britney craves the spotlight via her career choices. So she's going to get more attention. Your neighbor doesn't. Hence, less attention.

again the steeler run things different.... they dont have ESPN capmed out at there traning facility dallas does BUT for the record.. willie parker and Big Benthis season on more than one occasion BASHED there OC Bruces Ariens for play calling selection and lack of calling run plays... you just dont hear about it as much becasue ESPN for FOX Sports or whoever else is living at Valley Ranch... not the south side of Pittsburgh with the steelers....

And, hence, it doesn't become a distraction. And maybe that's why the Steelers are likely a more successful franchise than the Cowboys.

I hate the Steelers and want them to lose this Super Bowl. But I can't knock Rooney - who I think does it the RIGHT way - or Tomlin, who has taken a good team and gotten that team to the Super Bowl.

There are just too many points of differences between Tomlin and Switzer. That's why I think the comparison of the two is ridiculous.

 

[WV Cowboy]

I am equally amazed at how overrated he is as well. Everyone wants the "next Tomlin".

Other than inherit one of the most consistent NFL franchises with management capable of drafting solid personnel and a built-in Hall-of-Fame Defensive Coordinator with a proven scheme, I do not see how he has done this amazing job. The smartest thing he has done is not to tinker with what is not broken.

Take Tomlin out of that environment, I do not think he is at the top tier of NFL coaches like he is being pushed towards. In fact, as a gameday coach, some of his blunders on 4th down and time management gaffes are very Switzer-like.

I agree totally, but like you I do give him credit for not screwing it up.

Like you said, some of his "gunslinger" game-day decisions have been very stupid and will eventually come back and bite him in the rear.

*Opened the game with an on-sides kick that didn't work.
*Fake punts that have failed.
*Going for it on 4th down against us when he was two scores down.

He lucked out on each of these failures but he won't always be so lucky.

 

[Bach]

The draft has been better. Hopefully Ciskowski really is a great personnel man and Jerry will listen to him.

As for the other aspects of the team, Jerry is out there dictating much of the staff hires. This is similar to the pre-Parcells days. Still prone to bringing in name guys with no regards to chemistry, in some cases guys who no one else would touch with a ten foot pole.

People may try to downplay these issues, but you can't underestimate the problems caused when the team sees that the HC really has very little power. Wade is basically a glorified DC, much like Campo and much like Gailey (except on offense). Jerry is front and center and it's hard to have two masters and be successful.

 

[tyke1doe]

He lucked out on each of these failures but he won't always be so lucky.

Neither will any other coach.

It's amazing the length at which people will go to discredit someone. I'm sure if you looked at any great coach, you can find bonehead decisions (even Landry who decided not to force feed Tony Dorsett the ball in Super Bowl 13, a decision that likely cost the Cowboys a dominating win over the Steelers since the Steelers couldn't stop Dorsett).

Tomlin's coaching career has just gotten started so trying to say he's a great coach compared to other great coaches with longevity is pretty premature.

But the proof is in the pudding. He has taken the Steelers back to the Super Bowl.

Yes, Switzer did the same thing. But ... Switzer's NFL credentials when he got hired aren't anywhere near what Tomlin's was when he was hired. Factor in ownership and how Jerry Jones hires puppets who allow him to coach compared to Rooney who hires a coach, shows loyalty by sticking with him and then stepping out of the spotlight and it's easy to see the contrast.

Rooney searchs for a coach competent enough to lead his team so he won't have to undergo constant turnover and look what happens. From Chuck Knolls to Bill Cowher to now Mike Tomlin, Rooney proves he does his homework in getting the right man to coach the Steelers.

Meanwhile, Jerry Jones searches for coaches who are just happy to coach the ... Dallas Cowboys ... and who will play step and fetch it to his insatiable desire to coach the team.

We see whose strategy works best.

 

[Bach]

Rooney searchs for a coach competent enough to lead his team so he won't have to undergo constant turnover and look what happens. From Chuck Knolls to Bill Cowher to now Mike Tomlin, Rooney proves he does his homework in getting the right man to coach the Steelers.

The full jury may still be out on Tomlin, but no one can deny the approach the Steelers use. They have a great personnel department that seems to always look for good hardnosed football players. They don't get caught up in 'workout warriors' or projects or guys that slipped due to questionable character.

And just as important, once they name a HC they let him be in control of the team. The HC is the man in charge and everyone knows it.

Meanwhile, Jerry Jones searches for coaches who are just happy to coach the ... Dallas Cowboys ... and who will play step and fetch it to his insatiable desire to coach the team.

We see whose strategy works best.

Couldn't agree more. And it is unfathomable to see it done over and over, especially by someone who claims he want's to win as Jerry says he does. Of course that is with the caveat of him doing it his way, which has proven not to work.

 

[Alexander]

I disagree about he is running the things the same as pre-Parcells. Tom Ciskowski and his staff are doing fantastic jobs with the Drafts and the hierarchy are paying attention. We're not in cap trouble, we're acquiring good talent, and we are still winning.

By this time last year, Ireland was barely out the door. By this point, most of the major work that goes on all year long in the scouting realm was finished.

I am giving it one more year before I proclaim the unmitigated success of the relationship Jones has with the scouts and Ciskowski. Last year was outstanding, but we do not know how much of the effect was residual or the result of being more faithful to the relationship.

 

[WV Cowboy]

Rooney searchs for a coach competent enough to lead his team so he won't have to undergo constant turnover and look what happens. From Chuck Knolls to Bill Cowher to now Mike Tomlin, Rooney proves he does his homework in getting the right man to coach the Steelers.

Meanwhile, Jerry Jones searches for coaches who are just happy to coach the ... Dallas Cowboys ... and who will play step and fetch it to his insatiable desire to coach the team.

We see whose strategy works best.

Dude, ... after Knoll won 4, the Steelers have won one Super Bowl in 28 years.

And that one was tainted by the unquestionably horrible officiating.

 

[tyke1doe]

Dude, ... after Knoll won 4, the Steelers have won one Super Bowl in 28 years.

And that one was tainted by the unquestionably horrible officiating.

It's always the officiating.

Be that as it may, all of the Steelers coaches after (Knolls) have taken their teams to the Super Bowl. And, for the most part, they've kept that team competitive throughout the years.

Besides, do you know how difficult it is to get to the Super Bowl?

It took the Cowboys 14 years to return to their first Super Bowl between the Landry and Johnson era.

It took the Steelers 16 years between Knoll and Cowher. The Skins haven't been back in 18 years since Gibbs departed the first time.

Miami is going on more than 20 years since it saw its last Super Bowl under Shula.

Dynasties come once in a life time. Then after the Dynasty runs its course, there's a considerable lag time between Super Bowls.

The new era of free agency and the salary cap may expedite that time table. But it shouldn't be odd that a team goes a considerable period of time before their last run and their next one.

 

[Alexander]

Rooney searchs for a coach competent enough to lead his team so he won't have to undergo constant turnover and look what happens. From Chuck Knolls to Bill Cowher to now Mike Tomlin, Rooney proves he does his homework in getting the right man to coach the Steelers.

It is not just making the right hire for the coach. If anyone thinks that having the same individual (regardless of competency) is simply going to get better as a natural side effect of continuity then they are deluding themselves.

The Rooneys and the Pittsburgh model is simple. They have a philosophy. They have a mindset. They have a vision. They play Steeler football. They draft, hire coaches, sign players, all to that vision. It has been that way even all the way back to Chuck Noll. Strong running game, strong defense. Any Steeler team for the last 35 years is going to have those characteristics.

Continuity is not established by the man coaching. It is established from the organization first. There is a program in place that works and hires for the staff when attrition occurs. That is why you have seen situations like Switzer and Tomlin. The same effect can be seen at the college level with successful programs. It is in effect traditional. This is the brand of football they play and they make decisions based off that model. We do not have that and have not had that.

Jones has flip flopped from one philosophy to the other and finally seems to be resting with some of the remnants left by Coach Parcells. It has taken him but a year to have it all unravel because he simply does not get it. He continually tries to take models like what Coaches Johnson and Parcells had and add his special touch of Jerry and that is what blows up the entire mixture. He is the ultimate neophyte and still is after 20+ years. He fancies himself as expert each time he sees all three trophies and still believes he won the third doing it "his way".

Meanwhile, Jerry Jones searches for coaches who are just happy to coach the ... Dallas Cowboys ... and who will play step and fetch it to his insatiable desire to coach the team.

We see whose strategy works best.

It is already proven what works and what does not. Some will have to learn the hard way that it always starts at the top.

 

[MONT17]

Cowher won 1 SB in 15 years... maybe we should give the credit to the core group of players who have not missed a beat... or maybe we should give credit to Cowher OC who has the cards in the SB!


either way this takes away from what Cowher did because he only won 1 SB and the group he won it with is about to win without him!

 

[Hostile]

By this time last year, Ireland was barely out the door. By this point, most of the major work that goes on all year long in the scouting realm was finished.

I am giving it one more year before I proclaim the unmitigated success of the relationship Jones has with the scouts and Ciskowski. Last year was outstanding, but we do not know how much of the effect was residual or the result of being more faithful to the relationship.

How can it be residual when the man isn't standing there saying this guy would be better than that guy? Besides that, as I was pointing out when Ireland left, Ciskowski was the guy many thought was doing the best job of any of that department.

There's only so much a person can turn a blind eye to while looking for the sky to fall.

 

[WV Cowboy]

It's always the officiating.

Did you see the game ???

Be that as it may, all of the Steelers coaches after (Knolls) have taken their teams to the Super Bowl. And, for the most part, they've kept that team competitive throughout the years.

1 Super in 28 seasons.

Besides, do you know how difficult it is to get to the Super Bowl?

It took the Cowboys 14 years to return to their first Super Bowl between the Landry and Johnson era.

It took the Steelers 16 years between Knoll and Cowher. The Skins haven't been back in 18 years since Gibbs departed the first time.

Miami is going on more than 20 years since it saw its last Super Bowl under Shula.

Dynasties come once in a life time. Then after the Dynasty runs its course, there's a considerable lag time between Super Bowls.

The new era of free agency and the salary cap may expedite that time table. But it shouldn't be odd that a team goes a considerable period of time before their last run and their next one.

And longer than any of those for the Packers.

So why be so hard on Jones?

As a franchise we have been in more Super Bowls than any other, and have won as many as anyone else.

We have to take the bad with the good.

 

[Chief]

I'm not convinced the 2008 draft was that great.

It's too early to tell.

I think Jenkins and Bennett, in particular, have personality traits that are worrisome. There is no questioning their athletic talent, but there were motivation issues with them in college.

And I'm not too excited about Spencer, either. The talent is there, but something isn't right with the guy.

Competitiveness needs to be a bigger factor when they're deciding who to pick. Talent is important, but I think Jerry leans too far that way at the expense of competiveness and character.

You keep doing this year after year and before you know it, you have a shortage of leaders on your team.

I don't see this team winning another Super Bowl as long as Jerry is in charge, which could be another 10 or 15 years.

 

[WV Cowboy]

I don't see this team winning another Super Bowl as long as Jerry is in charge, which could be another 10 or 15 years.

That must suck.


Oh, and the 08 draft will turn out to be a good one I think. Better than some others we have suffered through.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Uh, Wade Phillips wasn't 'handed a Super Bowl calibre team'. In fact, this team wasn't crowned by the media as a 'Super Bowl calibre team' until after Wade's first 13-3 season. Just because the media prematurely annointed them as such doesn't make it true. It just means the Cowboys were totally overrated, just like Mike Tomlin (who's yet to prove anything). When you look at things realistically, Phillips inherited a 9-7 team.

I don't understand the hate for Switzer. Not that he was my favorite coach or anything, but he was handed the keys and he took us to the race and won.

 

[Bach]

That must suck.

Yes, it does. Does it suck any less if you think we'll win a Super Bowl yet don't?