Too many important loose ends right now

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,220
Reaction score
39,454
Way too soon to panic. When it comes down to it, NE won the superbowl with a mixed bag of running backs.

NE has won 4 SB's with a mixed bag of RB's because they depend on Brady to win games. NE is different than every team they can consistently compete for championships year after year despite a mixed bag at a lot of positions due to Brady and Belichick.
 

jnday

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,292
Reaction score
11,422
NE has won 4 SB's with a mixed bag of RB's because they depend on Brady to win games. NE is different than every team they can consistently compete for championships year after year despite a mixed bag at a lot of positions due to Brady and Belichick.

This is a great point that some fans refuse to listen to. The Pats running game is not the key to their offense at all. Dallas, on the other hand, has made a tough, physical running game as their identity. The running game plays a much larger role in the sucess of the Cowboys. I don't know why so many fans can't see it. Cowboy fans, of all people , should relate to this after the sucess of the 90's. They should embrace it. I understand young fans not understanding this. They are caught up in the glitz and glamour of this being a passing league where the running game is an afterthought. The formula that won Super Bowls still works into today's league. As a matter of fact, it has been successful in any era of football. Smash-mouth , physical football , where steam imposes their will on another team is my kind of football. It is winning football and it is intimidating to other teams because the league has become soft.
 

jnday

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,292
Reaction score
11,422
I honestly believe they could've passed up Gregory or at the very least they could've traded down from Jones and gotten a running back.

They coulda, shoulda , woulda done several things to get a RB, but after Gurley and Gordon, it was not worth it. It would have cost too much and would have been reaching. They played the draft smart to get the most talent which was best for the team, but they were never in s good position to get a decent RB. There is no doubt that they wanted one. Drafting at 27 was the worst position that the team could find themselves in if they wanted s RB. I am sure they wanted Gurley or Gordon, but the cost would have been so much that they would have lost the chance to get players that would improve the team overall.
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,220
Reaction score
39,454
This is a great point that some fans refuse to listen to. The Pats running game is not the key to their offense at all. Dallas, on the other hand, has made a tough, physical running game as their identity. The running game plays a much larger role in the sucess of the Cowboys. I don't know why so many fans can't see it. Cowboy fans, of all people , should relate to this after the sucess of the 90's. They should embrace it. I understand young fans not understanding this. They are caught up in the glitz and glamour of this being a passing league where the running game is an afterthought. The formula that won Super Bowls still works into today's league. As a matter of fact, it has been successful in any era of football. Smash-mouth , physical football , where steam imposes their will on another team is my kind of football. It is winning football and it is intimidating to other teams because the league has become soft.

It's been repeated by several FANS who seem to think that if NE can win with a committee of average backs so can the Cowboys. The Cowboys are not the Patriots the Patriots way wouldn't work for the Cowboys. The Cowboys have never reached a conference title game, SB or won a SB with a committee of "average" backs. They've used a number of backs over the years as part of a rotation but their greatest success was leaning on the likes of Don Perkins in the 60's, Duane Thomas and Tony Dorsett in the 70's and Emmitt in the 90's. The formula that won SB's decades ago still works just look at Seattle. The Seahawks have won with a great running game featuring an elite back, a great defense and a QB who's numbers are modest compared to a majority of the QB's in the league.
 

jday

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,321
Reaction score
13,284
I wouldn't go so far as to say they are happy with the current RBs on the roster, but I agree with you that the opportunity to get one of the top RBs was not there. It would have cost too much to trade up for Gurley or Gordon. I don't know how they had the second tier of RBs rated. I did notice that some of those RBs were not the type of physical runner that the team needed.

There were a few I would have been happier with than status quo available in the fourth round, but on the other hand, I also understand, respect, and appreciate their resolve to stick to their board and not over-value a player solely based on need.
 

AdamJT13

Salary Cap Analyst
Messages
16,583
Reaction score
4,529
I can appreciate your research but it doesn't take into account a "bellcow" RB that may have gotten injured or a team with a philosophy of running the ball and used a change of pace RB.

A running back who gets injured or who gets replaced by a change-of-pace back is, by definition, not a "bellcow" running back

And how many of those teams had franchise QB's who could at least cover any deficiency at the RB position.

The "we need a bellcow" crowd thinks that doesn't matter. All that matters is having one running back get the ball more than 320 times, or whatever their standard is.


In any event, what I do know is what formula Dallas used to be successful last year and I'm not sure why fans are so quick to disregard or minimize it.

Giving one running back that many carries didn't even get us to the NFL championship game, let alone to the Super Bowl and winning it.

Frankly, some people are too caught up in forcing this team to be just like some other team instead of realizing that there are many philosophies that work. The factors that determine whether you win or lose don't change (mainly passing effectiveness and pass defense), but there is no single "best" way to accomplish those things.
 

BigStar

Stop chasing
Messages
11,528
Reaction score
17,081
This promises to be a longer summer than usual with optimism brimming over and pom-poms dripping from every thread around here. Such is what 12-4 brings, especially after watching it take a perverse referee interpretation to shut it down.

But some needed house cleaning hangs over Valley Ranch, and it needs to be done. Too much hope and potential to let these things linger much longer.
DEZ BRYANT: Get Dez signed, or not. Whoever is holding this up needs a frying pan to the forehead. He's not going anywhere, nor does he want to, and the Calvin Johnson contract was a stupid thing done by a stupid franchise. Both sides need to step forward and get it done, or put this to bed before training camp and call the long-term deal off. This need not hang over training camp. Sign him or franchise him, but put it to bed before camp. Do it now, or just walk away from the table until next offseason.

RUNNING BACKS: I'm convinced now that this running back situation thing is more concerning to coaches than they let on. The Ben Tate and Felix Jones tryouts weren't for just camp bodies. They're worried. Joseph Randle only runs one basic set of plays out of one formation, and I don't think the coaches have a lick of faith in him. Darren McFadden is not a feature back in their eyes either, and while I think they like Ryan Williams the most as a player, they certainly don't have hopes of him staying healthy as a lead horse. Teams that feature the run this much need a bellcow. Running back by committee is fine for pass-oriented teams, but not for what this team has become. I'm also convinced they didn't see Demarco Murray as the answer either.
Otherwise, it's Romo for 40+ passes a game again, and I know they don't want to expose him again to that punishment.

Part of me thinks Minnesota and Peterson are playing nice right now because they need to drive up his value before the Vikings will even consider a trade. They rightly can't sell a third-round pick to their fan base, so unless somebody comes forward with a meaty offer, that won't happen. Likewise, anyone of value who's younger is not going to be available for a song.

McClay and company know they have to address this, but so much of it is out of their control if they don't turn loose of high picks and good players, neither of which they want to do. I sense a little panic setting in here, and I'm not buying the happy face they're trying to put on this.


GREG HARDY: Obviously, this one's out of their control, but they want answers asap. Judge Henderson is taking his sweet time on this ruling, and I'm sure they want to get on to the federal courts to get this finalized. This lends itself to the possibility that a negotiation is going on because the NFL is going to look even more stupid when another ruling is completed overturned by the federal courts. Yes, the league wants to show a tough face on domestic violence, but they also need to show that they have an elementary grasp of the rules they have in place (and had at the time of the incident) if they want to be taken seriously as a governing body for player rules violations. They don't want every ruling going to federal court, and that's the precedent they're setting.

I think the Cowboys privately believe this is a 0-2 game suspension by rule, and they're OK to just sit back and "support the league's decision" as Hardy and the NFLPA takes this through the process. Our opinions of the matter aside, the rules were the rules at the time, and by that measure, this is actually should be just a slap on the wrist, and the NFL knows it. But with the intense focus on this issue after Ray Rice, they're trying to make something of substance stick.

The Cowboys need resolution here so they can build the roster and strategize accordingly.


BRANDON CARR: There's no doubt that Carr is overpaid, but there's also no doubt the Cowboys need him. Leverage belongs to Carr. Claiborne's health issues and the Cowboys logical desire to play Byron Jones as a free safety make Carr a vital piece to next season, and with a pass rush, he'll be a much better player. Still, that's an ugly cap hit with more looming behind it. I think he wins in the end, but they need to put it to bed in June.

I think the team is looking at passing more in 15 and agree with your post. They saw the limitations a run heavy scheme caused in the playoffs (any team can stick around with this formula) and believe they think they are being proactive in regards to the RB position. I personally have no problem with Dez replacing Murray's production. You put a team away early, you change the course of the game; NE. Scared offense only gets you so far; we squeeked by DET and had no answer for a hobbled Rodgers. Wouldn't have hurt to put up some points in the first half while we "sputtered away" offensive possessions "establishing Murray", etc. I know GB was surely thankful that we didn't "try" until the hail mary to Dez, etc. "Why did you wait until the second half to establish what could have been the go to player?" We would have welcomed the 6th SB if Dez was our go to weapon instead of Murray.
 
Last edited:

CCBoy

Well-Known Member
Messages
47,030
Reaction score
22,617
One can also acquire the habit of continually cleaning one's finger nails, but just being pragmatic...

The offensive tackle position and interior line positions are pack full of talent and alternatives. Great depth

The defensive end position has four very strong to top shelf players, in Lawrence, Gregory, Hardy, and Mincey. Add in Bishop and what can one with for as to depth and talent in this dominant need position?

As to cornerback, one can only wish for a sum of four dependable to strong corners. Let's take a look here: Scandrick, Jones, Carr, Claiborne, White, and Patmon. If the Cowboys only keep four as last season, c'mon, that is a strength position now.

Now, with three of the most important positions on a team, being quality depth and strong talent...I'm really now going to spend much of my own time trying to calculate whether indicators prove the sky is falling or not.
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,220
Reaction score
39,454
How do you there isn't one?

The only backup plan they could have at this point is making a trade but you would have to have a willing trade partner. Would be difficult finding a team willing to trade a quality back the closer we get to opening day. The Cowboys could open themselves up to overpaying in a trade if they get desperate.

I would certainly hope Ray Rice isn't a backup plan the PR nightmare and distraction he would bring could disrupt the entire 2015 season. If the Cowboys have to start scrambling in July and August for a better RB can't see much good coming from it.
 

Dodger12

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,142
Reaction score
3,532
The "we need a bellcow" crowd thinks that doesn't matter. All that matters is having one running back get the ball more than 320 times, or whatever their standard is.

Giving one running back that many carries didn't even get us to the NFL championship game, let alone to the Super Bowl and winning it.

You're taking the argument to the extreme. I think folks are looking for a lead/#1 RB that can move the chains. No one is going to replicate Murray's stats but it's the philosophy that matters. You devalue the running game and it's effect on the passing game, as well as the game's outcome. I don't and neither does the team who have been drafting OL on day one for years now. Why is that?

And BTW, while using Murray as the "bellcow" didn't get us to the SB or NFC Championship game, it certainly beat 8 and 8. We were a bad call away from beating GB.
 

big dog cowboy

THE BIG DOG
Staff member
Messages
101,920
Reaction score
112,958
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I honestly believe they could've passed up Gregory or at the very least they could've traded down from Jones and gotten a running back.

The problem with that is A. they miss out on a top 10 talent and B. they get a RB that is no different that what is on the roster. With upgrading the pass rush as the number one need this off season the Cowboys easily made the correct decision by drafting Gregory.
 

5Stars

Here comes the Sun...
Messages
37,847
Reaction score
16,869
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
You're taking the argument to the extreme. I think folks are looking for a lead/#1 RB that can move the chains. No one is going to replicate Murray's stats but it's the philosophy that matters. You devalue the running game and it's effect on the passing game, as well as the game's outcome. I don't and neither does the team who have been drafting OL on day one for years now. Why is that?

And BTW, while using Murray as the "bellcow" didn't get us to the SB or NFC Championship game, it certainly beat 8 and 8. We were a bad call away from beating GB.

Right...the big bad Murray alone is what made this team go 12-4. If only Murray did not fumble at the wrong time...but it was not his fault, he led this team to 12-4. I'm not sure this team can compete this season without him.

Now, if Murray would have played a few down on defense, Rodgers would have been sacked at least 12 times!
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,220
Reaction score
39,454
Giving one running back that many carries didn't even get us to the NFL championship game, let alone to the Super Bowl and winning it.

But it did help get the Cowboys over the 8-8 hump and earn them their first playoff win in 5 years. It helped Romo have the most efficient season of his career and he looked the best he's ever looked in the playoffs.
 

5Stars

Here comes the Sun...
Messages
37,847
Reaction score
16,869
CowboysZone LOYAL Fan
But it did help get the Cowboys over the 8-8 hump and earn them their first playoff win in 5 years. It helped Romo have the most efficient season of his career and he looked the best he's ever looked in the playoffs.

Uhhh....FYI....Murray was on the teams that went 8-8. How come he did not do it sooner? smh
 

AdamJT13

Salary Cap Analyst
Messages
16,583
Reaction score
4,529
You're taking the argument to the extreme. I think folks are looking for a lead/#1 RB that can move the chains. No one is going to replicate Murray's stats but it's the philosophy that matters.

The philosophy of giving one running back the vast majority of carries does not matter at all.

You devalue the running game and it's effect on the passing game, as well as the game's outcome. I don't and neither does the team who have been drafting OL on day one for years now. Why is that?

You don't think the offensive line matters to a team's passing effectiveness?

And if the team thought having one back getting almost all of the carries was important, don't you think it would have re-signed Murray OR drafted a "lead" running back OR signed a free agent whose career high was more than 223 carries? Instead, the team did none of those. Why is that?

And BTW, while using Murray as the "bellcow" didn't get us to the SB or NFC Championship game, it certainly beat 8 and 8. We were a bad call away from beating GB.

So your standard for success is being better than 8-8? Wow.
 

ActualCowboysFan

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,416
Reaction score
9,498
The problem with that is A. they miss out on a top 10 talent and B. they get a RB that is no different that what is on the roster. With upgrading the pass rush as the number one need this off season the Cowboys easily made the correct decision by drafting Gregory.

Seriously, DE and RB aren't on a similar stratosphere in terms of importance. Add in the significant talent discrepancy between RG and the available backs and that was a no brainer.
 

KJJ

You Have an Axe to Grind
Messages
62,220
Reaction score
39,454
Forget the PR nightmare. The problem Rice has is a decline in talent.

Had it not been for Rice's off the field disaster he would have been a much better option than McFadden. Rice hasn't declined in talent as much as McFadden. Rice is only 2 years removed from four straight 1100 plus yard rushing seasons while McFadden hasn't seen a 1000 yard season since 2010 and that was his only one. One down season doesn't mean Rice's tank is empty. McFadden hasn't rushed for more than 707 yards the past 4 seasons and has averaged 3.3 a carry the past 3 seasons which is the lowest in the league for a back not named Trent Richardson.

Rice's lack of rushing success in 2013 can be blamed a lot on the lack of success the Ravens had as a team going 8-8. Joe Flacco had an awful season in 2013 tossing more int's than TD's. His passer rating was a dismal 73.1 which was the lowest of his career. No one played well for the Ravens that season and although Rice didn't produce in the running game he caught 58 passes out of the backfield. He would have been terrific coming out of the backfield for the Cowboys with his quickness. Had it not been for his issues I would have taken him easily over McFadden.
 
Last edited:

TheMarathonContinues

Well-Known Member
Messages
84,022
Reaction score
76,730
They would have to traded up which would have cost too much or they would have drafted a massive reach , which is dumb drafting. The Cowboys were in the worst possible position to draft a quality RB without it costing too much. Things just didn't.'t go their way. This doesn't mean that they are happy with the current RBs on the roster. I think they see the problem with having a roster full of below average RBs when they are a running team. I still think that another RB will be signed if there is anyway possible to work out a decent trade. The RB position is just as important to this team as Emmitt was to the 90's Cowboys. The one thing that may prevent trading for a RB is ego. Jerry and many fans think the line is so good that anybody can run behind the line and produce . This is arrogant thinking. It takes a combination of good line play and a good RB to produce a great running game.

But if its your guy you go and get him. Fredericks was a potential reach. Some boards had him as a 3rd round pick. Cowboys took him in the late 1st.

Cowboys could've traded down from the 1st and compiled another pick and gotten Coleman if they truly wanted him or any of those backs. They had plenty of chances to get Ajaye. I just don't believe they valued the backs in this draft like everyone else did. I think they believe Ryan Williams and Joseph Randle were of the caliber of anyone they could've taken in this draft aside from Gurley and Gordon.

The draft was full of names, but there were only 3 that I thought may be an upgrade over what the Cowboys had and two of them were taken before the Cowboys could pick in the first round. So, I would like to think the Cowboys are happy with what they have, but at the same time, they didn't have a whole lot of opportunities to address the position after they decided to take Randall Gregory. Which makes me wonder, who do the Cowboys take if Randall Gregory didn't fail the test at the Combine?

Well that's my stance as well. I honestly believe that it was either Gurley or Gordon they'd consider taking. Anyone behind that.......it would've took a massive drop.

That is a interesting question. I don't think they saw Gregory falling like he did so who do they take if he doesn't? Possibly go linebacker I believe.


Or linemen.
 
Top