CFZ Trent Dilfer and 13 other guys

[jazzcat22]

The problem is when you pay the non-elite QB you can’t build a good enough team to carry them which is why you shouldn’t be paying the non elite QB like they are elite.

Not really.
As "elite" QB's get highly paid, it still can prevent a team from bringing in better talent at other supporting positions.
That can still affect a top QB. We seen it many times.
Mahomes is considered the best QB in the NFL right now. But yet his OL vs. TB in the SB could not protect him, therefore he could not do it on his own being "elite"

If Burrow, either elite or getting there, if he had an OL, I think they beat the Rams in the SB, as well, would have beat KC in the AFCCG again.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

I disagree..

The league has been built to make all these teams similar.

The QB and coaching is what gives teams an edge over the other.

If you don’t have the elite QB then building the team is more critical.

The problem is when you pay the non-elite QB you can’t build a good enough team to carry them which is why you shouldn’t be paying the non elite QB like they are elite.

I disagree on paying the QBs. its how you build a team. people tend to look at averages to make the case, but you have to look at the cap hit. two years ago, Dak had 17M cap hit on a 182M salary cap. less than 10%. last year it was 19M on a 208M+ cap. again less than 10%. so they should have been able to build a team. the issue is not just QB and coaching. its GM's ability to make the right moves and build the right team. Eagles, made trades, ended up with two first round picks and were in superbowl last year. last year they had the 15th pick, decided to trade it for one of the top 5 WRs. they have one of the best defenses in the league that sustained their level of play throughout the season. If Grapolo and SF can make it to the superbowl and have the lead at half time, then the cowboys should be able to as well. instead we decide to make Zeke highest paid RB and insist on him playing/starting because we paid him when Pollard clearly was the better player. We decide to break up one of the better WR groups, by trading our top WR for a 5th round pick and let the other WR who was producing go because we didn't want to pay 8M a year, having 20M on the cap. that's our GM.

 

[CATCH17]

Not really.
As "elite" QB's get highly paid, it still can prevent a team from bringing in better talent at other supporting positions.
That can still affect a top QB. We seen it many times.
Mahomes is considered the best QB in the NFL right now. But yet his OL vs. TB in the SB could not protect him, therefore he could not do it on his own being "elite"

If Burrow, either elite or getting there, if he had an OL, I think they beat the Rams in the SB, as well, would have beat KC in the AFCCG again.

Mahomes losing in the Super Bowl is not really good evidence he couldn’t carry his team lol. Dude was in the Super Bowl.

Elite QBs and rookie QB contracts are everything.

I do agree that even paying Elite QBs makes it nearly impossible to win but you have to pay those guys.

Paying the non-elite QBs is a recipe to not win a championship.

This past Chiefs team that won a championship imo was not a very good team. They just have Mahomes.

 

[gtb1943]

A guy catching the critical pass on his helmet helps.
LUCK has a factor as well

 

[CATCH17]

I disagree on paying the QBs. its how you build a team. people tend to look at averages to make the case, but you have to look at the cap hit. two years ago, Dak had 17M cap hit on a 182M salary cap. less than 10%. last year it was 19M on a 208M+ cap. again less than 10%. so they should have been able to build a team. the issue is not just QB and coaching. its GM's ability to make the right moves and build the right team. Eagles, made trades, ended up with two first round picks and were in superbowl last year. last year they had the 15th pick, decided to trade it for one of the top 5 WRs. they have one of the best defenses in the league that sustained their level of play throughout the season. If Grapolo and SF can make it to the superbowl and have the lead at half time, then the cowboys should be able to as well. instead we decide to make Zeke highest paid RB and insist on him playing/starting because we paid him when Pollard clearly was the better player. We decide to break up one of the better WR groups, by trading our top WR for a 5th round pick and let the other WR who was producing go because we didn't want to pay 8M a year, having 20M on the cap. that's our GM.

“This one time an overpaid QB made the Super Bowl.”

These are outliers and they still didn’t win.

Its obvious that overpaying a normal to slightly above average QB is a recipe to not win a championship.

 

[gtb1943]

Average or slightly above average QBs can get hot - Flacco maybe the best example
Foles. Eli.
Then there are those carried by their D's which most prominently were Dilfer and Brad Johnson.

Mahoomes is the best example of a QB that actually CAN carry a team. VERY FEW of those ever.

A QB like Mahoomes gives you the best shot at the SB - no doubt of that. But a team has to be reasonable about expectations. There was only one Brady; it seems pretty clear there is only one Mahoomes. So it is NOT reasonable to expect to get one though you try your best.

So a team gets the best QB they can get and then its up to the Front Office and Coaching Staff to figure out a way to win with him

 

[SinceDayOne]

Eli Manning (x2), Brad Johnson, Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, Matt Stafford... and those are just in the last 20 years or so.

You tried.

Let's talk Eli a bit. He is obviously one of 13 who has quarterbacked two SB winners. But talent wise he had no where the arm or seasonal stats that his brother and others on the list possessed. However I think Eli is the poster boy for outside intangibles...perhaps the only one. His dad was a good QB and his bro was elite. It appears to me that Eli was somehow motivated by all of that and actually performed somewhat above his talent level. He might just have been gritty enough and driven enough by his dad and Peyton to out perform his skill set.

 

[ESisback]

There have been 57 Super Bowl. Thirteen QBs have been on the winning team at least twice. These same 13 have been the winning QB on 36 of the 57 (63%). Also, in 42 of the games (74%) one of these 13 have been a starting QB. Six times both of the starters in the SB have been one of the 13. Some of them have won with rosters that differed quite a lot. At least three have won with different head coaches. Two have won with completely different NFL teams.

Point is the QB matters in the NFL. They matter a lot. That is why they are paid twice as much and more as any of the other players. That is why any college QB that show potential is going to get drafted early regardless of "red flags" in their resume. Many of the draftees end up being disappointments and even "busts." But every teams management is looking for the next "real thing."

Some fans look at stats like this and respond with something like, "Look at Trent Dilfer, yuck yuck." Dilfer stand alone ability as a QB was no where near "elite." He probably is one of the least talented QBs to start a SB. But he had some positives going for him also. His Ravens had a great defense...one of the top 5 or so in the SB era. They have a very good running attack. They had a coach who for that season understood what he had and how to use it. And he had Dilfer who listened to the coaches and managed the game like he was told. He never went rogue and tried to the the super hero QB. He filled his role and was a big part of a team that was at the right time/right place and all the parts worked.

If you can get the "elite" QB then your odds of winning go up. But it can be done sometimes with a Trent Dilfer type if everything else aligns perfectly (rare IMO).

Which is why, IMHO, that those that guarantee failure sound so dumb.

 

[CowboysRule]

People always point to Dilfer about being able to win with an average to below average QB. The guy played on pretty much the best defense in NFL history. They allowed something like 10 points a game that season and allowed a singular TD in the playoffs. Any of us could've QB'd that team to a super bowl victory. We don't have that kind of defense, no team currently does. So we must rely on our QB more...and you see the results.

 

[jazzcat22]

People always point to Dilfer about being able to win with an average to below average QB. The guy played on pretty much the best defense in NFL history. They allowed something like 10 points a game that season and allowed a singular TD in the playoffs. Any of us could've QB'd that team to a super bowl victory. We don't have that kind of defense, no team currently does. So we must rely on our QB more...and you see the results.

Yeah, but also consider, the defense was that good, however the offense only needed to score enough to be over that 10 PPG, so Dilfer did his job and got them into scoring position.
Yes the defense helped with TO's, but he still got those scores.

So in 2000, Tony Banks started 8 games and went 5-3
Trent Dilfer started 8 games and went 7-1...then onto win the SB.
So why did that defense not win more games for Banks?

The defense gave up a little over 10 PPG (165 points), but the offense scored a little over 20 PPG (333 points)
Not shabby for a horrible QB as some want to portray him.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2000.htm

 

[CowboysRule]

Yeah, but also consider, the defense was that good, however the offense only needed to score enough to be over that 10 PPG, so Dilfer did his job and got them into scoring position.
Yes the defense helped with TO's, but he still got those scores.

So in 2000, Tony Banks started 8 games and went 5-3
Trent Dilfer started 8 games and went 7-1...then onto win the SB.
So why did that defense not win more games for Banks?

The defense gave up a little over 10 PPG (165 points), but the offense scored a little over 20 PPG (333 points)
Not shabby for a horrible QB as some want to portray him.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2000.htm

They did go 5 straight games without scoring an offensive TD so I'm not sure you can say Dilfer did his job...

 

[CowboyoWales]

It’s not just Dilfer….

Nick Foles, Eli Manning TWICE, Joe Flacco, Matt Stafford….Cam Newton and Matt Ryan have made Super Bowls…Big Ben sucked early on in his career when Steelers won the first ring.

You don’t need a elite defense or s elite qb.

That's fair, however, you need those playing in positions of influence to step up when (as is likely in the play-offs) your team has to overcome adversity.

 

[Hadenough]

stepped up or played better. they were what they were. it takes the right team and right support for a team to win with a non-elite QB.

and yes, turnovers have to stop. but this past year was out of character for turnovers for Dak. not sure the reasons behind it. but if you look at all these teams who went to post season success (minimally making it to the superbowl), their teams improved in the last half of the season (defense, offense). they go into playoffs with a momentum, but Cowboys tend to go the other way. our defense was dominant first half of season and was average in second half. our run game was average. our WR group was average and teams figured out our scheme and we struggled. we somehow have to have more momentum and play our better ball second half of the season.

That is true! I'm not sure if it's a players mindset or coaching but the Patriots in their best years would never start off strong. It's like they knew they were gonna be in a marathon and to save something for the end.

 

[Verdict]

Can you win a SB with Dak?

1. Not if he continues to throw INTs at the rate he has.

2. Not if he can’t be more consistent. You have to win multiple playoff games to win a SB. You can’t have QBs have “stinkers” and win, most of the time. So the QB has to play well enough to not cost his team the game. (That’s a tall order for Dak).

3. At $40M per year it’s going to be difficult to build a team around him. In two years is he going to win one being paid $55M per year? The odds are against it without Dak substantially improving.

Dak can win a SB for the Cowboys but it is fairly unlikely to happen. But I will say Dak’s odds may have improved slightly by getting rid of Moore and may improve a bit more if we can strengthen up our run defense.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

That's fair, however, you need those playing in positions of influence to step up when (as is likely in the play-offs) your team has to overcome adversity.

For sure you do. If Romo stepped up when the playoffs came? We would at least be in a Conference Championship. Mediocrity can win you a game in September. Not in December or January. Gotta step it up when the playoffs come around. Can’t escape it.

 

[CowboyoWales]

For sure you do. If Romo stepped up when the playoffs came? We would at least be in a Conference Championship. Mediocrity can win you a game in September. Not in December or January. Gotta step it up when the playoffs come around. Can’t escape it.

Yep, this is the curse, both Romo and Dak don't have the ability to execute when the pressure's on and that's what defines a winner.

 

[DandyDon1722]

Not sure if you watched those QBs play but they stepped up their game in the playoffs.
Of course Dilfer rode the defense but the others performed well. Sure having a strong defense helps and it's a team game but Foles was playing like a possessed man and Eli was just in a zone. Those SB winning QBs were making plays and not turning the ball over. Dak is too inconsistent and can only find his zone against the NFC east.

Nope = Eli wasn't in a zone and he wasn't terrible just average and very lucky.

He was the benefactor of two of the greatest defensive playoff runs in NFL history. Combined in both SB years the Giant's defense gave up 15 PPG in the playoffs which is insane considering you are playing against the best QB's. What is even more ridiculous is their regular-season defense was awful.

Then of course, there's absolutely no explaining the dropped INT's that he threw right into the defender's hands along with 49ers muffing TWO punts that led to TD's in the Championship game not to mention Tyree's catch.

 

[gtb1943]

Yep, this is the curse, both Romo and Dak don't have the ability to execute when the pressure's on and that's what defines a winner.

OR just maybe others did not step up as well

Blaming a QB for a team loss is moronic.

Now if you have a lead with seconds to go and throw a stupid pick 6 to lose the game, then yes YOU blew it.

But that does not happen that often.

Playing below expectations in the playoffs? Happens more often then not

Peyton Mannings career stats in the playoffs STANK. His last SB win was IN SPITE of him

People seem to also forget the other sides D has a lot to say about how a QB performs

Look at the HOF QBs that did not do well against the Great Defenses like the Ravens and Bucs? Are those Guys suddenly bums?

EVERYTHING has to go right for a team to win the SB. Otherwise its arguable that Brady and BB and the Pats should have won TWICE as many as they did.
Tom Brady did not step up in the 2007 SB against the Giants. But now he is a bum?

Both Tony and Dak were horribly handicapped by head coaching. Wade Phillips and Jason Garret were POOR HCs. and too many of our staff were average.

Now MM has a ring; has some chops and things seem to be going better. Just Maybe Dak gets a ring because of THAT. We shall see.

 

[TheMarathonContinues]

Yep, this is the curse, both Romo and Dak don't have the ability to execute when the pressure's on and that's what defines a winner.

I disagree I’ve seen them both do it. Just not when it truly mattered. This team just seems cursed. Guys drop picks when it matters, passes, throw picks…Dak was the worst player on the field so I can’t write that off but I don’t remember seeing many guys just step up. In part that’s why the Eagles lost the SB. No one wanted to step up with Hurts.

 

[Aerolithe_Lion]

Let's talk Eli a bit. He is obviously one of 13 who has quarterbacked two SB winners. But talent wise he had no where the arm or seasonal stats that his brother and others on the list possessed.

This is a common misconception; Eli always had a stronger arm than Peyton

Being accurate deep =/= arm strength