True Crime thread

[MichaelWinicki]

Also have to keep in mind the Girl Scout murders were a crime of opportunity that wasn't...

What I mean by that is someone had to be familiar with the layout camp and the schedule of the camp, i.e. when campers were actually going to be there.

This wasn't as easy as "Hey, I'm going to pick up some hitch-hiker or prostitute along the road and murder them". The killings at Camp Scott needed far more preparation. And the killer simply couldn't drive up to the back of the tent, get out and attack the 3 girls. They had to go wandering around in the woods to reach the point of destination and it was going to require some work.

 

[JohnnyTheFox]

Interesting angle, I just do not believe his did it.

Here's what someone else posted in a true crime forum about Myers and the possibility he was the one responsible for the 3 Girl Scouts being murdered...

"In each case, except possibly Shawn Williams, Myers appears to have been acquainted to some degree with the victim. In every case, no exception, no stealth was involved, and each victim was alone when taken. The Girl Scout case doesn't fit well with this since the victims were strangers to him, and there was more than one victim present at the time of the attack. Killers do change their MO, but one might expect those killers to be smarter than Myers who bragged to someone that he knew how to dispose of women's bodies, and that Rocky Point would be a good place to dump a body. Myers was subequently tied by DNA evidence to two women (Williams and Marzano) whose bodies had been found at, you guessed it, Rocky Point."

Also what little DNA evidence there is in the case points toward a native American origin. Have no idea is Myers was native American.

Found a pic of him somewhere on the interwebs last night and he sure doesn't look native American. Wasn't there more than 1 set of DNA found at the murder site, some of which were not native American which could possibly mean there was more than 1 killer?

 

[JohnnyTheFox]

Also have to keep in mind the Girl Scout murders were a crime of opportunity that wasn't...

What I mean by that is someone had to be familiar with the layout camp and the schedule of the camp, i.e. when campers were actually going to be there.

This wasn't as easy as "Hey, I'm going to pick up some hitch-hiker or prostitute along the road and murder them". The killings at Camp Scott needed far more preparation. And the killer simply couldn't drive up to the back of the tent, get out and attack the 3 girls. They had to go wandering around in the woods to reach the point of destination and it was going to require some work.

Good point, the odds of a bad guy just happening on the camp one rainy night and committing the murders would have to be slim if not non existent. Perhaps Hart whom was living in the area knew the schedule/etc, who knows. So many unanswered questions about this case and it's looking like those poor families will never get a answer.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Found a pic of him somewhere on the interwebs last night and he sure doesn't look native American. Wasn't there more than 1 set of DNA found at the murder site, some of which were not native American which could possibly mean there was more than 1 killer?

This is the quote I was referencing...

"In 1989, DNA testing was conducted that showed three of the five probes matched Hart's DNA. Statistically, DNA from 1 in 7,700 Native Americans would obtain these results."

Does it mean the other two samples were something other than native American? Or does it mean the other two samples were too degraded (or were insufficient) to tell?

I don't know...

 

[Seven]

This is the quote I was referencing...

"In 1989, DNA testing was conducted that showed three of the five probes matched Hart's DNA. Statistically, DNA from 1 in 7,700 Native Americans would obtain these results."

Does it mean the other two samples were something other than native American? Or does it mean the other two samples were too degraded (or were insufficient) to tell?

I don't know...

Soooooo....first thing. First thought.

There is an inconclusive result due to a peripheral variable not expected. How was the evidence handled? From the police arriving on scene, crime scene investigators, up to and including, storage and the actual testing facility.

I mean, there's many a slip twixt a cup and a lip. Evidence, physical valid evidence, HAS to be handled with extreme kid gloves. From inception and most importantly, throughout the process.

IMO.....the authorities screwed the pooch. They know it.

Therefore, we'll never know. Not the first time, unfortunately. We all jumped for joy with the discovery of DNA testing and absolute results.......enter the human element factor.......always nose-dives the curve.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Soooooo....first thing. First thought.

There is an inconclusive result due to a peripheral variable not expected. How was the evidence handled? From the police arriving on scene, crime scene investigators, up to and including, storage and the actual testing facility.

I mean, there's many a slip twixt a cup and a lip. Evidence, physical valid evidence, HAS to be handled with extreme kid gloves. From inception and most importantly, throughout the process.

IMO.....the authorities screwed the pooch. They know it.

Therefore, we'll never know. Not the first time, unfortunately. We all jumped for joy with the discovery of DNA testing and absolute results.......enter the human element factor.......always nose-dives the curve.

Oh I don't disagree with your take.

I look at infamous crime after infamous crime during the 60's, 70's & 80's and it's disappointing how many crime scenes weren't processed as crisply as they are today. This crime, Martha Moxley, the Burger Chef murders... The list is endless.

 

[Seven]

Oh I don't disagree with your take.

I look at infamous crime after infamous crime during the 60's, 70's & 80's and it's disappointing how many crime scenes weren't processed as crisply as they were today. This crime, Martha Moxley, the Burger Chef murders... The list is endless.

Yessir, Michael.

There was a facility, in Virginia I think, that was shut down due to sloppy, very sloppy testing. I mean, these technicians would walk out of the lab with their gloves, mask and lab coats on and USE THE RESTROOM!! Wouldn't change equipment in between testing evidence. Rinsed beakers when SOP called for them to be thrown out after test.

Mind boggling.

I wonder if there was a Native American involved, at any point, with this case.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yessir, Michael.

There was a facility, in Virginia I think, that was shut down due to sloppy, very sloppy testing. I mean, these technicians would walk out of the lab with their gloves, mask and lab coats on and USE THE RESTROOM!! Wouldn't change equipment in between testing evidence. Rinsed beakers when SOP called for them to be thrown out after test.

Mind boggling.

I wonder if there was a Native American involved, at any point, with this case.

Interesting point.

I will say that even without DNA evidence against him, I believe Hart was the perp. Too many things point to him.

I'd be stunned if he was not involved.

 

[Seven]

Interesting point.

I will say that even without DNA evidence against him, I believe Hart was the perp. Too many things point to him.

I'd be stunned if he was not involved.

Oh, I agree. Absolutely.

I guess what I'm trying to convey is if the authorities hadn't contaminated evidence from crime scene arrival to "resolution" we'd have an answer.

Damn shame for the victims families.......and us part time sleuths.

 

[JohnnyTheFox]

Another local case i have always been interested in was the disappearance of Charlotte Kinsey and Cinda L. Pallett whom were abducted from the Oklahoma State Fair in September of 1981. They vanished when Royal Russel Long offered them a job unloading stuffed animals for a few bucks an hour. To this day their remains have never been found.
All in all Long had 3 known victims, 4 that were linked to him and being that he was a Carnie and a long haul truckers it is presumed their could have been more.
Long was charged with the murders of the 2 girls from OKC but the case was dropped for lack of evidence. He was eventually caught/tried for the disappearance of another pair of girls one which escaped. He died in prison in 1993.
Charlotte June Kinsey & Cinda Leann Pallet- Missing 32 Years | Dean Marie Pyle Peters & Cold Cases (deaniepeters-missingangels.blogspot.com)

Here is an artist sketch{very accurate} of RRL

Very informative video on the case here, including interviews with Assistant DA Elliot, courtroom footage as well as the family. They sprayed Luminol in the trunk which provided an image of 2 small bodies as well as finding hair belonging to one of them in the car/home of RRL. What an inept Judge.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Another local case i have always been interested in was the disappearance of Charlotte Kinsey and Cinda L. Pallett whom were abducted from the Oklahoma State Fair in September of 1981. They vanished when Royal Russel Long offered them a job unloading stuffed animals for a few bucks an hour. To this day their remains have never been found.
All in all Long had 3 known victims, 4 that were linked to him and being that he was a Carnie and a long haul truckers it is presumed their could have been more.
Long was charged with the murders of the 2 girls from OKC but the case was dropped for lack of evidence. He was eventually caught/tried for the disappearance of another pair of girls one which escaped. He died in prison in 1993.
Charlotte June Kinsey & Cinda Leann Pallet- Missing 32 Years | Dean Marie Pyle Peters & Cold Cases (deaniepeters-missingangels.blogspot.com)

Here is an artist sketch{very accurate} of RRL

Very informative video on the case here, including interviews with Assistant DA Elliot, courtroom footage as well as the family. They sprayed Luminol in the trunk which provided an image of 2 small bodies as well as finding hair belonging to one of them in the car/home of RRL. What an inept Judge.

Not much out there on Long... Tried researching him, but not a lot there other than he was a real bad guy.

 

[JohnnyTheFox]

Not much out there on Long... Tried researching him, but not a lot there other than he was a real bad guy.

Nope, not a lot out there. And once again a perp dies in prison. And being especially he was a trucker, the bodies could have been buried here, his hometown or anywhere in between.
This is a nice little site that has a thread dedicated to him/his crimes as well as a lot of other crimes as well. Check it out !
WY - WY/OK - Royal Russell Long, 1970s and 1980s (websleuths.com)

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Nope, not a lot out there. And once again a perp dies in prison. And being especially he was a trucker, the bodies could have been buried here, his hometown or anywhere in between.
This is a nice little site that has a thread dedicated to him/his crimes as well as a lot of other crimes as well. Check it out !
WY - WY/OK - Royal Russell Long, 1970s and 1980s (websleuths.com)

Yeah, I'm big on websleuths.com

 

[timb2]

 

[JohnnyTheFox]

Wonder if he had any regrets on his deathbed? Guy was pure evil. Good riddance.

 

[timb2]

Wonder if he had any regrets on his deathbed? Guy was pure evil. Good riddance.

Lot of rage in him . It's kind of like a abused dog will just turn mean with no love. His childhood rage over his abusive father was the triggering point and fuel for his rage

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Lot of rage in him . It's kind of like a abused dog will just turn mean with no love. His childhood rage over his abusive father was the triggering point and fuel for his rage

No question Kuklinski did murder at least a couple people...

But, his overall exploits have been greatly exaggerated– Mostly by him.

He's another one of those guys who once they wound up in prison decided they were going to claim far more notoriety for themselves by confessing to crimes they had no part in or just making up crimes in general.

 

[Melonfeud]

Very interesting website here all dedicated to the 1977 Girl Scout murders in NE Oklahoma, It includes the timeline of the case, suspects, victims as well as transcripts of the pre trial and a pretty good wealth of other information
HOME (girlscoutmurders.com)
Nice video here of the location/etc

On I-10 east bound tween Benson& Wilcox AZ. there's big Boulder strewn ridge you gotta' pull( i've toted mobile homes & backhoes over it a thousand times in the past) and the rumored story is that back in the "70's" there was some kinda' Sumner camp/retreat operational in that immediate A.O. where the camps cook( a drifter type that was hired) flipped his wig& laid a few machete whacks to several of the campers one nite,,,the bloodhounds lost his trail somewhere along the general line of March coming up on the backside of Mt Graham( sole location of that endangered ' red squirrel' w.b.t.w. ? ain't all that very tasty to begin with & they ain't all that much bigger than a chipmunk,,, SHEESE ,their hardly worth the effort & 5-6 .22 rimfire cartridges it takes to limit out on 'em during the year long wildcat poaching season,,,ya know?

 

[Melonfeud]

Soooooo....first thing. First thought.

There is an inconclusive result due to a peripheral variable not expected. How was the evidence handled? From the police arriving on scene, crime scene investigators, up to and including, storage and the actual testing facility.

I mean, there's many a slip twixt a cup and a lip. Evidence, physical valid evidence, HAS to be handled with extreme kid gloves. From inception and most importantly, throughout the process.

IMO.....the authorities screwed the pooch. They know it.

Therefore, we'll never know. Not the first time, unfortunately. We all jumped for joy with the discovery of DNA testing and absolute results.......enter the human element factor.......always nose-dives the curve.

*Man, I'm telling ya, ain't nobody running Murica' just ain't never gonna be peaceably comfortable till every last blame of societal ILLS are laid at the entrance way of the RED MAN'S WIG-WAM o' LUV,,,,w.t.f.?

*Y'all are up to speed on the facts that there was never any unemployment or veneral disease here in MURICA'* till "those guys" showed up,, just saying

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Crime of the week..

I remember when I first heard about this crime– It turned my stomach it was so heinous.

For as bad as it was I had never heard of it until I came across it on one of those "We discuss lots of crimes" sites (the site itself was purchased by the "Court TV" folks several years ago and was shut-down not longer after).

For as bad as the crime was I've been surprised at how little press it has received over the years.

It's a crime that occurred long ago, November 1st, 1955 during a time when crimes involving mass murder weren't suppose to happen– And this one continues to be the worst one in the state of Colorado (thinking about the various mass shootings in Colorado over the years– that's saying something).

So what was the cause of this horrible crime?

A 23 year-old man hated his mother and was greedy.

It was no more complicated than that.

His saw his opportunity when his mother was going to be flying out of Stapleton Airport (Denver) to Portland, Oregon via United Flight 629.

In addition he saw this as a money-making opportunity...

You see during that time period, many airports offered life-insurance right on site, so prior to the plane taking off, the man, named John "Jack" Gilbert Graham managed to cram sticks of dynamite into his mother's luggage along with buying life insurance on his mother's life.

So at 6:59PM the plane took off and at about a height of 6,000 feet near Longmont, CO, the plane blew-up.

Wreckage was spread over huge area.

Included in that were 44 bodies. 15 crewman and 29 passengers, including a 13 month-old boy.

Authorities were able to put together what had happened relatively quickly, Graham was arrested, went to trial, found guilty and was executed on January 11th, 1957.

Yep, the worst mass murder in the history of the state of Colorado.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/ne...-son-blew-up-his-mothers-flight-over-colorado