Tucson Shop Owner & Employee Kill One Intruder, Wound Three

[Doomsday101]

So you basically are for the police doing racial profiling but kind of don't want to admit to it.

Interesting.

Do I think profiling has a place? to an extent yes, If I'm on the look out for a member of the skinheads my focus is not on a blackman. I find it stupid when people act as if certain factors should not be looked at when those factors play a big part.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

I have already given examples in other threads of how they can find illegal immigrants. So the question was answered before it was even asked if you ever cared to read things.

Such as?

Now answer my question...Are you for profiling or against it.

Depends on how one defines profiling. In the minds of opponents of this bill, any method used to identify illegal immigrant is inherently profiling, regardless of its nature. Personally, I share the Arizona governor's sentiments.

 

[CanadianCowboysFan]

Yes, I would. I have traveled in other countries and I respect their rights to know that people are in their country legally. The fact is America has long been too soft on this issue, and my state has decided we can't afford to be soft any more. It costs us in the hundreds of millions of dollars per year in lost taxes, unpaid medical bills, uninsured drivers, and dozens of other issues.

isn't part of what you say though offset by the labour the illegals provide (after all someone has to pick your fruit, dig your ditches, pick up your tray at McDonald's, illegals also eat, wear clothes, use cell phones etc so they also contribute.

Overall, you are likely correct, but the way you wrote it, it is like they are parasites who only take.

In the end though, whose fault is it that there is an illegal immigrant situation, probably the people who hire them, etc

Just like in the South Park episode where the future people "took er jobs" at the end, if it wasn't worthwhile for them to come, they wouldn't.

and before Doomsday starts yapping about why I care when I don't live in the US, we have an illegal problem here too, maybe not on your scale, but we do. It is the price you pay for living in rich countries, Europe has it too.

 

[Hostile]

A White man in Cochese County killed a Hispanic man in the aftermath of an argument.

The victim's family are claiming it is the result of this new law and are garnering all kinds of support.

Problem...the man who killed him is a drunk, not a Police Officer, and the Law isn't even in effect yet.

That is how bad this hysteria is getting.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Such as?

I will say this as a credit to you, You are a very smart individual. I am sure you an read other posts if you wish to so I am not going to go back and repeat myself.

Depends on how one defines profiling. In the minds of opponents of this bill, any method used to identify illegal immigrant is inherently profiling, regardless of its nature. Personally, I share the Arizona governor's sentiments.

I am not one of those that think just because you find an illegal immigrant and deport him that it means you are a racist. However history has shown us that it will happen...pulling people over and infringing on their rights over nothing other than skin color has happened and will happen.

 

[Hostile]

isn't part of what you say though offset by the labour the illegals provide (after all someone has to pick your fruit, dig your ditches, pick up your tray at McDonald's, illegals also eat, wear clothes, use cell phones etc so they also contribute.

Wow, fairly racist comments man. You really stereotype these people.

Look, I am going to be real honest here. I have worked in the construction industry for many years here in Arizona. A lot of long time friends of mine all over the industry are hurting. Part of that is because so many employers are willing to pay under the table to illegal workers. That way they avoid payroll taxes and all kinds of other stuff.

Unemployment is way too high here. These things hurt my state.

It is estimated that 25% of the uninsured drivers in this state are here illegally. You can't even begin to fathom how many friends I have had who have been injured in an accident and the other driver simply disappears back across the border. Meanwhile, our car insurance rates are soaring because Insurance companies have to pay for accidents not the fault of their drivers.

You should see the Emergency rooms here. Huge medical bills run up and then people disappear back across the border. Guess what that does to our health insurance rates.

Overall, you are likely correct, but the way you wrote it, it is like they are parasites who only take.

There are too many of them who do. That is the problem.

In the end though, whose fault is it that there is an illegal immigrant situation, probably the people who hire them, etc

Totally agree, and now my State is warning these employers that there will be serious consequences. I will be honest, that is the part about our Laws that I approve of the most. I have known many illegal aliens in my time in New Mexico and Arizona. Most of them are great people who simply want a better way of life. I would love to give it to them. I just want it to happen legally.

Just like in the South Park episode where the future people "took er jobs" at the end, if it wasn't worthwhile for them to come, they wouldn't.

My apologies. I have never seen an episode of South Park and have no idea what the reference is or the analogy made. I really know very little about most TV shows and pop culture. You probably have made a really cool analogy here, but I just don't get it.

and before Doomsday starts yapping about why I care when I don't live in the US, we have an illegal problem here too, maybe not on your scale, but we do. It is the price you pay for living in rich countries, Europe has it too.

Here's the thing, I refuse to simply say, "this is the way it is so we have to live with it." I want to do something about it.

BP made an outstanding point earlier about secure the borders first then enforce this Law. I tend to agree, but I see the wisdom in Arizona doing it this way too. If it sends more illegal aliens to other states and fewer to my state I will be interested to see how people from those states start reacting. I am willing to bet some gears will be slammed into reverse really fast.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

BP made an outstanding point earlier about secure the borders first then enforce this Law. I tend to agree, but I see the wisdom in Arizona doing it this way too. If it sends more illegal aliens to other states and fewer to my state I will be interested to see how people from those states start reacting. I am willing to bet some gears will be slammed into reverse really fast.

I am thinking that there are plenty of states that already have a bad issues with illegal immigration and not just Arizona...no I am not saying that in a smart mouth kind of way.

The point I think will be interesting is if they adopt the same kind of bill/law that arizona does or not.

I don't know the statistics of which state has more illegal aliens crossing over than other states but I imagine that , Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California have similar issues/numbers/problems with illegal aliens crossing over. Now other states that probably have a large number of illegal immigrants would be florida and new york off the top of my head although the crossing over point is obviously not the same. I wonder how many that do cross over the border in The south west states wind up just passing through to go to other states.

 

[Hostile]

I am thinking that there are plenty of states that already have a bad issues with illegal immigration and not just Arizona...no I am not saying that in a smart mouth kind of way.

I know there are. Nearly all of the border states have the very same issues. That is why I do not understand why any of them are boycotting us. Actually yes I do understand it. They know it will push illegal immigrants out of Arizona eventually and they will absorb more of the issue.

The point I think will be interesting is if they adopt the same kind of bill/law that arizona does or not.

I think eventually they will have to.

I don't know the statistics of which state has more illegal aliens crossing over than other states but I imagine that , Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California have similar issues/numbers/problems with illegal aliens crossing over. Now other states that probably have a large number of illegal immigrants would be florida and new york off the top of my head although the crossing over point is obviously not the same. I wonder how many that do cross over the border in The south west states wind up just passing through to go to other states.

I would say most States have a fairly large population of illegal immigrants, but that it stands to reason the border states are heavier hit. The reason is for exactly what I mentioned about rising insurance rates for uninsured drivers and unpaid emergency medical procedures. Like I said, my state (and I am sure the other border states do as well) lose hundreds of millions of dollars per year in those revenues and taxes.

I was unabashed in my support of Janet Napalitano as our Governor. I think you will remember that. I have never liked Jan Brewer. Not sure if I ever mentioned her or not back when the PZ was open. If she makes this fly, boycotts or not, she has my vote.

If it flies, other states will follow. Of that I am virtually sure.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

I will say this as a credit to you, You are a very smart individual. I am sure you an read other posts if you wish to so I am not going to go back and repeat myself.

You've posted many comments in this thread. How about at least providing a link to the post in question? You seem intelligent enough to do at least that.

I am not one of those that think just because you find an illegal immigrant and deport him that it means you are a racist. However history has shown us that it will happen...pulling people over and infringing on their rights over nothing other than skin color has happened and will happen.

As VTA astutely pointed out on Facebook, abuses are present in every law regardless of measures taken. The Arizona law is no more or less conducive to profiling than other laws already in existence.

 

[Hostile]

Strangest thing I have ever offered.

If some folks who are really curious are willing to pay for it, I am willing to find a theater makeup artist, buy some clothes like the Mexican Nationals wear, and I will spend an entire day doing nothing illegal but making sure I am seen by law enforcement officers.

I will gladly report if I get "profiled" and how harsh the treatment is. I would offer to find someone to film this but I think that would tip off Officers.

I can speak nearly flawless Spanish and can even resist at first and ask what i have done wrong to see if the treatment is harsh.

Or if someone doesn't believe I could pull it off I have a Hispanic friend I can ask to do this. He's crazy. He would, just for giggles. In fact he would love to be thrown in jail wrongly.

I will be honest. I do not believe for one minute that I will even be approached if I am not doing anything wrong. If I am wrong, I will admit it.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

You've posted many comments in this thread. How about at least providing a link to the post in question? You seem intelligent enough to do at least that.

You want the answer you so desperately seek and in doing so try to belittle me saying I am evading the answer, so the onus is on you to find it...but I will help you a tad http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184774

As VTA astutely pointed out on Facebook, abuses are present in every law regardless of measures taken. The Arizona law is no more or less conducive to profiling than other laws already in existence.

Correct and this will just make it easier to do, and get away with, especially in the current climate.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

You want the answer you so desperately seek and in doing so try to belittle me saying I am evading the answer, so the onus is on you to find it...but I will help you a tad http://cowboyszone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184774

Oh, stop the victim act.

You were the one who first responded to me directly, remember?

You were the one who first resorted to the smiley icons.

You were the one who led with the "expose logical inconsistencies" attack.

Don't get snippy now because it didn't work.

Correct and this will just make it easier to do, and get away with, especially in the current climate.

The law makes it no easier or harder than it already is. As we've established, the law is already in effect at the federal law.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Oh, stop the victim act.

You were the one who first responded to me directly, remember?

You were the one who first resorted to the smiley icons.

You were the one who led with the "expose logical inconsistencies" attack.

Don't get snippy now because it didn't work.

The law makes it no easier or harder than it already is. As we've established, the law is already in effect at the federal law.

What do you mean it did not work...I gave answers before you asked the question and instead of actually reading them yourself you want someone to do all the work for you to find them.

Geez...you are really are full of yourself today.

 

[vta]

Correct and this will just make it easier to do, and get away with, especially in the current climate.

Well, there appears to be a choice that needs to be made: are you going to trust the people charged with enforcing the law or fear offending those who are abusing it and the misguided ideals of the ill-informed?

Every law, institution and system comes with these risks and that said, it's no reason to not take action. Our very system of government is inherently open to this abuse and it happens; which is why, yeah, we all think-know it should be handled at the border, but the crystal clear truth is, it's not. The Federal Government isn't doing ****.

So what are the options for a state fed up? Sit on their thumbs and hope? Fear being called names and 'boycotted' by people who probably don't support them anyway?

Like I'd said earlier in this thread, if any of these boycotting hypocrites were true to their so called mores they'd come up with something a little more constructive than empty criticism.

In the end, I'll trust the essential good of the normal American law enforcement to do what's right and understand there will be instances of the inevitable *******, which in turn, will inevitably be blared out on the miserable news outlets.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

What do you mean it did not work...

Your attempt to expose logical inconsistency failed. That's what I meant.

I gave answers before you asked the question and instead of actually reading them yourself you want someone to do all the work for you to find them.

I merely asked you to support your position. You then engaged in diversion.

Geez...you are really are full of yourself today.

Um, you're the one whining about belittlement, not I. I asked a simple question. I apologize if it offended you.

 

[BrAinPaiNt]

Your attempt to expose logical inconsistency failed. That's what I meant.

I merely asked you to support your position. You then engaged in diversion.

Um, you're the one whining about belittlement, not I. I asked a simple question. I apologize if it offended you.

It was you who engaged in diversion instead of taking a few minutes of your time and reading through the pages to see some of my suggestions. Instead of doing it you kept asking me to do it...I guess to divert your laziness...not sure what the attempt at that was all about.
But I digress...I get tired of talking with someone that does not want to do anything for themselves in this case and expects me to do it for them.

Have a nice night.

 

[ScipioCowboy]

It was you who engaged in diversion instead of taking a few minutes of your time and reading through the pages to see some of my suggestions. Instead of doing it you kept asking me to do it...I guess to divert your laziness...not sure what the attempt at that was all about.
But I digress...I get tired of talking with someone that does not want to do anything for themselves in this case and expects me to do it for them.

Have a nice night.

Asking you to support your position -- how nefarious of me! I've so wronged you. Can you ever forgive me?

 

[Hostile]

Asking you to support your position -- how nefarious of me! I've so wronged you. Can you ever forgive me?

His bad mood in the thread is my fault. I apologize.

 

[burmafrd]

The federal government refuses to enforce Immigration Laws. THerefore the STATES and the people who live there have the RIGHT to take care of business neglected by the Federal Government. That is their RIGHT as citizens of a republic. When the government FAILS in its duties the people have a RIGHT to do it themselves. Its as simple as that.
Its also common sense.

 

[arglebargle]

Until businesses get slapped down for hiring cheap, easily abuseable labor, you won't see a real change. If nobody was hiring, there wouldn't be even half this problem. But that's rarely addressed.