Upgrading Safety

[Bowdown27]

If Clinton Dix or Pryor are there you have to take one of them. Then go heavy dline in round 2-3. Jets have done that and their dline is still doing well

 

[jterrell]

Cap hits for top 3 DL:
DE Chris Clemons $8,166,667
DE Red Bryant $7,600,000
DT Brandon Mebane $5,200,000

yup...
Their top 3 are 18M

Dallas had 10.x for Spencer, 8.x for Ware(with another 10 pushed forward), 5.x for Ratliff, and 2.5 for Hatcher
So top 2 already at over 18M. Top 4 at ~28 MILLION DOLLARS.

while at safety....
Seattle has 3.8 for Kam and 3.5 for Earl
Dallas has 1.3 for Church, 551K for Wilcox, 405K for Heath (Matt Johnson is at 378K on IR) Also eat 600K for Will Allen.

 

[jterrell]

The Giants with a depleted secondary and an amazing front 4 would disagree with you when they won their SB's...

No they wouldn't.
The fallacy of the Giants is that they love DL but hate DBs.
That's simply a lie.

The Giants starting FS Antrel Rolle makes 9.25M. That's the 2nd highest contract on the entire roster and FAR higher than they paid any DL.

But, but, but they draft a DL every year... NO, they don't.
Stop believing lies and look it up.

Giants drafts since 2005:
http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/giants

apologies for crap formatting below thus the link.

2013111919Justin Pugh TSyracuse
221749Johnathan HankinsDTOhio State
331981Damontre MooreDETexas A&M
4413110Ryan NassibQBSyracuse
5519152Cooper TaylorDBRichmond
6719225Eric Herman GOhio
7747253Michael CoxRBMassachusetts
2012113232David WilsonRBVirginia Tech
223163Rueben RandleWRLouisiana State
333194Jayron HosleyDBVirginia Tech
4432127Adrien RobinsonTECincinnati
5436131Brandon Mosley TAuburn
6631201Matt McCants TAlabama-Birmingham
7732239Markus KuhnDTNorth Carolina State
2011111919Prince AmukamaraDBNebraska
222052Marvin AustinDTNorth Carolina
331983Jerrel JerniganWRTroy
4420117James Brewer TIndiana
5620185Greg JonesLBMichigan State
6633198Tyler SashDBIowa
7637202Jacquian WilliamsLBSouth Florida
8718221Da'Rel ScottRBMaryland
2010111515Jason Pierre-PaulDESouth Florida
221446Linval JosephDTEast Carolina
331276Chad JonesDBLouisiana State
4417115Phillip DillardLBNebraska
5516147Mitch Petrus GArkansas
6615184Adrian TracyLBWilliam & Mary
7714221Matt Dodge PEast Carolina
2009112929Hakeem NicksWRNorth Carolina
221345Clint SintimLBVirginia
322860William Beatty TConnecticut
432185Ramses BardenWRCal Poly
5336100Travis BeckumTEWisconsin
6429129Andre BrownRBNorth Carolina State
7515151Rhett BomarQBSam Houston State
8627200DeAndre WrightDBNew Mexico
9729238Stoney WoodsonDBSouth Carolina
2008113131Kenny PhillipsDBMiami (FL)
223263Terrell ThomasDBUSC
333295Mario ManninghamWRMichigan
4424123Bryan KehlLBBrigham Young
5530165Jonathan GoffLBVanderbilt
6632198Andre' WoodsonQBKentucky
7633199Robert HendersonDESouthern Mississippi
2007112020Aaron RossDBTexas
221951Steve SmithWRUSC
331881Jay AlfordDTPenn State
4417116Zak DeOssieLBBrown
5516153Kevin BossTEWestern Oregon
6615189Adam Koets TOregon State
7714224Michael JohnsonDBArizona
8740250Ahmad BradshawRBMarshall
2006113232Mathias KiwanukaDEBoston College
221244Sinorice MossWRMiami (FL)
333296Gerris WilkinsonLBGeorgia Tech
4427124Barry CofieldDTNorthwestern
5432129Guy Whimper TEast Carolina
6526158Charlie PeprahDBAlabama
7724232Gerrick McPhearsonDBMaryland
2005121143Corey WebsterDBLouisiana State
231074Justin TuckDENotre Dame
349110Brandon JacobsRBSouthern Illinois
4612186Eric MooreDEFlorida State

 

[foofighters]

No they wouldn't.
The fallacy of the Giants is that they love DL but hate DBs.
That's simply a lie.

The Giants starting FS Antrel Rolle makes 9.25M. That's the 2nd highest contract on the entire roster and FAR higher than they paid any DL.

But, but, but they draft a DL every year... NO, they don't.
Stop believing lies and look it up.

Giants drafts since 2005:
http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/teams/giants

apologies for crap formatting below thus the link.

2013111919Justin Pugh TSyracuse
221749Johnathan HankinsDTOhio State
331981Damontre MooreDETexas A&M
4413110Ryan NassibQBSyracuse
5519152Cooper TaylorDBRichmond
6719225Eric Herman GOhio
7747253Michael CoxRBMassachusetts
2012113232David WilsonRBVirginia Tech
223163Rueben RandleWRLouisiana State
333194Jayron HosleyDBVirginia Tech
4432127Adrien RobinsonTECincinnati
5436131Brandon Mosley TAuburn
6631201Matt McCants TAlabama-Birmingham
7732239Markus KuhnDTNorth Carolina State
2011111919Prince AmukamaraDBNebraska
222052Marvin AustinDTNorth Carolina
331983Jerrel JerniganWRTroy
4420117James Brewer TIndiana
5620185Greg JonesLBMichigan State
6633198Tyler SashDBIowa
7637202Jacquian WilliamsLBSouth Florida
8718221Da'Rel ScottRBMaryland
2010111515Jason Pierre-PaulDESouth Florida
221446Linval JosephDTEast Carolina
331276Chad JonesDBLouisiana State
4417115Phillip DillardLBNebraska
5516147Mitch Petrus GArkansas
6615184Adrian TracyLBWilliam & Mary
7714221Matt Dodge PEast Carolina
2009112929Hakeem NicksWRNorth Carolina
221345Clint SintimLBVirginia
322860William Beatty TConnecticut
432185Ramses BardenWRCal Poly
5336100Travis BeckumTEWisconsin
6429129Andre BrownRBNorth Carolina State
7515151Rhett BomarQBSam Houston State
8627200DeAndre WrightDBNew Mexico
9729238Stoney WoodsonDBSouth Carolina
2008113131Kenny PhillipsDBMiami (FL)
223263Terrell ThomasDBUSC
333295Mario ManninghamWRMichigan
4424123Bryan KehlLBBrigham Young
5530165Jonathan GoffLBVanderbilt
6632198Andre' WoodsonQBKentucky
7633199Robert HendersonDESouthern Mississippi
2007112020Aaron RossDBTexas
221951Steve SmithWRUSC
331881Jay AlfordDTPenn State
4417116Zak DeOssieLBBrown
5516153Kevin BossTEWestern Oregon
6615189Adam Koets TOregon State
7714224Michael JohnsonDBArizona
8740250Ahmad BradshawRBMarshall
2006113232Mathias KiwanukaDEBoston College
221244Sinorice MossWRMiami (FL)
333296Gerris WilkinsonLBGeorgia Tech
4427124Barry CofieldDTNorthwestern
5432129Guy Whimper TEast Carolina
6526158Charlie PeprahDBAlabama
7724232Gerrick McPhearsonDBMaryland
2005121143Corey WebsterDBLouisiana State
231074Justin TuckDENotre Dame
349110Brandon JacobsRBSouthern Illinois
4612186Eric MooreDEFlorida State

I am not talking about what they are drafting. I am talking about how the secondary will always look better if the front 4 can get to the QB. In those years their front 4 was reeking havoc in the backfield not giving the offense enough time for anything. They proved that a very strong front can hide a weak secondary. This is what I am saying.

 

[jterrell]

If Clinton Dix or Pryor are there you have to take one of them. Then go heavy dline in round 2-3. Jets have done that and their dline is still doing well

Are you suggesting that if the QB can merely heave a pass 30 yards in the air and not worry about coverage because his WR can simply go up and take the ball away from a safety that DL are somewhat helpless then?
Interesting thought.

 

[Galian Beast]

yup...
Their top 3 are 18M

Dallas had 10.x for Spencer, 8.x for Ware(with another 10 pushed forward), 5.x for Ratliff, and 2.5 for Hatcher
So top 2 already at over 18M. Top 4 at ~28 MILLION DOLLARS.

while at safety....
Seattle has 3.8 for Kam and 3.5 for Earl
Dallas has 1.3 for Church, 551K for Wilcox, 405K for Heath (Matt Johnson is at 378K on IR) Also eat 600K for Will Allen.

What a ridiculous comparison.

We invested in a bunch of injured players who we expected to produce as much if not more than the Seahawks defensive line.

That isn't to say that the seahawks haven't heavily invested in their defensive line.

There have been times when we've been stocked in our secondary... Ken Hamlin, Terence Newman, Mike Jenkins... yet we still weren't able to stop the pass...

You need a pass rush.

 

[Zordon]

Draft dline till it hurts this year, add a vet safety in FA....letting Will Allen go last year might have cost us a game in our final record. Get Wilcox to slim down, he looks too big out there to play FS, lose 10 lbs. With his mother passing early in camp and him being so raw, I'm willing to give him a mulligan on this season. Heath i don't want to see anywhere near this team, i don't care how much of a RKG he is Brad Sham.

 

[Idgit]

You need both. Offenses will attack any weak defensive link. Most of them will do so until you stop it. We have a hole at S and at least two along the DL that all need to be filled with quality contributors. There's no way around it, and we're not going to fix things with a plan to get by at either spots.

 

[jterrell]

I am not talking about what they are drafting. I am talking about how the secondary will always look better if the front 4 can get to the QB. In those years their front 4 was reeking havoc in the backfield not giving the offense enough time for anything. They proved that a very strong front can hide a weak secondary. This is what I am saying.

Unfortunately you saying it doesn't make it true; nor does it make it what the Giants actually practice.

A race car need a great motor to be fast but it is getting no where without tires.

Dallas absolutely dominated the Giants to open the season a couple seasons ago when the Giants DL was at the top of it's game.
But the CB's couldn't stop anything.
Dallas fans should recognize that particular malady.

In the Giants two Super Bowl runs they had DBs step up and play well to accompany the DL also raising it's level of play.

The great DL in history get to the QB just over once per game.
BEST ever defense in sacks got 3 per game.

That's about 30 other times per game a defense must actually stop a pass from being completed.

I am 1000000% a pressure guy in every sport.
But you never pressure without protecting the back end.

Otherwise every team would just put all 11 defenders on the line and attack every play.

 

[jterrell]

What a ridiculous comparison.

We invested in a bunch of injured players who we expected to produce as much if not more than the Seahawks defensive line.

That isn't to say that the seahawks haven't heavily invested in their defensive line.

There have been times when we've been stocked in our secondary... Ken Hamlin, Terence Newman, Mike Jenkins... yet we still weren't able to stop the pass...

You need a pass rush.

ridiculous as in doesn't fit your agenda?

Bottom line is Seattle has invested more money and higher picks in their safety and DB group than just about anyone and pull off the 4-3 we so badly want to emulate.

Dallas has had TWO All Pro DL and another we have franchised 2 years in a row and sucked stopping the pass for half a decade minimum.

We've drafted CBs and ignored Safety which make the CBs appear all too human.
Hamlin was released half a decade ago which shows how badly you are off and how long it has been since we tried to put a decent Safety on the field. Also last time we were above .500 for a season.

The last Cowboys team to win 9 or more games was 2009. We started Sensabaugh and Hamlin at safety. We won 11 games and the division.
The next year we released Hamlin and started Alan Ball in his place.
We fell to 6 wins and Wade was fired.

 

[foofighters]

Unfortunately you saying it doesn't make it true; nor does it make it what the Giants actually practice.

A race car need a great motor to be fast but it is getting no where without tires.

Dallas absolutely dominated the Giants to open the season a couple seasons ago when the Giants DL was at the top of it's game.
But the CB's couldn't stop anything.
Dallas fans should recognize that particular malady.

In the Giants two Super Bowl runs they had DBs step up and play well to accompany the DL also raising it's level of play.

The great DL in history get to the QB just over once per game.
BEST ever defense in sacks got 3 per game.

That's about 30 other times per game a defense must actually stop a pass from being completed.

I am 1000000% a pressure guy in every sport.
But you never pressure without protecting the back end.

Otherwise every team would just put all 11 defenders on the line and attack every play.

Me saying it doesn't make it true? Are you watching football? The ability to move the pocket into the QB's face on a consistent basis will give an offense a lot of problems. Just look at our Defense. Think about it. How many times have you seen DWare come of the edge and almost get to the QB? you've seen it a lot, I know you have because, I would see it happening and stand up because I would think that he's going to get to the QB. However, the QB steps up and shreds our secondary. How is this happening? because we've had very little push from our interior for years. We pinned our hopes on an undersized NT who was wore down because of his size. If we had a true NT, Dware would be the greatest pass rusher of all time. and who would have looked better because of it? Guys like Alan Ball, Roy Williams, Jacques Reeves and so on...Heck even TNew might still be on the team.

...but I guess you're going to discount what that front 4 did to the almighty Brady.

Trenches...that's where we need to focus. For years we've spent time and money drafting sexy skill position players...we need nasty guys in the trenches. You can hold to your theory all you want to but I am sticking with the trenches.

 

[locked&loaded]

Unfortunately you saying it doesn't make it true; nor does it make it what the Giants actually practice.

A race car need a great motor to be fast but it is getting no where without tires.

Dallas absolutely dominated the Giants to open the season a couple seasons ago when the Giants DL was at the top of it's game.
But the CB's couldn't stop anything.
Dallas fans should recognize that particular malady.

In the Giants two Super Bowl runs they had DBs step up and play well to accompany the DL also raising it's level of play.

The great DL in history get to the QB just over once per game.
BEST ever defense in sacks got 3 per game.

That's about 30 other times per game a defense must actually stop a pass from being completed.

I am 1000000% a pressure guy in every sport.
But you never pressure without protecting the back end.

Otherwise every team would just put all 11 defenders on the line and attack every play.

Lol at the last line.

When I read your posts I picture you typing them after two 5 hour energies

 

[jterrell]

Me saying it doesn't make it true? Are you watching football? The ability to move the pocket into the QB's face on a consistent basis will give an offense a lot of problems. Just look at our Defense. Think about it. How many times have you seen DWare come of the edge and almost get to the QB? you've seen it a lot, I know you have because, I would see it happening and stand up because I would think that he's going to get to the QB. However, the QB steps up and shreds our secondary. How is this happening? because we've had very little push from our interior for years. We pinned our hopes on an undersized NT who was wore down because of his size. If we had a true NT, Dware would be the greatest pass rusher of all time. and who would have looked better because of it? Guys like Alan Ball, Roy Williams, Jacques Reeves and so on...Heck even TNew might still be on the team.

...but I guess you're going to discount what that front 4 did to the almighty Brady.

Trenches...that's where we need to focus. For years we've spent time and money drafting sexy skill position players...we need nasty guys in the trenches. You can hold to your theory all you want to but I am sticking with the trenches.

The problem with your theory is there is a reason people employ and pay safeties.
I can go to a shot gun and completely ignore your DL altogether if you can not cover.

No one is arguing you do not need to be good in the trenches. You certainly do.
But you can not ignore Safety and think the DL will save you. It doesn't.
Dallas has tried and failed.

Jason Hatcher led all DTs in sacks this year. How good was our pass coverage?

As an offense I can block with as many as 8 guys.
Your DL isn't beating 8 guys in to block and if you try to play JV Safeties I am beating you to death with big play after big play.

It isn't about sexy or non-sexy, trench or skill, it is about putting 11 football players on the field who can do their damn job.
Until then you have ZERO chance.

BTW, the almighty Brady lead a TD drive against that Giants team late only to see shEli match him with a big (somewhat lucky) pass for the win.
The Giants had Gibril Wilson and James Butler at safety with R1 and R3 picks on the corners.
The Giants followed that win by taking a Safety in Round 1, the Pats a Safety in round 2.
Dallas didn't draft a safety at all. They had the previous year... round 7.

 

[TheCount]

None of the safeties in this draft are going to be much better than what we already have, with the exception of Heath.

I disagree to some degree. There aren't a lot of instant difference makers but if Lamarcus Joyner was 3 inches taller, he'd be going Top 20. The kid is a baller.

He's the only safety, so far, that I covet in the draft and I can't justify risking a first on him since we've seen what happens with smaller safeties. Tough to stay healthy.

 

[jterrell]

I disagree to some degree. There aren't a lot of instant difference makers but if Lamarcus Joyner was 3 inches taller, he'd be going Top 20. The kid is a baller.

He's the only safety, so far, that I covet in the draft and I can't justify risking a first on him since we've seen what happens with smaller safeties. Tough to stay healthy.

Have you studied Calvin Pryor yet?
He looks like a serious ball player.
Probably a trade down in late r1 candidate like Frederick.

I really like Joyner as a FS in round 2.

To me a Church, Joyner safety tandem gives you a chance.
And he should be there in mid round 2.

I also like Dixon or Loston if you have to go round 3 but they are more Church replacements that save money in a couple years than likely immediate help.
What they do have that Wilcox lacked was big-time production in a big-time program.

 

[kiheikiwi]

Forgive me if I have this mixed up - but going off memory. We have Church playing FS and Wilcox is supposedly a SS. Right ? Every time we talk about Church on this forum, I and others say (And some commentators by the way), Church is playing out of position - he should be the SS, better tackler, plays better closer to the line etc. Now I have yet to hear any reason as to WHY he is playing FS and not SS. No reporter I've seen has asked, is it just taken for granted that they just simply do not trust anyone else as a last line of defence ? My take, have Church switch to SS, Wilcox to back him up and gain the experiance he needs for another season and eventually take over from the undrafted free agent. Last year to see if Johnston is ever gonna be a player FS and bring in a vet, maybe even to start as Johnston has no game time experiance at all. Next years draft find a FS if this does not work out, and take one resonably high. But why has no one ever asked what seems to be obvious that our safeties are playing out of position ? Anyone ?

 

[cowboysooner]

Watch Pryor play then tell me we have a safety that can do any of that. He is not as good as Earl Thomas but he is really good and has some ball skills. If Wilcox figures it out, he is a better Church. He is never going to be a bird, weddle or Thomas. Besides we need to play big nickel against the Eagles and others with spread tight ends.

Also if I hear one more time about rod marinelli not liking Louis nix after watching Star and to a lesser extent short completely turn Carolina around by making it impossible to run, push the pocket and keeping Kuechley clean. Our current 1 tech is a Hayden a guy off the turnip truck. We don't have an answer on the roster. Free Safety 1 tech and maybe guard are our least talented positions.

 

[jterrell]

Forgive me if I have this mixed up - but going off memory. We have Church playing FS and Wilcox is supposedly a SS. Right ? Every time we talk about Church on this forum, I and others say (And some commentators by the way), Church is playing out of position - he should be the SS, better tackler, plays better closer to the line etc. Now I have yet to hear any reason as to WHY he is playing FS and not SS. No reporter I've seen has asked, is it just taken for granted that they just simply do not trust anyone else as a last line of defence ? My take, have Church switch to SS, Wilcox to back him up and gain the experiance he needs for another season and eventually take over from the undrafted free agent. Last year to see if Johnston is ever gonna be a player FS and bring in a vet, maybe even to start as Johnston has no game time experiance at all. Next years draft find a FS if this does not work out, and take one resonably high. But why has no one ever asked what seems to be obvious that our safeties are playing out of position ? Anyone ?

They trust Church more so he is the FS for 2013.

Going forward not that big a deal as we'd like the guys to be largely interchangeable.

Teams find ways to target both.

Regardless of where our safeties played teams found Heath on deep routes and then celebrated big gains. Or found the spot of grass Wilcox was supposed to cover but wasn't.
If they'd went the other side of the field Church would have been there and is more effective versus that tossed up 50/50 ball crap.

Wilcox has coverage skills he is just raw and largely clueless about where to be if it's not on a man.
He also has no idea about taking angles to tackle NFL caliber players.

Heath got the scheme and will come up to tackle but has zero ball skills.

About what you'd expect from a rookie from Georgia State and an UFDA from some place even more remote.

There is hope for them in the future... but it is beyond time to stop relying on long shots and hope.

 

[big dog cowboy]

Trenches...that's where we need to focus. For years we've spent time and money drafting sexy skill position players...we need nasty guys in the trenches. You can hold to your theory all you want to but I am sticking with the trenches.

Trade down and go DL, DL and OL (in any order) with those first 3 picks and I'm a happy man.

 

[Apollo Creed]

I'm cool with taking Clinton-Dix but I doubt he'll slip that far, look at Mark Barron from a few years ago - thought he was a mid round guy and he ended up going 7th. We were going to take Vaccaro last year but New Orleans got him right before us. They also inquired about trading up for Earl Thomas a few years ago. So it's not like they haven't made an effort, good safeties are just hard to come by.

Jerry likes 'shiny' things and he'd rather have a play-making safety than a good DT all day everyday.