Upgrading Safety

[Idgit]

They trust Church more so he is the FS for 2013.

Going forward not that big a deal as we'd like the guys to be largely interchangeable.

Teams find ways to target both.

Regardless of where our safeties played teams found Heath on deep routes and then celebrated big gains. Or found the spot of grass Wilcox was supposed to cover but wasn't.
If they'd went the other side of the field Church would have been there and is more effective versus that tossed up 50/50 ball crap.

Wilcox has coverage skills he is just raw and largely clueless about where to be if it's not on a man.
He also has no idea about taking angles to tackle NFL caliber players.

Heath got the scheme and will come up to tackle but has zero ball skills.

About what you'd expect from a rookie from Georgia State and an UFDA from some place even more remote.

There is hope for them in the future... but it is beyond time to stop relying on long shots and hope.

I agree on both Heath and Wilcox. Wilcox shows flashes of even being in the right spot at the right time. And he brings the pop. But he's every bit as inconsistent as you'd expect for a RB convert playing S his rookie season in the NFL. Heath has a knack for being around the ball and in good position, which means he's got the best seat in the house for seeing the other guys catch the ball. From what little we've seen of Johnson, he's looked rangy and in position with decent ball skills to me, but it's such an insignificant sample and there's the two significant injured seasons that you obviously can't get past. We need somebody to play S at a high level for this team, next season, to fix the pass defense. Everybody on our roster is a high-potential, low-probability bet.

On DL, we've got the easy two-thirds of a decent DL rotation if our young contributors all come back healthy. Problem is, we lost our biggest impact player this season in Ware when he turned into a pumpkin, and we're losing another this year in Hatcher. That leaves us counting on a bounce-back year for Ware or an injury-induced one year flier on Spencer and a top pick at DT to just tread water in terms of actual impact players on the front. That's tough.

I'd like to believe we could fix everything, but, honestly, it probably requires either another 1st round pick, a semi-significant FA signing, or some real luck in terms of a VFA signing or one of our lower-probability players (Wilcox, Johnson, Crawford, Heath) developing into a surprisingly good contributor for us. You can't really count on any of that happening.

 

[jterrell]

Trade down and go DL, DL and OL (in any order) with those first 3 picks and I'm a happy man.

And if you add a FS that can actually play in FA or get lucky with returnees you might have a chance.

You leave Safety as is and get what you got this year you'll get the results we got this year.

 

[jterrell]

I'm cool with taking Clinton-Dix but I doubt he'll slip that far, look at Mark Barron from a few years ago - thought he was a mid round guy and he ended up going 7th. We were going to take Vaccaro last year but New Orleans got him right before us. They also inquired about trading up for Earl Thomas a few years ago. So it's not like they haven't made an effort, good safeties are just hard to come by.

Jerry likes 'shiny' things and he'd rather have a play-making safety than a good DT all day everyday.

Safeties are not shiny. Not more than the rare top 10 guys.
Go back and look at our draft boards that have been leaking every year and you'll see we love DL and hate safeties.
Dallas had 27 DL last year and 10 rated top 2 rounds.
They had 14 safeties and only 2 rated top 2 rounds. Vaccaro was ONLY R1 safety on their board.

We didn't rate Heath as draftable.

Also worth noting for trenches fans. 12 of the 18 players Dallas rated true R1 guys last year were trench players. --doesn't include Pugh. Fluker or Frederick who were 3 of the top 4 R2 guys on our board.

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013...ft-board-leaked-almost-complete-7-round-board

 

[Zordon]

I'm cool with taking Clinton-Dix but I doubt he'll slip that far, look at Mark Barron from a few years ago - thought he was a mid round guy and he ended up going 7th. We were going to take Vaccaro last year but New Orleans got him right before us. They also inquired about trading up for Earl Thomas a few years ago. So it's not like they haven't made an effort, good safeties are just hard to come by.

Jerry likes 'shiny' things and he'd rather have a play-making safety than a good DT all day everyday.

Jerry likes shining things but he also does not like re-investing resources into the same position over and over again.

He gave Church a short extension, he drafted Wilcox last year in the 4th, Matt Johnson the year before in the 4th. Stephen has already come out and said the front 7 will be a priority. Other than dline early, I wouldn't be surprised if they used an early pick on a linebacker too. I think safety gets put on the backburner but we get a vet safety in FA. Get a vet, and give Church and Wilcox another year in this system, I think we'll be ok.

 

[JohnsKey19]

We don't fix what's upfront who cares who plays safety.

we have a guy eating up so much cap playing defensive end, and we can't make the needed upgrades. Problem is he is just playing average at best up to date.

While your point about the DL is true, that still doesn't change the fact that our S play is AT BEST mediocre. I actually think it's the weakest unit on the entire team and arguably the worst in the entire league.

 

[Apollo Creed]

Safeties are not shiny. Not more than the rare top 10 guys.
Go back and look at our draft boards that have been leaking every year and you'll see we love DL and hate safeties.
Dallas had 27 DL last year and 10 rated top 2 rounds.
They had 14 safeties and only 2 rated top 2 rounds. Vaccaro was ONLY R1 safety on their board.

We didn't rate Heath as draftable.

Also worth noting for trenches fans. 12 of the 18 players Dallas rated true R1 guys last year were trench players. --doesn't include Pugh. Fluker or Frederick who were 3 of the 4 R2 guys on our board.

http://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2013...ft-board-leaked-almost-complete-7-round-board

That's because last year was an atrocious crop of safeties. In fact the last decent safety class to come out was in 2010 with Berry, Thomas, Ward, etc

 

[Miller]

****Blaring Siren****

CONGRATULATIONS "Upgrading Safety", you've successfully been a topic for 5 years straight now, surpassing "Drafting O-lineman" as a topic Jerry Jones avoids!

You win being bypassed in this upcoming draft.

 

[jterrell]

Jerry likes shining things but he also does not like re-investing resources into the same position over and over again.

He gave Church a short extension, he drafted Wilcox last year in the 4th, Matt Johnson the year before in the 4th. Stephen has already come out and said the front 7 will be a priority. Other than dline early, I wouldn't be surprised if they used an early pick on a linebacker too. I think safety gets put on the backburner but we get a vet safety in FA. Get a vet, and give Church and Wilcox another year in this system, I think we'll be ok.

The problem is the lack of apparent safeties on the FA market.
If you set basic parameters like played 500 snaps in 2013, is under 32 years old, had a 0.0 or better PFF rating.. it gets nasty quick.

Ward, Byrd, Whitner all will cost big. Probably have to pay top 5 Safety play for top 15-20 safety performance.

After them list is:
Ihedigbo(BAL), Clemons(MIA), Pollard(TEN), Rafeal Bush(NO), Mitchell(CAR). Mundy(NYG).
At the low end those aren't really very good players.

Mundy was about the same level as Will Allen according to PFF.
So maybe you can get in on the Clemons or Pollard kid.
Worthy studying up on.

But a far lesser group than DL.

 

[jterrell]

That's because last year was an atrocious crop of safeties. In fact the last decent safety class to come out was in 2010 with Berry, Thomas, Ward, etc

That's not necessarily true.
Vaccaro, Reid, and Elam all went R1 and started.
Honey Badger was a revelation for Arizona that made some All Pro teams at safety. He has Woody-like coverage skills at safety.

Dallas had a couple those guys off board for attitude but it also just plain down-rated some others.

If there are 3 straight years of soft Safety classes perhaps you should prioritize the position a bit more....
At some point you have to get one and I'd rather be picking at top of a mediocre lot then bottom of it.

 

[casmith07]

If Clinton Dix or Pryor are there you have to take one of them. Then go heavy dline in round 2-3. Jets have done that and their dline is still doing well

FALSE. The Jets invested top resources in their defensive front the last two years.

2012 - Quinton Coples DE (1)
2011 - Mohammed Wilkerson DT (1), Kendrick Ellis DT (2)

The only defensive backs they selected fairly high in recent years were Kyle Wilson, who's invisible, and Revis, who is no longer with the team. Before that in 2006 they invested heavily in re-tooling their offensive line, selecting D'Brickashaw Ferguson at OT and Nick Mangold at C in the first two rounds.

In fact, the Jets have selected more WRs, Linebackers, and CBs in rounds 2-3 than not.

 

[foofighters]

The problem with your theory is there is a reason people employ and pay safeties.
I can go to a shot gun and completely ignore your DL altogether if you can not cover.

No one is arguing you do not need to be good in the trenches. You certainly do.
But you can not ignore Safety and think the DL will save you. It doesn't.
Dallas has tried and failed.

Jason Hatcher led all DTs in sacks this year. How good was our pass coverage?

As an offense I can block with as many as 8 guys.
Your DL isn't beating 8 guys in to block and if you try to play JV Safeties I am beating you to death with big play after big play.

It isn't about sexy or non-sexy, trench or skill, it is about putting 11 football players on the field who can do their damn job.
Until then you have ZERO chance.

BTW, the almighty Brady lead a TD drive against that Giants team late only to see shEli match him with a big (somewhat lucky) pass for the win.
The Giants had Gibril Wilson and James Butler at safety with R1 and R3 picks on the corners.
The Giants followed that win by taking a Safety in Round 1, the Pats a Safety in round 2.
Dallas didn't draft a safety at all. They had the previous year... round 7.

Again, you're talking about draft picks. I am not. I am merely stating my fundamental belief in how to build a football team that can compete in the Super Bowl. ...and for the record, the score of that game was 17-14. I wouldn't say Brady was at his best considering that year, that offense broke a gozillion records and beat the snot out of us (again, remember, our Dline hasn't ever really been strong) 48-27...

 

[casmith07]

****Blaring Siren****

CONGRATULATIONS "Upgrading Safety", you've successfully been a topic for 5 years straight now, surpassing "Drafting O-lineman" as a topic Jerry Jones avoids!

You win being bypassed in this upcoming draft.

It would merit equal concern, however, our defensive line was not a morbidly significant concern in previous years. This year it is abundantly clear where the resources need to be invested. San Francisco, for example, was top 10 in passing defense with nobodies in the secondary.

 

[imbatman]

Most would agree that DL is a bigger need than safety. I believe many would also argue that DL is a more important position than safety. The difficult decision would be when you must choose between a safety that is higher rated than the DL you are looking at.

Also getting lucky with an undrafted FA like Church allows the team to invest less in the position. Still the Cowboys have spent two picks in the top 4 rounds on the position between the last two drafts. I would feel fine with not spending a high pick on the position unless a safety was clearly the most valuable pick in a particular round.

 

[casmith07]

I disagree to some degree. There aren't a lot of instant difference makers but if Lamarcus Joyner was 3 inches taller, he'd be going Top 20. The kid is a baller.

He's the only safety, so far, that I covet in the draft and I can't justify risking a first on him since we've seen what happens with smaller safeties. Tough to stay healthy.

Well, if that's all, then thanks for confirming my statement, lol.

 

[casmith07]

Most would agree that DL is a bigger need than safety. I believe many would also argue that DL is a more important position than safety. The difficult decision would be when you must choose between a safety that is higher rated than the DL you are looking at.

Also getting lucky with an undrafted FA like Church allows the team to invest less in the position. Still the Cowboys have spent two picks in the top 4 rounds on the position between the last two drafts. I would feel fine with not spending a high pick on the position unless a safety was clearly the most valuable pick in a particular round.

Unless Darren Woodson is eligible for the draft, you don't spend high resources on a safety.

Look at the top defenses in the NFL. All of them have one thing in common - really good defensive fronts.

 

[Miller]

It would merit equal concern, however, our defensive line was not a morbidly significant concern in previous years. This year it is abundantly clear where the resources need to be invested. San Francisco, for example, was top 10 in passing defense with nobodies in the secondary.

What do you mean. They drafted Eric Reid who has been a stud for them for a rookie. We needed a guy badly with the Tampa 2...safeties are needed badly in that D..and for years we have ignored the position except bringing in journeyman guys.

 

[Bowdown27]

FALSE. The Jets invested top resources in their defensive front the last two years.

2012 - Quinton Coples DE (1)
2011 - Mohammed Wilkerson DT (1), Kendrick Ellis DT (2)

The only defensive backs they selected fairly high in recent years were Kyle Wilson, who's invisible, and Revis, who is no longer with the team. Before that in 2006 they invested heavily in re-tooling their offensive line, selecting D'Brickashaw Ferguson at OT and Nick Mangold at C in the first two rounds.

In fact, the Jets have selected more WRs, Linebackers, and CBs in rounds 2-3 than not.

Ok maybe a bad example but look at the Seahawks with their defense. Their line is not that great. If we could pick up a Pryor or Dix w Claiborne and Carr. It could be a great secondary and a a healthy oline could go a far way.

 

[casmith07]

What do you mean. They drafted Eric Reid who has been a stud for them for a rookie. We needed a guy badly with the Tampa 2...safeties are needed badly in that D..and for years we have ignored the position except bringing in journeyman guys.

One safety. One player. What about the CBs? Nickel CBs?

Here's a hint -- they aren't amazing players. Reid is good, not great. You know who is great? Every single guy on that front 7.

 

[casmith07]

Ok maybe a bad example but look at the Seahawks with their defense. Their line is not that great. If we could pick up a Pryor or Dix w Claiborne and Carr. It could be a great secondary and a a healthy oline could go a far way.

If you don't think the Seahawks' line is great, you're not really watching, I'm sorry. Seattle's front four is incredible. It's the big, big reason their secondary is as good as it is as a whole.

 

[jterrell]

Again, you're talking about draft picks. I am not. I am merely stating my fundamental belief in how to build a football team that can compete in the Super Bowl. ...and for the record, the score of that game was 17-14. I wouldn't say Brady was at his best considering that year, that offense broke a gozillion records and beat the snot out of us (again, remember, our Dline hasn't ever really been strong) 48-27...

Nothing wrong with a trench first mentality.
That and a once in a lifetime QB can get you to a SB, lol.

But the truth is Dallas has a better DL than the Patriots the past 15 years.
That's the fallacy. That Dallas has been bad on the DL.
That's just not true.
We've had more Pro Bowls from DL than any other positional group since we last won a Super Bowl.

In 2012 this team had all of 3 Pro Bowlers. Demarcus Ware, Anthony Spencer and Jason Witten.
In 2011 we had two: Ware and Ratliff.


You also forget that we beat that same Giants team TWICE in 2007. We came up short in a 3rd game or they'd have never even met the Pats must less beat them.