Upgrading Safety

[jterrell]

If you don't think the Seahawks' line is great, you're not really watching, I'm sorry. Seattle's front four is incredible. It's the big, big reason their secondary is as good as it is as a whole.

No offense but hard to read through the agenda.

No, the Seattle DL is not great. it is very DEEP but individually they are merely solid guys, not a star amongst them.

And no, the 49ers do not have 7 great players in that front 7. --they do have a very good front 7 but no team has 7 great players there.
Dorsey and McDonald are merely adequate but it is a nasty collection of guys to be sure. Especially is Aldon Smith isn't off the rails.

 

[Miller]

One safety. One player. What about the CBs? Nickel CBs?

Here's a hint -- they aren't amazing players. Reid is good, not great. You know who is great? Every single guy on that front 7.

You are mixing up needing safety with "ignore D-line." I have full on posts in here, where some members put me on ignore, that said the Dline was a priority this last draft vs TE and WR and that they dropped the ball. So I agree with you completely. But my original joke was that safety has been a glaring weakness for years. There were guys they could have drafted an ignored them. Safety was also needed for the Tampa 2 with some coaches saying it was one of the most important positions in playing that D.

As far as SF. Reid is a rookie and made an impact. Donte Whitner is not a push over and is considered good. Both Reid and Whitner were named alternates to the Pro Bowl. Despite what you call no name, their secondary..CBs..were a top until in 2012 and were 7th in 2013 with guys like Parish Cox, Carlos Rogers, etc. Soits not like they threw out some scrubs and somehow got by.

 

[casmith07]

Fine. You guys draft your Safeties and ignore the defensive line just like the Cowboys drafted TEs, RBs, and WRs and ignored the offensive line for 10, 15 years. See what happens.

 

[theSHOW]

If Clinton Dix or Pryor are there you have to take one of them. Then go heavy dline in round 2-3. Jets have done that and their dline is still doing well

J. E. T. S.*.....J***E***T***S

Not sure you guys understand how the 4-3 is supposed to work but you rotate DL.
The Seattle DL is DEEPPPPPPP but has zero stars.
They've got a lot of Selvie types that play a limited snap count.
They've got some big bodies to stop the run that can rest in 2 minute stuff or long passing downs.
But no one making 'star' money or putting up star stats.

At DB however they have BY FAR the best safety tandem in football.

And it works because those safeties make the CBs and DL job easier. They can simply man cover in a limited window, rush on rush downs or run stop on run stopping downs. The safeties cover mistakes and protect against being fooled.

The safeties do not come off the field, the 8 DL all rotate in and out.

So when you plan to fix the defense try telling me again how it possibly makes sense to plan to use a guy like Jeff Heath EVERY DOWN so you can put resources into a 2nd round DT that will play half your defensive downs.

The Cowboys went into 2013 with a plan for 8 DL.
They also planned to plug Will Allen in as a stop gap at Safety backed up by a rookie 3rd rounder or the ghost of Matt Johnson whose played less football since being drafted than my dog.
The plan was flawed in the sense Ratliff was trying to murder the owner thus probably not sane nor likely to return.
That playing Spencer franchise money was a poor use of cap cash as it gave you nothing for him going forward and insured one of (if not) the highest single season cap totals for a DL signed in 2013.

I give Dallas passes on DL depth. Any sane person should.
Ware tailing off a bit and missing a game or three... foreseeable.
Ratliff leaving the reservation ... foreseeable.
Both happening... yuck but you took those chances.

Spencer missing 15 games > WTH???
Bass missing the season?? No Way. He wants to play and needs to play. Makes peanuts and is a rotation guy.
Crawford missing the year? Again, no way. May not be exactly sure where we plug in him or what his ceiling is yet but he's a legit rotation guy. EVERY bit as good as Michael Bennett, but no where near a Demarcus Ware.

All of that happening? Wow... that's simply not going to be something you next man up and overcome. Doesn't happen.
So again, I give Dallas a pass on the depth portion of DL issues if not on the highly paid front line guys they were gambling huge dollars on.

But Safety...
Let's review the god forsaken plan again shall we.

Will Allen???
Barry Church coming off serious injury and with zero experience???
Matt Johnson???
A rookie from Georgia State that lost by like 50 points per game????
This was THE PLAN????

That should be the plan AGAIN???

I like your ideas here JT I would personally be most excited if we turn the page on the older stars on the front four. Rat is gone. Dallas has the chance to move on from Wares contract right now. Hatcher will ask a lot and Spencer should only be offered a deal for the home team if he is ready to go. I know he is still on crutches. Grabbing a mid level and a low level run stopper would be awesome. The draft will be a chance to build youth on the line. Add in Crawford Hayden, Selvie, Bass, Wilbur and Wynn. Now Dallas has about 10-11 guys in training camp vying for 8 spots. I've got no problem taking OG & FS, 1 & 2 come April. (bpa)
What is your dogs name? And why does everybody want to call our d line players murderers?

 

[jterrell]

Fine. You guys draft your Safeties and ignore the defensive line just like the Cowboys drafted TEs, RBs, and WRs and ignored the offensive line for 10, 15 years. See what happens.

or they could operate above the level of a 2 year old child and make a plan to address every position and place 22 good players for offense/defense on the field to start games.

the Cowboys didn't ignore OL for 10-15 years. they simply chose to pay high FA prices there to supplement the studs they had drafted: Larry Allen and Andre Gurode.
(marco rivera, leonard davis, kyle kozier, marc columbo)
the high picks they did make: Jacob Rogers chief amongst them, simply flopped.
as the draft picks who would have been in prime years were long gone, the vets fell off and they ran out of cap money under the new CBA, they amazingly hit a wall there.

if josh brent wasnt an idiot the team would still have the makings of a quality young DL: crawford, bass, brent, hayden, selvie.
they'd still need a top pick (or FA) used there but they wouldn't be in a crisis mode.

the cowboys CAN NOT ignore DL OR SAFETY this off-season.
I think this is VERY VERY obvious.

no one wants to watch the QB have 30 second to make a play because the DL sucks same as no one wants to watch glorified hail mary's become catches because the safeties are useless more than 20 yards down the field.

 

[Redball Express]

I've heard a lot of people talking about the need to upgrade at safety, and I really do believe we need to do something at safety, but I don't think this is the time.

In 2013 we spent a 3rd round draft pick on J.J. Wilcox with the understanding that he was going to be extremely raw not having played the position much in college. We have to give him all the opportunity in the world to grow into that position.

I would say competition dictates that we still address the position, but we've also spent a 4th round draft pick on the position in 2012 with Matt Johnson. If Johnson can't stay healthy next year, likely that will be the end of him here, but he should also be afforded that opportunity.

Given that Church is certainly a starter, I don't think it makes sense to throw more resources at safety, until we see whether our current investments pan out. And all that we do at safety isn't going to make a difference if there isn't some serious improvement on the defensive line, which I maintain should be our number #1 priority this offseason.

While we still have Carr, Claiborne, and Scandrick on the books, it makes more sense to me to try and upgrade the pass rush, which is going to help everyone reach a higher level, rather than waste resources on safety when players we already have may or may not pan out.

I wouldn't spend a dollar on a safety that could go towards a defensive lineman.

All of this.

We just spent a ton of money and picks on the secondary thinking that was the answer for Rob Ryan's defenses.

Wasn't the answer.

Now its being said that Mo Clayborne is not a fit in coverages for Kiffin.

Well then take the players you have and change your schemes to fit it.

Safety has been a problem with this team ever since Woody left.

That was what?

15+ years ago?

This is how things go in Dallas..

 

[jterrell]

I like your ideas here JT I would personally be most excited if we turn the page on the older stars on the front four. Rat is gone. Dallas has the chance to move on from Wares contract right now. Hatcher will ask a lot and Spencer should only be offered a deal for the home team if he is ready to go. I know he is still on crutches. Grabbing a mid level and a low level run stopper would be awesome. The draft will be a chance to build youth on the line. Add in Crawford Hayden, Selvie, Bass, Wilbur and Wynn. Now Dallas has about 10-11 guys in training camp vying for 8 spots. I've got no problem taking OG & FS, 1 & 2 come April. (bpa)
What is your dogs name? And why does everybody want to call our d line players murderers?

If it is pay Ware 12.5M or move on I reluctantly move on.
I'd much rather restructure him in a "cap correction" move that gives him 14-17M guaranteed the next 2 seasons.
Lower his cap hit by 10M plus this year and again next year.

We need a lot of bodies for the DL from somewhere so it is hard to just eat Ware's contract and thus a back pocket plan for me.

But I am not coming into Camp with Church, Heath, Wilcox and Johnson to say have at it boys.
I am adding one known good commodity there.
Someone who can get me out of the bottom 5 for safety play.

Dog: Jaxx, pitbull mix, a sweetheart. Does love ot chase a football and tackle people.
DL= murderers: think it was motivational nickname that got out of control.

 

[jterrell]

All of this.

We just spent a ton of money and picks on the secondary thinking that was the answer for Rob Ryan's defenses.

Wasn't the answer.

Now its being said that Mo Clayborne is not a fit in coverages for Kiffin.

Well then take the players you have and change your schemes to fit it.

Safety has been a problem with this team ever since Woody left.

That was what?

15+ years ago?

This is how things go in Dallas..

Your post has me confused.

We should find a safety that addresses a team weakness since Woody left or no the years since Woody left have been super awesome?

CB and S are different positions. Our Safety play has been so bad we actually move our 15m CB to Safety a bit but they really are two different positions.
Same as Dallas having Ware and Spencer as pass rushers doesn't much help us at NT.

Again the lesson from Seattle is have 20 good defensive football players that cover the field.

Your weaknesses get you killed more than your strengths win you games.

 

[foofighters]

Nothing wrong with a trench first mentality.
That and a once in a lifetime QB can get you to a SB, lol.

But the truth is Dallas has a better DL than the Patriots the past 15 years.
That's the fallacy. That Dallas has been bad on the DL.
That's just not true.
We've had more Pro Bowls from DL than any other positional group since we last won a Super Bowl.

In 2012 this team had all of 3 Pro Bowlers. Demarcus Ware, Anthony Spencer and Jason Witten.
In 2011 we had two: Ware and Ratliff.


You also forget that we beat that same Giants team TWICE in 2007. We came up short in a 3rd game or they'd have never even met the Pats must less beat them.

Oh goodness. You're using the Pro Bowl to strengthen your stance? Ok, I'll play. Technically, DWare and Spencer were LB's in the 3-4. But since you are using them, you inadvertently made my point. I already stated our DWare coming off the edge. Where has that gotten us? Nowhere because we have been lacking in our INTERIOR.

We beat the Giants twice that year because no one had figured JG out yet. In that playoff game, we were on them and wining because we were running the football all over them. Then in the second half, we left the run...probably because they figured out that all you have to do to stop the Cowboys is stop the run and jam the WR's and dare us to go long. JG loves him some long developing pass plays anyway. In the second half, Romo was running for his life. Again, their front guys were all over Romo without having to send a lot of rushers leaving LB'ers back to help support the pass.

 

[Yakuza Rich]

Barry Church did not look like a competent NFL starting safety. The only thing he does well is tackle well. That's important, but he has terrible cover skills and to me, looked like he botched a lot of assignments. Heath is nowhere near a NFL starter. I would like to keep him around because I think he's got athleticism and heart and can be used well on special teams. But, he was horrendous. Wilcox showed some things, but they really soured on him in the 2nd half of the season.

I would rather go after safety because unless you're dominant up front, being this poor at safety isn't going to help you. And we have a long ways to go in being dominant up front. Meanwhile, if we got one really good safety, maybe the other safeties come around for the other safety spot.

I think we have to address both areas. But we won't be a good pass defense until we get some fairly capable safeties. Look at the Wade era, where we were tops or near the tops in sacks. Yet, our pass defense was suspect.




YR

 

[Redball Express]

Your post has me confused.

We should find a safety that addresses a team weakness since Woody left or no the years since Woody left have been super awesome?

CB and S are different positions. Our Safety play has been so bad we actually move our 15m CB to Safety a bit but they really are two different positions.
Same as Dallas having Ware and Spencer as pass rushers doesn't much help us at NT.

Again the lesson from Seattle is have 20 good defensive football players that cover the field.

Your weaknesses get you killed more than your strengths win you games.

Not trying to confuse..good points.

My reaction is to the fact that we try and try with Jerrah as the GM/owner to draft and sign FA to fill the safety vacuum..

but no real investment in the position.

That's what confuses me.

Dallas always tries to take somebody like they did with Woody who was a Lber and make him a safety in order to save salary cap so they can final their money to guys like Romo and Ware.

This has to stop.

 

[jterrell]

Oh goodness. You're using the Pro Bowl to strengthen your stance? Ok, I'll play. Technically, DWare and Spencer were LB's in the 3-4. But since you are using them, you inadvertently made my point. I already stated our DWare coming off the edge. Where has that gotten us? Nowhere because we have been lacking in our INTERIOR.

We beat the Giants twice that year because no one had figured JG out yet. In that playoff game, we were on them and wining because we were running the football all over them. Then in the second half, we left the run...probably because they figured out that all you have to do to stop the Cowboys is stop the run and jam the WR's and dare us to go long. JG loves him some long developing pass plays anyway. In the second half, Romo was running for his life. Again, their front guys were all over Romo without having to send a lot of rushers leaving LB'ers back to help support the pass.

Good job of moving the target once the target has been hit. I appreciate the determination.

Jay Ratliff was a multiple time All Pro NT for this team. All Pro means best in football. Please stop pretending we were bad at NT.

On that 2007 team we also employed Chris Canty who the friggin Giants liked enough to pay him HUGE money.
We had Marcus Spears and Jason Hatcher as well.

And that was just inside.
Outside we had Ware and Spencer.

And in that game we had 3 sacks while that Giants defense had 2.
We ran the ball much better and passed for more yards.

Patrick Crayton dropped an easy TD in that game that changes all this stupidity and lies I keep reading.

 

[imbatman]

Unless Darren Woodson is eligible for the draft, you don't spend high resources on a safety.

Look at the top defenses in the NFL. All of them have one thing in common - really good defensive fronts.

I don't think it's good policy to rule out drafting safeties in the top few rounds. I do agree that, if the prospects are rated equally, you draft DL over safety.

 

[theSHOW]

If it is pay Ware 12.5M or move on I reluctantly move on.
I'd much rather restructure him in a "cap correction" move that gives him 14-17M guaranteed the next 2 seasons.
Lower his cap hit by 10M plus this year and again next year.

We need a lot of bodies for the DL from somewhere so it is hard to just eat Ware's contract and thus a back pocket plan for me.

But I am not coming into Camp with Church, Heath, Wilcox and Johnson to say have at it boys.
I am adding one known good commodity there.
Someone who can get me out of the bottom 5 for safety play.

Dog: Jaxx, pitbull mix, a sweetheart. Does love ot chase a football and tackle people.
DL= murderers: think it was motivational nickname that got out of control.

Ah yes, Just in the last 2 weeks my family and I were on a snowy slope letting the kids toboggan down the hill. My brother would pass a football to one of the 10 year olds and my German Shepard Sadie would cornerback that receiver all the way down the hill where I would be waiting for a bobbled catch or incompletion. That dog is vicious and sprained my thumb going for the loose football on the 1st attempt. We did this about 20 times and the dog and I were about 50/50 on the loose balls. Believe me I covered that ball quick and curled my body around it as that Shepard would teeth for that ball like it was the Super Bowl. Zero degree and 10 below+ windchill. Had the bank robber mask on and heavy gloves.Just bring in a ringer or 2 on the Dline and the Cowboys will be more than ok.

 

[cowboyschmps3]

I agree with us making a DLine our #1 priority not Safety

 

[foofighters]

Good job of moving the target once the target has been hit. I appreciate the determination.

Jay Ratliff was a multiple time All Pro NT for this team. All Pro means best in football. Please stop pretending we were bad at NT.

On that 2007 team we also employed Chris Canty who the friggin Giants liked enough to pay him HUGE money.
We had Marcus Spears and Jason Hatcher as well.

And that was just inside.
Outside we had Ware and Spencer.

And in that game we had 3 sacks while that Giants defense had 2.
We ran the ball much better and passed for more yards.

Patrick Crayton dropped an easy TD in that game that changes all this stupidity and lies I keep reading.

Jay Ratliff was an all pro once. 2009. He was undersized and never did what a true NT needs to do...and that's push the pocket back into the QB's face. Yes, he did very well for an someone undersized but we've never had a true pocket collapsing Dline. While mentioning some of those other guys, you've forgotten the likes of Igor Owhatshisname. you can throw out all the stats you want but the biggest issue was that we lost that game. Our Dline failed to stop Eli just like it has been the case for several years. DWare is just a split second late in getting to the QB because all he has to do is step up. You want to win championships? don't give the QB a pocket. It doesn't matter what we've done in the regular season. What matters is he haven't done anything in the playoffs. Trenches wins in December and January. Offensive and Defensive trenches.

The stupidity and lies comes thinking one play cost us the game. It was many plays. Fasano drops an easy pass. Crayton stops on a go route. We had many plays that killed us that game. Our D letting them score easily right before half time. Our Oline completely collapses in the second half.

 

[visionary]

or they could operate above the level of a 2 year old child and make a plan to address every position and place 22 good players for offense/defense on the field to start games.

the Cowboys didn't ignore OL for 10-15 years. they simply chose to pay high FA prices there to supplement the studs they had drafted: Larry Allen and Andre Gurode.
(marco rivera, leonard davis, kyle kozier, marc columbo)
the high picks they did make: Jacob Rogers chief amongst them, simply flopped.
as the draft picks who would have been in prime years were long gone, the vets fell off and they ran out of cap money under the new CBA, they amazingly hit a wall there.

if josh brent wasnt an idiot the team would still have the makings of a quality young DL: crawford, bass, brent, hayden, selvie.
they'd still need a top pick (or FA) used there but they wouldn't be in a crisis mode.

the cowboys CAN NOT ignore DL OR SAFETY this off-season.
I think this is VERY VERY obvious.

no one wants to watch the QB have 30 second to make a play because the DL sucks same as no one wants to watch glorified hail mary's become catches because the safeties are useless more than 20 yards down the field.

Agree with this
I am as big a proponent of DL upgrade and trench play as anybody but the reality is that both DL and FS need to be upgraded significantly for this to become a dominant defense

I personally think that true FS center fiders are harder to find so I could make a case for paying Byrd what is market value and go for Joseph or Melton at DT

Now you can pick 2 DL in the first 3 rounds of the draft along with OL

 

[reddyuta]

our safeties cannot cover and that is a huge problem in Tampa 2,its why u see wide open guys in the middle every time.Church is a good player but he is poor in coverage and Heath looked lost out there,i am hopeful for Wilcox but we need a true centerfielder with instincts who can break on the ball decisively.

 

[Bowdown27]

If you don't think the Seahawks' line is great, you're not really watching, I'm sorry. Seattle's front four is incredible. It's the big, big reason their secondary is as good as it is as a whole.

No their dline is great. They have no stars. They have a great rotation. But all around great d. They are KNOWN for their secondary. Maybe you really aren't watching.