Vick's holding out for one year

[silverbear]

But in other societies, it's not quite like this.

Too bad for Vick he doesn't live in one of those societies...

And while I do think that he should be punished to some extent of the law. The punishment should fit the crime. And a man spending 12 months in prison is a bit harsh if you ask me.

I think it's a slap on the wrist for the sadistic sumb*tch... but I console myself with knowing he's really getting hurt in his wallet...

In the name of religion, this country's own dogmatic social norms and the devout love for best friends named Fifi around the world; we persecute Mike Vick.

Never mind that there are guns, illegal gambling, and drugs at any dog fight... never mind that sadists who torture animals for fun have been known to go on to torturing people for fun...

So why are Vick's actions in this ordeal deemed to be unacceptable, as a social norm, amongst our society when, every day, we are, in some form or fashion, as a collective society, mistreating animals in similar manners?

You can't name anything we do to animals that even remotely compares to what is done to dogs in the course of a dog fight... well, except for chickens in a cockfight, or bulls in a bullfight, and of course both of those are morally wrong too... in no other endeavor are animals tortured for fun and profit...

Bear in mind, Dick Cheney shot a man in the face while hunting birds; for sport.

I'm sure you had a point there, but it really seems completely irrelevant to anything we're discussing here...

Where's the justice?

Being served even as we speak... just because you can't figure out the justice here doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

 

[silverbear]

Just because a man, or even the majority of men in a group makes a law; doesn't mean that the law is just.

Just because a few contrarians say that it isn't doesn't make it so, either...

Laws are supposed to represent the mores of society, and this one surely does... you clearly don't like this one, but you equally clearly don't represent the majority opinion...

Tough, you're still bound by the law, just the way I am, just the way Michael Vick is... permit me to suggest you not engage in dogfighting, or if you do, that you be VERY careful about keeping that fact from the law...

These laws are as fallible as the individuals who make them. And the hypocrisy of those who make judgements without taking an honest look at their own makes me ill.

Gee, that's JUST how your idiotic defense of dogfighting makes me feel...

But that's the reality of it--regardless of our laws that are derived from these fallacious social norms.

There's nothing "fallacious" about social norms... indeed, we have a name for those who suggest that such norms are "fallacious"...

We call them "sociopaths"... people who think the laws of the land don't, or shouldn't, apply to them...

 

[silverbear]

I see that the logic is unable to get through to you, Mr. Russell.

There's no "logic" to your argument, merely a contrarian opinion that the laws covering dogfighting are somehow wrong... apparently, this is because we kill animals for food...

Is it me? Because this poster doesn't seem to have the mental faculties to separate rationale from emotion?

Can't argue the merits, so you resort to ad hominem, eh?? How very "logical" of you... LOL...

 

[silverbear]

I'm sure that all of this attention to Micheal Vick will take a bite out of crime and make vegetarians out of us all, right?

Oh, I'd never go down the vegetarian road, I've heard that makes you stupid...

Mind you, all I have is second hand testimony on that one...

 

[silverbear]

I'm sure that all of this attention to Micheal Vick will take a bite out of crime and make vegetarians out of us all, right?

What's really bizarre is that you claim to be a vegetarian, meaning you're too morally pure to eat an animal, yet you seem to have no problem with Vick torturing them...

I'd say any hypocrisy in this argument is yours... if you truly believe that eating animals is wrong, then you MUST "logically" believe that torturing animals for fun and profit is even more wrong...

 

[silverbear]

Well, I'm sorry that I don't agree with *this* society's notion that Puppy Love should be held dearer in our hearts than that of Bambi or say Bugs Bunny.

How very sad, you tried SO hard to be sarcastic, and only managed to come off as asinine...

I don't quite know how to break this to you, but Bambi and Bugs are CARTOON characters, as in NOT REAL...

Yes, you bet I hold a real live dog in higher regard than I do ANY cartoon character... are you saying you don't??

It's lawful by *this* society to shoot or even merely wound a dear to the point of suffering for the purpose of mounting it on your wall, but similar actions to another one of God's creatures is not?

First off, NO hunter sets out to "merely wound" a deer... when that happens, it's a MISTAKE on the part of the hunter, and any reputable hunter will then make it a priority to seek out the wounded animal, and put it out of its misery...

Second, virtually every deer hunter who ever bagged a deer EATS that deer, or gives the meat to friends who will... nobody eats the dogs destroyed in a dogfight...

Most important, though, deer hunting IS legal, dog fighting is not... you might not be able to grasp why that is, but you're still bound to accept those rules...

Give it a rest.

You probably oughta take your own advice, 'cause you're coming off as quite the fool here... and there's little to no chance that you're gonna get the last word in on this one...

*This* notion that dogs are to be held sacred in comparison to other rational and even more intelligent animals than say, a pig, is absolutely absurd.

In your opinion, which unfortunately for you is a minority view in our society... the VAST majority of our society wants to protect our dogs from this kind of sadistic cruelty...

That's the point you seem determined to miss, the sheer sadism of dogfighting... though some of the techniques used to butcher our food bother me, they're not willfully sadistic, as dogfighting is...

Have a hypocritical piece of ham and spare me the puppy love nonsense.

When exactly did you get the notion you got to dictate what the rest of us think, feel or say?? If you don't like the "puppy love" nonsense, you probably ought to get out of this thread just as fast as you can, because you're gonna get a steady diet of it from the majority of the posters to this thread...

There is no difference between what some call "sport" and this "cruelty".

Sure there is, you're just too obtuse to grasp it... this does not speak well for you, indeed it's supremely hypocritical of you to claim moral superiority because you don't eat meat, even as you condone the sadistic torture and kiling of dogs for fun and profit...

That shifting feeling you're experiencing is not an earthquake, it's the moral high ground, slipping out from under your hypocritical feet...

 

[Seven]

or news of people packing illegal arms at a kid's fishing derby.

Those little bastids cheat...............:

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Why?

Do you get a prize or something if all of that happens? Will there be balloons involved?

Well, obviously, the decision to take a plea has already been made but since you have asked, I will answer.

I wanted him to take it to trial because I believed that he was guilty and that he would be found as such if he went to trial. It is the way it is supposed to be done in our country, a trial by your peers, as it were. I imagine you have no problem with these methods, yes?

I wanted him to try and fight it because I wanted him to receive the maximum penalty as opposed to the minimum that a plea might bring.

Sorry, no balloons or prizes.

 

[superpunk]

Well, obviously, the decision to take a plea has already been made but since you have asked, I will answer.

I wanted him to take it to trial because I believed that he was guilty and that he would be found as such if he went to trial. It is the way it is supposed to be done in our country, a trial by your peers, as it were. I imagine you have no problem with these methods, yes?

I wanted him to try and fight it because I wanted him to receive the maximum penalty as opposed to the minimum that a plea might bring.

Sorry, no balloons or prizes.

Again - why do you want or care about any of that? It doesn't effect you at all. This pettiness is ridiculous. Whatever happens to him happens to him. It really shouldn't matter to anyone (except those involved in the case) one way or the other.

But the proles....they love a good "fall from grace" story. Whatever. It doesn't help me at all.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Again - why do you want or care about any of that? It doesn't effect you at all. This pettiness is ridiculous. Whatever happens to him happens to him. It really shouldn't matter to anyone (except those involved in the case) one way or the other.

But the proles....they love a good "fall from grace" story. Whatever. It doesn't help me at all.

Turn the question around and ask yourself why you post on this board about subjects that don't directly effect you. It really shouldn't matter to you (as you are not directly involved). Does this mean you should be charaterised as "prole"?

You be the judge. It is not for me to lable you at all.

As for me, I do feel that it is important to have a view and an opinion on matters such as this. It is a social concience issue and as such, I should have an opinion. That is my view on the subject.

 

[superpunk]

Turn the question around and ask yourself why you post on this board about subjects that don't directly effect you. It really shouldn't matter to you (as you are not directly involved). Does this mean you should be charaterised as "prole"?

That's an asinine redirect.

This is my favorite NFL team. I like to talk about it.

I'm not sitting here wishing for someone I don't know, who doesn't play for my favorite team to get burned for something he allegedly did, hoping that instead of a plea he has to spend millions on lawyer fees.

I'm not petty like that. I don't get off if Mike Vick serves 20 years or if he doesn't serve a day. Hope that justice is served, and he gets what he deserves, if he deserves anything. This kind of pettiness goes beyond that.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

That's an asinine redirect.

This is my favorite NFL team. I like to talk about it.

I'm not sitting here wishing for someone I don't know, who doesn't play for my favorite team to get burned for something he allegedly did, hoping that instead of a plea he has to spend millions on lawyer fees.

I'm not petty like that. I don't get off if Mike Vick serves 20 years or if he doesn't serve a day. Hope that justice is served, and he gets what he deserves, if he deserves anything. This kind of pettiness goes beyond that.

Don't you mean, in your opinion? I'm pretty sure that's the case. However, if that is your opinion, your certainly entitled to it. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other.

To my way of thinking, Football is my favorite sport and anybody as highly visable as Michael Vick is of interest to me as his actions directly relate to my favorite sport. Further, and more importantly, our countries views on how we treat animals in situations such as this, is of great importance to me as well. Again, plenty of reason for me to be interested in Vick and what takes place with him.

Just so your not confused. Vick is guilty. He has confirmed this. While I appriciate you side stepping the question I asked you in favor of something else, it is no longer in doubt as to if Michael Vick is guilty or not. His sentance is not up to me but if it was, I would give him what the letter of the law says is allowable. While you can try and find fault with that, it is of no significance. The law madates what is appropriate and that is what I am in support of.

I can see your all broken up about this. Perhaps you should just leave it alone. It seems to do nothing more then infuriate you to discuss it.

 

[superpunk]

Vick plead guilty - you have no idea what he plead guilty to. You also made your statement before he plead guilty or "admitted" that he was guilty.

Hoping he gets justice is one thing. Hoping he gets hammered and wastes money on lawyers and gets the book thrown at him (for what - you don't know) is just petty and pathetic.

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

Vick plead guilty - you have no idea what he plead guilty to. You also made your statement before he plead guilty or "admitted" that he was guilty.

Hoping he gets justice is one thing. Hoping he gets hammered and wastes money on lawyers and gets the book thrown at him (for what - you don't know) is just petty and pathetic.

I absolutly made my statement before he admitted guilt. All that means is that my suspicions about the man were correct and yours, well, I guess only you know that.

Who's justice is the question? Yours? My justice is within the lasw of this country. I am not asking for him to get the chair. Only what the law says is the penalty for what he did. What did he do? Well, we know he committed Conspiracy. We just don't know what else he "Admitted" to.

Why do you persist? Clearly, it only makes you angry.

 

[superpunk]

I absolutly made my statement before he admitted guilt. All that means is that my suspicions about the man were correct

You don't have the slightest clue what he plead to. Not yet.

Who's justice is the question? Yours? My justice is within the lasw of this country. I am not asking for him to get the chair. Only what the law says is the penalty for what he did. What did he do? Well, we know he committed Conspiracy. We just don't know what else he "Admitted" to.

The justice of the court system. I'm content to let them do their job. I'm not sitting on the sideline clamoring for "No plea! No plea!" and wishing for him to go through all the things you're wishing for just because....well just because whatever your small reasons are for needing that satisfaction.

Why do you persist? Clearly, it only makes you angry.

I'm not the one that resurrected this thread after deciding not to reply initially, genius. And I'm hardly angry about anything. Don't confuse anger with pitying the pettiness.

 

[peplaw06]

Who's justice is the question? Yours? My justice is within the lasw of this country. I am not asking for him to get the chair. Only what the law says is the penalty for what he did. What did he do? Well, we know he committed Conspiracy. We just don't know what else he "Admitted" to.

The law does not deal in absolutes. The law allows for a range of punishment. Vick's particular range of punishment happens to be up to five years. If he falls within that range, then the justice is "within the laws of this country."

There are all kinds of reasons, both mitigating and aggravating, why the law cannot place strict punishment sentences on defendants. Would you think Vick should get 5 years regardless of whether he were actually killing the dogs, or if someone else was doing it?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

You don't have the slightest clue what he plead to. Not yet.



The justice of the court system. I'm content to let them do their job. I'm not sitting on the sideline clamoring for "No plea! No plea!" and wishing for him to go through all the things you're wishing for just because....well just because whatever your small reasons are for needing that satisfaction.



I'm not the one that resurrected this thread after deciding not to reply initially, genius. And I'm hardly angry about anything. Don't confuse anger with pitying the pettiness.

I know. I didn't know he was guilty either right? That's fine. If you wish to hold to that straw, knock yourself out.

While waiting for you to respond, I took the liberty of checking out the Political Zone and found that you have posted to several threads in that forum. Now, if I understand your earlier justification, it's OK for you to post because the Cowboys are your favorite team and that's the difference between why it's OK for you to post about things that don't concern you but for me, it's because I'm petty, that right? So if this is the case, why post to political threads? Why start a thread about Vick, Feds and RICO at all, in fact?

Oh, I think I was right the first time. I have nothing confused here. You are angry and I suppose that's just your hard luck. I didn't make Vick act like an idiot. I didn't force his hand. If you don't like my view on this, that's OK. Your entitled. Get comfortable with it. Your going to have to live with it for some time I'd say. At least until Vick manages to get out of Prison.

 

[superpunk]

While waiting for you to respond, I took the liberty of checking out the Political Zone and found that you have posted to several threads in that forum. Now, if I understand your earlier justification, it's OK for you to post because the Cowboys are your favorite team and that's the difference between why it's OK for you to post about things that don't concern you but for me, it's because I'm petty, that right? So if this is the case, why post to political threads? Why start a thread about Vick, Feds and RICO at all, in fact?

Do you really not see the difference between me commenting on a current event, and a possible misuse of federal power that could affect anyone...

and you WISHING for Vick to not be offered a plea - instead having to waste money on lawyers and serve big time?

I know that you do. I'm nearly positive you're not that dense.

Oh, I think I was right the first time. I have nothing confused here. You are angry and I suppose that's just your hard luck.

Again - I didn't resurrect this thread, Sherlock. You ducked my question and came back when you mistakenly thought you had some witty retort. Why would I be angry about something so comical?

 

[ABQCOWBOY]

The law does not deal in absolutes. The law allows for a range of punishment. Vick's particular range of punishment happens to be up to five years. If he falls within that range, then the justice is "within the laws of this country."

There are all kinds of reasons, both mitigating and aggravating, why the law cannot place strict punishment sentences on defendants. Would you think Vick should get 5 years regardless of whether he were actually killing the dogs, or if someone else was doing it?

I would like to see the Gov't lean more towards a stiffer penalty as opposed to more leneant. To my way of thinking, he is guilty of Rackatering. He is guilty of illegal gaming and he is guilty of Dog Fighting. The penalty for these far all these far exceeds what he will probably get. Because of this, I would like to see him get a stiffer penalty. I understand that the law will set his sentance but I also understand that this door swings both ways. While Punk might be appauled at anybody wanting Vick to receive 5 years, it is certainly within the scope of what the law deems as justifiable. To my way of thinking, he deserves a stiffer penalty. I would actually like to see him get 3 years and a substantial monitary penalty. We will see what happens.

 

[Crown Royal]

Well, obviously, the decision to take a plea has already been made but since you have asked, I will answer.

I wanted him to take it to trial because I believed that he was guilty and that he would be found as such if he went to trial. It is the way it is supposed to be done in our country, a trial by your peers, as it were. I imagine you have no problem with these methods, yes?

I wanted him to try and fight it because I wanted him to receive the maximum penalty as opposed to the minimum that a plea might bring.

Sorry, no balloons or prizes.

Jury by trial is a right, but it seems unnecessary if you are willing to admit guilt. I personally do not care one way or another whether a plea is taken or something goes to trial. He has now admitted guilt to something, the details of which we don't yet know.